Your orientation

[T PoPTartZz T]

Whether or not it's choice or genetic is not my concern. My concern, however, is
that people tend to shun what they do not understand. I have had experiences
with other males that I would not like to have recreated, and would certainly not
like to have repeated.

I understand how someone may be attracted to someone else of the same gender,
and I accept it. I will in no way condone it, however, unless both parties are
committed to each other and will keep true to each other. That is the very core
of a relationship - honesty and trust. The physical nature is a nice bonus, though.
Of course, like Wolf informed me long ago, with such a relationship, there needn't
be any kind of physical attraction, and therefore would produce a pansexual
relationship. These relationships are by far the most likely to last, since each
individual's interest lies in emotional and psychological attraction.

Both homosexual and heterosexual relationships have equivalent chances of either
lasting until death, or being terminated at any given moment. The only difference
is the factor of reproduction. Most Christ-affiliated religions look down upon the
concept of homosexuality because the Bible tells of how Sodom and Gomorrah
were obliterated because God saw that they were filled with homosexuals. This is
usually where the children either stop listening, or their teachers neglect to tell
the whole truth. Sodomy, commonly understood as homosexual intercourse, is
defined as non-vaginal intercourse, and is meant to include bestiality. The men
of these cities were also guilty of other outstanding sins, such as murder,
blasphemy, and monetary crimes. They were cruel and selfish, and they renounced
the God who created them. Many people who are taught the Bible are not taught
about the other heinous actions of Sodom and Gomorrah. With this new perspective,
one could argue that perhaps being homosexual is not sinful, but the actions one
may take are the cause of being sinful. It can also be assumed that Christians may
oppose homosexuality because they fear a decreased number of Christians in future
generations.

I leave you with this, friends:
With whatever you are given, do your very best. Do not stray from your own ethics
and morals, and be kind to your neighbor. Being judgmental gets you nowhere, and
acting on your anger will only bring you trouble. It does not matter how you are
oriented, but it does matter how you choose to live your life. The golden rule will
bring you happiness (and no, not by selling the plaque itself. It's only gold-plated).

[Masser]

According to the definition of bisexual, I am bisexual. I wouldn't want to marry a dude but I do feel some sexual attraction sometimes. However, I feel stronger attraction towards women.

[Wolf]

{Dictation while I notice a very coveniently placed soap box under his feet}

Very well put Mr. Tartz. I'm going to add "gang-rape" to the list of sins under Sodom, as well as Lot's duty to provide hospitality and sanctuary for his guests.

I believe Mr. Tartz has effectively ended whatever debate might've ceaselessly raged on while Patriot Missiles flew overhead at the enemy SuperCobras and several Iowa-class sea-superiority battleships dueled unmercifully in the turbulent waters stained red by the casualty of war-- causing many an Imperial City resident to wake up in agitation quickly replced by fear, awe, and the words "What the hell are those large metal objects doing in and above Lake Rumare, and why are there lights appearing everywhere with loud noises eminating from their vicinity!?" while looming overhead, and unbeknownst to the civilians, was a rather large ship christened "Enola Gay" with a lethal payload poised to eject from the mighty beast's belly and purge the land below of all horrible conflict!

My thanks to him, as I, for one, am not open to such an idea as the grueling struggle caused by the interplay of rocky foundations. (And believe it or not, that sentence-paragraph is entirely grammatically correct.)

[Cylo]

Bi

And this is one of the few forums I frequent where we're so viciously outnumbered.
Whoah.

[chromalfean]

The men of these cities were also guilty of other outstanding sins, such as murder, blasphemy, and monetary crimes. They were cruel and selfish, and they renounced the God who created them.

and how is our society today so terribly different? whatever our fate, it will be what we deserve.

[Zincroth]

I have to agree with wolf. People who are homosexual are without a doubt people that have had traumatic lives. If you look at the past of homosexuals you will see that they have had some sort of psychological experience that has changed them. Not to say anything about it being bad or good, its just different. Looking at it from a darwinian point of view, homosexuality is unatural because it does not serve to propagate the race. So watever it is exactely who knows but i have a feeling that the debate will worsen in the near future.

[Masser]

There are examples of homosexuality in certain animal species where it actually helps propagate the species. This is a national geographic article describing it.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... etles.html

[Zincroth]

There are examples of homosexuality in certain animal species where it actually helps propagate the species. This is a national geographic article describing it.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... etles.html

This article only goes to prove my point. These behaviors shown are only pre sexual behaviors. Homosexual people will tell you that they are only attracted to men, or women prospectivly. In these animals, the homosexual behavior serves to do many things like get rid of old sperm or show dominence over another male. This is all a prelude to heterosexual sex and propagation not a relationship. This is also in animals not humans, normal human behavior does not need a way to get rid of old sperm and show dominance we have other ways of doing that.

What this all means is that it is most likely a psychological thing and not a natural process.

[Masser]

I don't think you fully read the article, as it mentioned both dominance over another male and getting rid of old sperm as incorrect in light of the new evidence. I also don't imagine beetles have such highly developed psyches as to warrant investigating whether or not it plays a role in their homosexuality.

There are examples of homosexuality in certain animal species where it actually helps propagate the species. This is a national geographic article describing it.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... etles.html

This is all a prelude to heterosexual sex and propagation not a relationship.

What this all means is that it is most likely a psychological thing and not a natural process.

I don't think beetles actually have relationships, and it is not a "prelude" to heterosexual sex, it is yet another way a male can deliver sperm to a female.

[Zincroth]

I don't think you fully read the article, as it mentioned both dominance over another male and getting rid of old sperm as incorrect in light of the new evidence. I also don't imagine beetles have such highly developed psyches as to warrant investigating whether or not it plays a role in their homosexuality.

There are examples of homosexuality in certain animal species where it actually helps propagate the species. This is a national geographic article describing it.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... etles.html

This is all a prelude to heterosexual sex and propagation not a relationship.

What this all means is that it is most likely a psychological thing and not a natural process.

I don't think beetles actually have relationships, and it is not a "prelude" to heterosexual sex, it is yet another way a male can deliver sperm to a female.

Exactely its a means to an end of Heterosexual sex. This is not the pattern of human homosexuality so we can only assume that the two things are different. One being natural and one a human psychological condition. At least that is what i think.

and looking at this article it becomes obvious that comparing this to humans is rediculous. the article even says that you should not compare it to humans. Their behavior is not even homosexual its just a method of breeding. humans on the other hand cannot breed this way no matter how much sex they have.

[Masser]

There are examples of homosexuality in certain animal species where it actually helps propagate the species. This is a national geographic article describing it.
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news ... etles.html

This is all a prelude to heterosexual sex and propagation not a relationship.

What this all means is that it is most likely a psychological thing and not a natural process.

I don't think beetles actually have relationships, and it is not a "prelude" to heterosexual sex, it is yet another way a male can deliver sperm to a female.[/quote]

Exactely its a means to an end of Heterosexual sex. This is not the pattern of human homosexuality so we can only assume that the two things are different. One being natural and one a human psychological condition. At least that is what i think.

and looking at this article it becomes obvious that comparing this to humans is rediculous. the article even says that you should not compare it to humans. Their behavior is not even homosexual its just a method of breeding. humans on the other hand cannot breed this way no matter how much sex they have.[/quote]
The beetle's homosexuality is not a means to an end of heterosexual sex, it is simply an alternative way they can effectively deliver sperm. The sexual habits of the beetles include engaging in homosexual sex, thus, it is homosexual and not just a method of breeding.
Human homosexuality is simply not a psychological "condition", as condition connotes a sense of negativity, that homosexuality is not natural or that it is a problem. There are genetic reasons involved in homosexuality, along with environmental reasons, so it is not simply a psychological affair. Considering that a very important factor in it is genetics, I would say that it is natural.

[Zincroth]

In a way everything is natural, what is not natural in my eyes is something manmade. I argue that homosexuality is a psychological condition that comes generaly from an early life environment or by necessity. By necessity i mean like people who act gay to be different, and dont go saying no one does that because i know people who do. Its like girls acting dumb to be noticed (This is acounts for extreemly little of homosexuals, i just mention it because i have alot of experience with it first hand). Wether you want to see a condition as having a negative connotation or not thats up to you im just saying that in humans it does not serve to assist in procreation as it may in these beetles. In other words it is not a natural alternative to breeding heterosexualy like the beetles but a preference over normal breeding habits. Make no mistake homosexuality does not benefit human breeding.

[The Dog Whisperer]

Oh woe is me, here I had some kind of idea that I might one day have a baby with another guy.
Would be like Arnie in that (horrible) film, Junior.

Is it me or do straight people make a bigger deal about homosexuality? Whether they're pro- or anti-homosexuality.
Maybe I just don't care enough, or I've had longer to come to terms with it, but I've known plenty of people to fuss about it for years...

That's not directed at anyone personally by the way, just a weird observation I've made.
Especially with the anonymity of the net, because people seem to be way more uncomfortable talking about it in real life.

[Zincroth]

Oh woe is me, here I had some kind of idea that I might one day have a baby with another guy.
Would be like Arnie in that (horrible) film, Junior.

Is it me or do straight people make a bigger deal about homosexuality? Whether they're pro- or anti-homosexuality.
Maybe I just don't care enough, or I've had longer to come to terms with it, but I've known plenty of people to fuss about it for years...

That's not directed at anyone personally by the way, just a weird observation I've made.
Especially with the anonymity of the net, because people seem to be way more uncomfortable talking about it in real life.

That is probably because it is so foreign to straight people, look at earlier comments on how they cant imagine being with a man, thats its just the way things are. This whole topic will blow over at somepoint probably ending in better acceptance of gays but no real change in the status quo. It is just interesting to see how people mix their beliefs in science and faiths. Sometimes science does not support something but their faith does so they support it. And vice versa. I dont know where im going with this its just wat im thinking of at the moment.

[Wolf]

I'd like to address of few of your statements, Zincroth, as you have misquoted context and overlooked purpose.

Firstly:

Scientifically, homosexuality is used in many species to prevent overpopulation and, by extension, extinction through the over-use and depletion of resources. You mistake Darwin evolutionary theory to have only the goal of personal propagation when, in fact, the ultimate goal is the survival of the species through adaption and evolution. It is logically progressive, then, to understand that homosexuality does benefit inhuman species as well as humanity.

Secondly:

I have to agree with wolf. People who are homosexual are without a doubt people that have had traumatic lives.

I will ask you not to misquote me in the future; here is my statement in its original context:

There is one known cause of homosexuality, and it is accepted that it is not the only cause.

Sexuality should not be debated, or even processed, as a purely scientific phenomenon. The inclusion of aesthetics, while often distracting to purely logical thought, is necessary for the determination of importance to humanitarian ideology. While sexuality does tie into the concept of propagation, it is also, and even more-so, a topic regarding self-actualization. Humans are social creatures, and the need for humans to have intimate relationships with other humans is paramount to the ability of human beings to function. Since I have absolutely no sexual or social interest in intimacy with women-- and even some repulsion to such-- and yet I do for men, I must socialize with men in order to be mentally healthy.You also seem to be severely overlooking the fact that you're dealing with human beings, Mr. Zincroth, and human beings do not like to be objectified. The fact that you're relating sexuality-- including the prospect of intimacy with someone of the same gender-- to a mere psychological disorder is offensive. You might also want to take time and read through the whole thread, as your statements give the impression that you have not yet:

Sexual orientation is not a definite concept. While I, being a male solely attracted to males, have defined myself in the sexual spectrum, there are many, many more people who have not.

most gay men are gay because that's just what felt right to them.

You are also making the mistake of isolating a naturally dis-isolate concept:

there are even some people who do not deal in gender at all, only personality, so they choose to identify themselves as "pansexual", literally meaning "cross sexual". They cross the boundary lines between gay, straight, and bisexual... pansexual people look to personality, only, to find attraction.

I would suggest that you make sure you're not discarding emotion when dealing with this particular topic, Mr. Zincroth, as it is a topic with heavy foundations in emotion. It is not only erroneous to do such, but it is also ironic. Propagation of our species defines the lowest, most basal instinct within our minds, yielding to all the plethora of emotional knowledge, justice, and pursuit that is humanity.

[chromalfean]

I would love to jump in here, but it would turn into a book. the bottom line is, just about every single arguement made here can be rather quickly and easily dismantled, including yours, wolf. I generally make it a point to stay out of topics like this simply because you're dealing with a subject that's way too personal to people, in general, and they can't separate themselves from the subject for an open, unbiased discussion. sooner or later, somebody feels they or their beliefs are being attacked and it quickly turns antagonistic at this point, which is what I see happening here. what I find especially ironic is the tendancy of self-proclaimed "liberals" and "free-thinkers" who wave their flags under the banners of martyrdom and oppression, and espouse the policies of mutual-respect, to be the first to single out "conservatives", or anybody else who's views differ from theirs and begin trying to take them apart, hiding behind thin veneers of intellectual superiority.

[Wolf]

By all means, continue with your rhetoric if you wish to dismantle all arguments. While this may not be a truly unbiased discussion, no discourse ever is. Though, I do find it ironic that one such as yourself, whilst claiming to be able to trample underfoot all opposition, makes a note that contention is present and condemns such a prospect. It is neither enough to observe that "liberals" or "free-thinkers" claim as they do, yet act in such a prejudicial way. While I in no way condone such action, I can give you insight as to why it is done, as I personally have grown very tired of hearing the phrase "God be with you" at all hours of the day. This is not to offend those that do say it, but when I find that my belief system is constantly challenged by those who, by their very definition, condemn me for the lack of their own in me, I grow very embittered towards their system itself.

Regarding the issue of sexuality, I myself am impervious to one point: I am singularly, socially, sexually, incorrigibly, and ultimately attracted to males, and I intend to carry through on my predisposition to the point of lovingly marrying one.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Before this debate turns into a yell fest, I will ask a very simple question.

Why is it so hard for people to accept others as they are?

I will jump in at key moments to voice my opinion

I personally have grown very tired of hearing the phrase "God be with you" at all hours of the day.

May the Force be with you!

[Wolf]

May the Force be with you!

Oh lord... the only thing worse!

[T PoPTartZz T]

Scientifically, homosexuality is used in many species to prevent overpopulation and, by extension, extinction through the over-use and depletion of resources. You mistake Darwin evolutionary theory to have only the goal of personal propagation when, in fact, the ultimate goal is the survival of the species through adaption and evolution. It is logically progressive, then, to understand that homosexuality does benefit inhuman species as well as humanity.

I am thoroughly subscribing to this theory now. I've never looked at it from this point
of view, and it makes a little more sense this way. To control overpopulation and
such, homosexual relationships do play a large part in conserving resources for future
generations since they cannot reproduce. Thank you, Wolf, for broadening my horizons
once again!

[chromalfean]

Scientifically, homosexuality is used in many species to prevent overpopulation and, by extension, extinction through the over-use and depletion of resources. You mistake Darwin evolutionary theory to have only the goal of personal propagation when, in fact, the ultimate goal is the survival of the species through adaption and evolution. It is logically progressive, then, to understand that homosexuality does benefit inhuman species as well as humanity.

I am thoroughly subscribing to this theory now. I've never looked at it from this point of view, and it makes a little more sense this way. To control overpopulation and such, homosexual relationships do play a large part in conserving resources for future generations since they cannot reproduce. Thank you, Wolf, for broadening my horizons once again!

it's too late ...

[Wolf]

You're welcome! I'm always glad to be able to give someone something they see as valuable (and beneficial)!

[T PoPTartZz T]

What he said

My response

it's too late ...

Meaning?

[chromalfean]

meaning the bandwagon of ignorance has already begun forming ...

[Dark Lord Cam]

What happened to the debate? <.<