Lore General Discussion!

[SeaGtGruff]

Have the human looking khajiit been retconned?

Just to be clear, do you mean the human-looking Khajiit from Arena? And we could also mention the rather human-looking Argonians from Arena-- although they're a little less human-looking than the Khajiit as far as facial appearance and skin.

I like to think that something dark and terrible happened between ESO and Arena, resulting in Orcs and "Lizard Men" being treated as monsters. Of course, a lot of the enemies in Arena are standard humans, like Warriors, Mages, Nightblades, etc., so "monsters" might be too strong of a word for how Orcs and Lizard Men are perceived; maybe "outlaws" is more accurate.

And somehow the human-looking offspring of Khajiit and humans became the predominant "Khajiit," and the human-looking offspring of Argonians and humans became the predominant "Argonians." Then, over time, the human-looking offspring became marginalized or died off, and the "regular" Argonians and Khajiit became predominant again.

[MidbossVyers]

Aren't lizard men not even actual Argonians, but a completely separate species?

[SeaGtGruff]

Aren't lizard men not even actual Argonians, but a completely separate species?

They probably are, in the lore. But I thought the question basically had to do with the differences between the races in Arena and the later games-- well, the Khajiit, at least-- and how the lore has been expanded, modified, and retconned? So in that sense, the Lizard Men of Arena seem a lot more similar in appearance to Argonians of later games than the more human-looking ones do. ESO has several different varieties of Argonians, but none of them resemble the tailless, humanish-looking Argonians of Arena.

[MidbossVyers]

If Morihaus was a winged minotaur, why does his statue look like this? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-misc-M ... Statue.jpg Also, the Skyrim loading screens about Morthal refer to him as a "Nord" hero.

[Imbalance]

If Morihaus was a winged minotaur, why does his statue look like this? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-misc-M ... Statue.jpg Also, the Skyrim loading screens about Morthal refer to him as a "Nord" hero.

So much obout Oblivion makes me think that the game's art department had too little access or regard for preceding lore - too much focus on making it pretty; not enough concern about making it right.

[legoless]

If Morihaus was a winged minotaur, why does his statue look like this? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-misc-M ... Statue.jpg Also, the Skyrim loading screens about Morthal refer to him as a "Nord" hero.

Older depictions show him to be a winged bull. I figure the loading screen means he is a hero of the Nords (who love Kyne), not that he is a literal Nord.

So much obout Oblivion makes me think that the game's art department had too little access or regard for preceding lore - too much focus on making it pretty; not enough concern about making it right.

I don't think it's anything of the sort. It makes perfect sense for the Empire to Imperialise their cultural heroes, particularly since the Alessian Order persecuted minotaurs and attempted to destroy all mention of the involvement of non-humans in the early part of the Empire. The modern Cyrod looks at a minotaur and sees a wild beast; they kill the descendants of Morihaus for sport in the Imperial City Arena. It is in-universe historical revisionism that has led to a statue depicting Morihaus as a man, not lazy art design.

It's also not the only example of this. The Lord's Mail, the Armor of Morihaus, has been human-shaped since Arena. I wouldn't blame Oblivion for inventing the concept of him being a man.

[MidbossVyers]

You know those multiple choice questions where you can technically guess the correct answer whilst being completely ignorant? I feel that's the case with Dunmer. An ignoramus distrust dark elves because of their race. A person with partial knowledge correctly believes that one should not judge anyone else based on their race. However, someone who knows Dunmer culture knows that 2/3 dark elven gods literally tell their followers to murder their friends (see Mephala and Boethia in Skyrim), and therefore, those who follow such a pantheon cannot be so readily trusted.

[MidbossVyers]

Just to confirm, given this: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Racial_Phylogeny someone with an Imperial mother and a Nord father would end up with Imperial traits, but a Nord name, correct?

[BetaB17]

Names are more contingent on culture and circumstance. Its how you can end up with a Khajit with an imperial name, or a nord with Orcish. As far as those born under mixed blood, its ultimately a toss up really. Like I imagine given your example.. it could just be like a preference to like irl, or there could be other external factors like above.

Tldr the answer is yes

[MidbossVyers]

Posting this now, so I don't forget, but Merry Saturalia:

[MidbossVyers]

Cyrodilic nobles pooped their silken pants when the Longhouse emperors legalized Daedra worship, so how did the Septim emperors successfully do so?

[BetaB17]

Wait, what??

Also I imagine the emperors managed to justify either by the costs of trying to enforce it, and subsequently over plans to still enforce other laws that likely the more dangerous worshipers would still be guilty of.. like ritualistic murder

[MidbossVyers]

You didn't know? https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Longhouse_Emperors and then https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Modern_Heretics

[BetaB17]

Never played ESO so the Longhouse is new to me

[MidbossVyers]

It would be amazing if Bethesda gave the storyline of the rise of Tiber Septim over to Nintendo and had them make a Fire Emblem game out of it, like full Fire Emblem otherwise, but the story is the rise of the Septim Empire.

[MidbossVyers]

While legendary heroes (Pelinal, Tiber Septim, etc.) were supposedly incarnations of Lorkhan, this does not apply to the player heroes, right?

[MidbossVyers]

Ocheeva once said that there is no divinity beyond Sithis. When you think about it, that actually makes sense. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_in_a_vat This is a fairly well-known philosophical thought experiment, but one resulting theory is if the scientist in this hypothesis who has that brain in a jar is himself a brain in a jar and that scientist is himself a brain in a jar and so and so on and so forth.

Given this, I'm reminded of those stories where there is an afterlife where you can still die. For example, in Spawn, Clown tells Spawn that he can still die, if he's beheaded, and that's supposedly a permanent death. Ditto with Prinnies in Disgaea who died before making for their sins. However, for people who never believed in an afterlife to begin with, they would have already considered their first death to be the end to begin with. To find out that there is not only an afterlife but one where they can still die would result in questioning in that afterlife has an afterlife, and so and on and so forth.

In the Knights of the Nine expansion of Elder Scrolls Oblivion, according to the Prophet, upon destroying Umaril's spirit form, his soul is "cast into the void" and destroyed, but if you're already a member of the Dark Brotherhood, you're already sending souls to the void on the regular and desire such an outcome for your own soul after you die. However, from what we see in Skyrim, those who serve Sithis loyally and are sent to the void can come back as spectral assassins. Basically, my thought process in this is like the consideration for enlightenment, but while enlightenment usually provides the mental image of going "up", this is more how low can you go. The after-after-after-after-after-afterlife.

[BetaB17]

Its worth pointing out that the DB arent devoid of outside influences. They are still very much at the service of Mephala, who in turn has a close relationship to Sithis/Padomay. So its not wrong to assume that their belief system when it comes to their service and the Void itself is being mislead, even if it has tangible effects. Though unlike the Morag Tong, the DB do clearly idolize Sithis more directly(tho they still worship via a patron)

Its by my understanding that the Argonians n Hist have the most pure interpretation of Sithis and in how they choose to represent him(tho their creation myth leaves more to be desired)

Given what we already understand of the Void itself, something that both predates Chaos or Stasis, unless something can isolate itself to form its own distinct realm, just like Padomay/Anu, they'll fade into the void, to be sent outside of the known realms n of creation is to meet their fate(or mercy). And while yes.. technically everything is encompassed by the void, Daedra for example arent exactly being sent to the void at their deaths, but to the region that Oblivion occupies.

Mind ya I'm not saying that Sithis cant have his own domain or realm, just look at how many Lorkhan has contrary to Mundas. But its just far more plausible that souls sacrificed or loyal to Sithis are being claimed by Mephala n fated to a realm in oblivion. So much of it fits in theme

Also on Umaril, it makes sense if you kill his spiritual form, his animus just like with daedra, then you effectively cut off his means of rebirth and actually deliver death. Whether its directly, or banishment to the void doesnt really change the result. If anything, being banished to the void by having both body n soul destroyed probably fits the definition of void, after all there cant be an afterlife if there is nothing left

[legoless]

In the Knights of the Nine expansion of Elder Scrolls Oblivion, according to the Prophet, upon destroying Umaril's spirit form, his soul is "cast into the void" and destroyed, but if you're already a member of the Dark Brotherhood, you're already sending souls to the void on the regular and desire such an outcome for your own soul after you die. However, from what we see in Skyrim, those who serve Sithis loyally and are sent to the void can come back as spectral assassins. Basically, my thought process in this is like the consideration for enlightenment, but while enlightenment usually provides the mental image of going "up", this is more how low can you go. The after-after-after-after-after-afterlife.

I think the key point to take away from Umaril's fate is the destruction of his spirit. Being thrown into the void clearly does not always result in the destruction of the spirit, per the spectral assassins you mentioned. In ESO's Markarth, individuals whose souls were sucked into the Void were literally restored to life, fully whole despite their ordeal.

[MidbossVyers]

From what the Prophet and Sir Thedret say, they seem to think that a "destroyed" soul gets sent to the Void, which they seem to believe is interchangeable with a state of nonexistence, given that they do not believe in Sithis, as the Dark Brotherhood do. I mean, while the Prophet and Sir Thedret seem to hold a more religious view, even the scholarly Nelacar does not seem to think that the Soul Cairn exists, as he believes that Malyn's soul is in that aforementioned state of nonexistence, despite that the fact that Dragonborn and the Battlespire Apprentice can straight up travel to where soul-trapped souls eventually go. The only other method of "destroying" a soul appears to be being eaten by Alduin, which results in that soul getting pooped out into the next kalpa. I just find stories that have afterlives and souls existing past the body odd when they also add an extra story point where a soul in the afterlife can be "destroyed", like the Prinny extermination story point from Disgaea 4.

If someone who never believed in an afterlife to begin with reaches the afterlife but are told that if their soul is destroyed, there is no after-afterlife, they would consider that claim ridiculous because it is an essentially an echo of what they heard when they were alive. In other words, for a mortal taught that there is no afterlife but then finds out that there is, why should the next "layer" of such a teaching be true, if the first layer were proven false? That's why I consider the Dark Brotherhood's worship of Sithis to be the ultimate power in the Elder Scrolls universe because they worship that which other faiths that have other afterlives fear, even with their belief of their own afterlife. Though, I guess Alduin worship is similar, but unlike the Dark Brotherhood's spectral assassins, "new kalpa souls" never come back to the current kalpa to prove that point.

[MidbossVyers]

"Ayleid Empire" always sounds weird to me because one of the main reasons that they were defeated by the Alessian (actual) Empire was because they weren't a united empire, but rather a loose coalition of mostly independent city-states. The most obvious aspect of this is the lack of an emperor, only several (generally rival) sorcerer kings.

[MidbossVyers]

You want to see Redoran mental gymnastics about slavery in live action? https://www.reddit.com/r/ElderScrolls/c ... ?context=3 We don't support slavery. We just support the tradition of it (along with other traditions, of course). LOL.

[MidbossVyers]

With the recent Creation Club update, in regards to the Crusader Relics, where sinners can equip the items, just with a massive debuff, I just realized that, for Pelinal, those armor pieces weren't designed for protection. They were designed for restriction. It's a fairly common trope where an overpowered character has limiters to prevent him for being more OP. Which is to say, in terms of Pelinal himself, the less armor he wears, the stronger he becomes. Official art only shows him fully armored, but lot of books say that he has white hair, stained brown with blood, and a chest gaping open to show no heart, but neither would actually be known, unless someone saw him like that.

[MidbossVyers]

Generally speaking, warrior factions are portrayed positively, but I note that the warrior factions of both Oblivion (Fighters Guild) and Skyrim (Companions) have tortured (Ajum-Kajin) or implied to have tortured (whoever Aela was referring to when she was talking about prices and pain thresholds when researching the locations of the werewolf totems) someone.

[MidbossVyers]

I love how this https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Akatosh "Akatosh isn't a Jealous God" just takes a Bible quote and turns it on its head. Yahweh is jealous. Akatosh is not.