On Stormcloaks and racism.

[Serpya_Wolfgand]

So, there is no questioning that the leadership of the Stormcloaks is, indeed, deeply racist. However, with that said, I can still think of several non-racist reasons why one would choose to join the Stormcloaks, especially if you look at it from your PC perspective.

I mean, think about it: When you are-Introduced-You are about to be executed for assosciating with a terrorist group, with no right to a trial, for basically just being on the wrong place, wrong time. I will take a moment to say that, if your character IS a nord, this is debateably a racist thing from the part of the Imperials to do on its own right. If your character ISNT a Nord... Well, I guess it isnt racist, but also, it would be kind of stupid to execute a -Argonian-For a example, just in case they MIGHT be assosciated with this organization that, supposedly, hates your face. And at either case, it is just... Objectively a fascist thing to do.

On the topic of a Argonian PC, for all of the Stormcloaks racism, -Most-Stormcloaks, from what I recall, will actually treat your PC, regardless of their race, with respect, provided you show loyalty to the cause of a Skyrim free of Imperial rule. And, well... It is quite likely that, if you choose to join the Stormcloaks, you will only find out about their "racism"-After-You are already in.( I sure did, on my first playthrough. ).

I am meandering. But the main point is, a lot of people seem to portray the Stormcloaks as being the unambiguous evil because of their racism and "treasenous" tendencies. However, they are "treasonous" against a empire that... They dont have much of a reason to be loyal to, from my perspective. The Empire got where it was through war and bloodshed, after all, conquering Skyrim through its military might, and showing itself willing to execute people on very flimsy evidence. What loyalty does-Any-Nord owes to the Emperor? And, while the racism part is certainly vile, well... I actually think that the story of a Stormcloak who originally joined the organization because they were screwed over by the Empire( Like, you know, you, the PC was ) and actually had no particular hatred for non-Nordic races, and in fact, once they begun finding out about how racist and hatefull the Stormcloak leadership was... Well, they were still loyal to the cause of a free Skyrim, but they also honestly became dedicated to reforming the Stormcloaks from inside.

The main point I am going for is, I notice a lot of people portray the Stormcloaks as the unambiguous villains of the story, like they were Nord Nazis, pretty much. This isnt how I see things. I see it as more of a conflict between two very morally flawed factions.

[ToTheMadhouse]

Skyrim is flawed. Also the Stormcloaks are fighting for self governance and autonomy in the face of an empire that has bowed to the Thalmor. Its not uncommon knowledge that the Nords generally have a grave disdain for all elves after millenia of war with Morowind`s chimer and Dunmer, snow elves and the Dwemer. The reason Skyrim heralds the empire in high regard is due to one of their native sons being its most famed bloodlines progenitor (Tiber Septim/Talos) not to mention that the Nords have done incredibly well while under its banner as have most of Tamriel through both trade and import and the importation of imperial (civilized) Law if nothing else. Also to regard your point, yes they are both incredibly flawed factions in an incredibly flawed narrative. I`m not really sure of the OG posts intention? What is the question here? Are there reason to join the Stormcloaks as a non native son? Well that lies in your own justifications to decide. Also in response to "-Most-Stormcloaks, from what I recall, will actually treat your PC, regardless of their race, with respect" lies with Modern Bethesda`s fault in an inability to commit to difficult or compex narratives

[Serpya_Wolfgand]

I mean, if you want to get meta, the actual reason Stormcloaks will treat you with respect even if you are not a Nord is because the developers could not be arsed to write a different set of dialogue for the Stormcloaks for non-Nord characters.

BUT! Because meta reasons are boring, we have to take the story as written and try to make sense of it as it exists rather then chalk it up to "The writers were lazy on this one" :p.

It could have something to do, ironically, with Nord culture. Nords are suppose to greatly respect strenght and courage. Indeed, this is what lured so many Nords to the Stormcloak cause on the first place: They seen the empire agreeing to the deal with the Altmeri dominion as a sign of cowardice. And many nords would not want to follow a ruler who they deemed as "cowardly".

So, it might be that, for all of their racism, the Stormcloaks are willing to respect the Dragonborn specifically because, well. You are the Dragonborn. Going about slaiyng dragons takes guts. Nords respect people with guts. Screw if you are a Khajit, you are just that great of a warrior that they have to at least grudgingly admit you deserved their respect.

[ToTheMadhouse]

I`m of the standard that to excuse is to enable. And like the friend who lets you down , Bethesda needs to step up or be left behind. I think even in the smallest ways we shouldn't actually disavow our standards that for an Elder Scrolls they haven't managed to replicate for 15 years now. If anything I honestly worry greatly because like you I love the series, I`m just not critically incompetent enough to enjoy its latest entries attempts at narrative, lore continuity and world building. And neither are you. We deserve better

[Serpya_Wolfgand]

It is more that, in a conversation about the story of ES, and the general implications of the interaction between the factions, givng a justification along the lines of "Obviously, the developers couldnt be arsed to write this the way they should have" would be, in my opinion, just a boring justification. If you want to talk about the Stormcloaks and how "justified" they are, we must talk to then as they are written within the context of this world, not about "How they would have been written if the developpers cared to keep it consistent.". Not because their writing is flawless, but because the latter would go into especulation.

Honestly, the reason I made this thread is because, not to get into details, but on some other communities I go to, a lot of people treat the Stormcloaks as the unambiguous villains because of their racism. I guess the point I was triyng to make was that A: While the Stormcloaks arent exactly saints, the Empire as written was quite fascist on their own right, and B: There are plenty of reasons why someone with no particular feelings against non-nords would want to join the Stormcloaks. I guess I was arguing in favour of why I see it as a more morally ambiguous conflict, that is why.( And yes, I did made my first run a Stormcloak run. )

[ToTheMadhouse]

If they were truly that bad they would wipe out the Dark Elves in the city. I think you are right in saying it is just a case of "You`re one of them until you`re one of us" and there really isn't much more too it, again though down too an inability to actually perform by Bethesda. Coincidentally i came across a video on this exact subject yesterday night https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwgsQArMWsU. But as the game is, With political flares chewing at their heels as well as an ongoing resentment for fighting even their own kin it`s probably not helped the cause much as paranoia and vicious embitterment take hold like winters cold frost and divided even the strongest of Nord bonds. However that`s me Embellishing on behalf of Bethesda seeing as they never presented it well enough themselves

[Tingz0r]

Here's my stupid take.

In short, it's complicated if you read into it, but the game is structured in such a way that it allows players to choose either faction and still experience basically the same game. As such, I think a lot of people who insist "Empire good, Stormcloaks racist" get that impression because the Empire has pretty much been the good guys up to this point. When threatened by change, most people will stick to what they know, even if it's bad for them.

The thing is, Skyrim starts off strongly suggesting that the Empire is now an antagonistic force against your character. From the color of their uniforms to their hinted association with people wearing black hoods, the first moments of the game present them as bad. You wake up (yet again) a prisoner to the Empire, but no kindhearted emperor or merciful release from your bonds awaits you this time. Your only friend in the world is a fellow prisoner named Ralof, a nord who, like you, is a victim of a now sinister, murderous Empire. The Imperials line you up for execution, despite having no reason to kill you in the first place, and their leader, General Tullius, establishes himself as a villain.

"Ulfric Stormcloak. Some here in Helgen call you a hero. But a hero doesn't use a power like the Voice to murder his king and usurp his throne. You started this war, plunged Skyrim into chaos, and now the Empire is going to put you down, and restore the peace."

These lines of dialogue are very important to setting the stage of the game.

1. 'Some call you a hero, but...'

• This is meant to be read as, 'you may be a good guy, but my faction doesn't like you.' Based on how the Empire is presenting itself, this means that they are the enemy of the hero.

2. "...power like the Voice"

• Note that Tullius refers to the power to shout as "the Voice." Given what little we know about the state of affairs in Skyrim at this point, "the Voice" can be interpreted as 'the voice of the people.' Supporting this is the fact that Ulfric, the leader of the rebellion, is gagged and cannot speak. This lends itself to portraying the Empire, the invading force, as intending to suppress the natives. The next point plays into this.

3. "...the Empire is going to put you down, and restore the peace."

• General Tullius suggests that killing Ulfric is all that is required for the Empire to take control of Skyrim. The people who call Skyrim their home and are willing to fight for it will surely be silenced if the person whose name they rally under is put to death. This is a classic case of the antagonist arrogantly underestimating the powers of good while overstating their own capabilities.
  Spoiler:

  
  YouTube Link

During the opening sequence, the Imperials are given two warnings from the approaching dragon, but they ignore it until it lands right on top of them and starts killing them. The Empire is represented by a symbol of a Akatosh, the dragon god, and they have a history of being aided by him. The way the player is spared death by a dragon attacking the Imperials is symbolic of the fall of the Empire. The player has now been given several reasons to believe they should be fighting against the Empire, and are given the choice to follow the friendly Ralof or the deceptively sympathetic Hadvar. For an ineloquent breakdown of why even Hadvar is a true antagonist to the player, see this post.

The modern concept of "racism" isn't something that truly holds weight in the Elder Scrolls universe, where racial differences are a deep rooted, cultural point of contention across all of the planet's inhabitants. The main points someone who insists on the Stormcloaks being racist probably include the fact that dunmer and argonians are segregated within Windhelm (which was preceded 200 years prior by the Imperial city of Leyawiin), and the expression that Skyrim "belongs to the nords." In truth, these points are nothing when compared to the history of the elves, whose sense of racial superiority you get to experience first-hand in Skyrim and Morrowind. "The elves" is a broad term generally used in Skyrim to refer to the Aldmeri Dominion, the true cause of all contention between the Stormcloaks and Imperials. On top of that, elves have been antagonistic toward pretty much every other race throughout history, so it should be expected for someone to hate "the elves," although it should also be expected that the use of this term doesn't mean "all elves." This also applies to "the Imperials" and "the nords," which terms would likely be used to refer to the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

Whether or not you believe that the ability to join the Stormcloaks as a non-nord is baked into the game to allow you to experience it no matter what race you choose, the fact is that the Stormcloaks do accept you, both in the beginning of the game and when you join their forces. This suggests that any animosity between the nords and the other races who call themselves citizens of Skyrim might stem from the fact that people of those other races have yet to support the defense of Skyrim and are therefore either shunned or treated with mutual ambivalence.

Post 420 ya bois.

[ToTheMadhouse]

While I Commend your efforts I seriously wouldn't waste your time trying to make something more of it than what is actually there. The old adage of "Polishing a turd" springs to mind

[MidbossVyers]

The main point I am going for is, I notice a lot of people portray the Stormcloaks as the unambiguous villains of the story, like they were Nord Nazis, pretty much

Yeah, those people are not worthy of discussion. The Stormcloaks are not the Nazis. The Stormcloaks are not the American Confederacy either. Within recent (in-game) history, the only 2 groups that reminded of them are both elven. Nazis would be the Thalmor, and the Confederacy would be the pro-slavery factions of Morrowind. Now, if we're going with authorized extralegal executions, that would be the also elven Morag Tong and the Argonian Shadowscales. People who call the Stormcloaks "unambiguous villains" probably aren't fans of Ysgramor, Pelinal, or even Tiber Septim either.

[ToTheMadhouse]

those people are not worthy of discussion

I dont think that`s quite the way to go about it. Every point of view is worth the time to listen to and debate. I dont think relating fantasy factions to real life political groups is a good idea. i think if anything its probably hindering an ability to see more behind the presented infrormation. Example "Thalmor are nazis" springs to mind. Don`t forget that there are probably still some Altmer among the Thalmor who remember the Tiber wars and have held a bitter resentment ever since the Numidium annihilated them. As far as they`re concerned they`ve been forced into subjugation by a power hungry Human monster that has since set himself as an object of worship.

[MidbossVyers]

I'm sorry, but content, like this: https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/20 ... m/77862909 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5uufycdvwA tends to make me puke. When I say "Nazi", I, at the very least, have a very specific definition in mind. I don't even consider most... well-dressed imperialists Nazis, even those who actually served in the WWII German army, like my friend's grandfather. For me, Nazi implies obsession with racial purity. In Elder Scrolls, I find that only the elven powers are that... racially specific, namely the Thalmor, given that even the dark elven Ordinators seem to factor in birthplace, rather than race, when calling the Nerevarine "outlander scum". I guess that also resulted in Bretons being counted as humans, instead of elves. Also, this might be a chicken or the egg question, but wasn't the reason that the Aldmeri Dominion refused to negotiate with Tiber Septim because he was human? Even the dark elves were willing to agree to an Armistice.

[ToTheMadhouse]

Might also have just been they were happy not being part of his empire for reasons of self autonomy and/or insert other various reasons . I guess that`s a debate in and of itself. Also straight up the Altmer are obsessed with genealogy. As i remember its so they can breed for traits closest to that to the Aldmer, to such a degree that even there names are equivalent to numbering. I don`t see how it makes you sick. Its just a stupid meme But i would say you`re not helping the issue by looking at TES through an IRL political lens. You could do it with any number of relevant topics and argue it to sense until you`re reasoning that Master Borri is actually Dame Edna and then it becomes a game theory or fudge muppet lore video (no offence to anyone ).Just take it as it is, the rest really is not necessary

[MidbossVyers]

More like the Aldmeri Dominion was just salty that a "mere human" was better at the game of conquest than they were.

[Geoffredus]

Hi everyone...first post, but been using UESP for a lo-o-o-o-o-ng time!

"Also in response to "-Most-Stormcloaks, from what I recall, will actually treat your PC, regardless of their race, with respect" lies with Modern Bethesda`s fault in an inability to commit to difficult or comp(l)ex narrative"

I agree with this statement, but I wanted to mention that, here in 2022, we now have a way to, rather easily, insert our own versions of stories. Using the mods "NPC Party" (I'm certain other mods could work for this too, like Phendrix's stuff) and "xVA Synth" (xVA is not so much a mod as it is a speech generator), if a person decides to change the story they certainly could.

This is one main aspect of my Skyrim play today, using speech generation to "fix" narratives I feel need more backstory.

Long story short, I create narratives to explain many holes in the Skyrim experience. Want to sell a horse you somehow found? Using xVA Synth, the console (to simulate receiving coin), and the Creation Kit to create some random-firing lines, you too could create a simple mod to have stable owners negotiate with you over how much you want for that horse (even more sophisticated users could use scripting to avoid the console, but I haven't gone that far and I prefer spending hours playing as opposed to hours learning the finer aspects of Python).

Trying to explain a game glitch? Use xVA and create a small mod to add some dialogue and some bull$#!t to explain it away!

Finally, while I have not done this yet in game (recently, I've been playing almost 10 years now), if I ever were to join the Stormcloaks, now-a-days I would create a dialogue for Ulfric to quiz me on "why would an Altmer want to join the Stormcloaks"...maybe even some dialogue quest to prove I'm worthy. I have only a neophyte's knowledge of modding Skyrim, but I can tell you that there are many possibilities if one wants to seek them out! Even though this thread is more than one year old, I wanted to make this point.

Regards,

Jeff

[MidbossVyers]

Funny. I found that a lot of Legion supporters, during the time of Skyrim, when it comes down to it, actually do hate Talos. FYI, I don't side with Stormcloaks because I consider myself a child of Talos... I side with the Stormcloaks because I consider myself a child of Lorkhan, ergo a grandchild of Sithis. Hail Sithis.