Skyrim General Discussion

[BetaB17]

I'm still on the vote that they are either descendants from Akavir, or entirely native to the island post seperation. The fact that they're not seen anywhere else, not even the northern reach of Skyrim or the other frozen islands, is what makes them an interesting case. (Since evolutionarily, there should be some of them still on the mainland, since the island was originally apart of it)

[SeaGtGruff]

Rieklings appear on the mainland of Tamriel in the Elder Scrolls Online, which is set before any of the other games. The Wiki mentions that they're found in Eastmarch, but they're also found in Wrothgar. This, plus the fact that they appear only on Solstheim in the "later" games, might suggest the following theory:

The Rieklings originated on Atmora or some other land to the north of Tamriel, but migrated to northern Tamriel long ago when their homeland disappeared, preferring to live in the icy northernmost regions of Tamriel. Perhaps they were kept as slaves by the Nedic peoples of Atmora, and either escaped to northern Tamriel or were brought there by their masters. Or perhaps they were always in aggressive competition with the Nedic peoples. After reaching Tamriel, they were gradually attacked, displaced, and marginalized to the point of near-extinction by man and mer, such that by the time of Morrowind: Bloodmoon and Skyrim: Dragonborn they survive only on Solstheim.

[Nir]

Rieklings appear on the mainland of Tamriel in the Elder Scrolls Online, which is set before any of the other games. The Wiki mentions that they're found in Eastmarch, but they're also found in Wrothgar. This, plus the fact that they appear only on Solstheim in the "later" games, might suggest the following theory:

The Rieklings originated on Atmora or some other land to the north of Tamriel, but migrated to northern Tamriel long ago when their homeland disappeared, preferring to live in the icy northernmost regions of Tamriel. Perhaps they were kept as slaves by the Nedic peoples of Atmora, and either escaped to northern Tamriel or were brought there by their masters. Or perhaps they were always in aggressive competition with the Nedic peoples. After reaching Tamriel, they were gradually attacked, displaced, and marginalized to the point of near-extinction by man and mer, such that by the time of Morrowind: Bloodmoon and Skyrim: Dragonborn they survive only on Solstheim.

That's a good theory. Considering Rieklings were added with the Dragonborn DLC and are now present in ESO, you make a good case for their origins. It's interesting that there aren't in-game books about them. Not that I know of, anyway.

[SeaGtGruff]

My other theory is that the Rieklings originated on Tamriel and either preferred the inhospitable northern areas or perhaps were pushed into those areas by the Snow Elves.

Then, after the Nords moved into northern Tamriel and the Snow Elves eventually disappeared, the Nords pushed the Rieklings completely off of the mainland, leaving only a few to survive on Solstheim.

[Nir]

My other theory is that the Rieklings originated on Tamriel and either preferred the inhospitable northern areas or perhaps were pushed into those areas by the Snow Elves.

Then, after the Nords moved into northern Tamriel and the Snow Elves eventually disappeared, the Nords pushed the Rieklings completely off of the mainland, leaving only a few to survive on Solstheim.

I'd like to think the Reiklings were pushed into more harsher environments by the Snow Elves and then eventually the migrating Atmorans/Nords. I wouldn't be surprised if the Atmorans/Nords thought the Rieklings were another type of elf and did the same thing to them as they did to the Snow Elves. And like you state, the Reiklings eventually found themselves on Solstheim with few surviving numbers.

[SeaGtGruff]

Yeah, the fact that the Nords and Bretons don't (as far as we know) seem to have any cultural memories related to the Rieklings would argue against my "Rieklings as slaves of the Nedes" theory, since you'd think the Nedes and their descendants would have passed down stories-- if not actual written history-- about all of that.

The fact that in Morrowind: Bloodmoon it's said that some people think the Rieklings are the Snow Elves would suggest that (1) the Nedes and their descendants had no close knowledge of the Rieklings; and (2) the Rieklings may have lived in close proximity to the Snow Elves, although not necessarily in harmony with them. The hostile and aggressive nature of the Rieklings suggests that they may have a long and bloody history of fighting for their right to survive.

A modern real-life parallel to the Rieklings might be the primitive tribe living on the North Sentinel Island, who were so recently in the news. Other parallels might be primitive tribes living in remote areas of South America.

My theory that the Rieklings may have originated on Tamriel was actually my first one. But after I read up about other continents and the existence of Atmora to the north of Tamriel, I started wondering if they might have originated from there.

[Nir]

Yeah, the fact that the Nords and Bretons don't (as far as we know) seem to have any cultural memories related to the Rieklings would argue against my "Rieklings as slaves of the Nedes" theory, since you'd think the Nedes and their descendants would have passed down stories-- if not actual written history-- about all of that.

Good point. Cultural memories are a common trend in Elder Scrolls. If the Nedes enslaved Rieklings, we would've had some in-game sources on the topic.

The fact that in Morrowind: Bloodmoon it's said that some people think the Rieklings are the Snow Elves would suggest that (1) the Nedes and their descendants had no close knowledge of the Rieklings; and (2) the Rieklings may have lived in close proximity to the Snow Elves, although not necessarily in harmony with them. The hostile and aggressive nature of the Rieklings suggests that they may have a long and bloody history of fighting for their right to survive.

I think the folks in Bloodmoon probably couldn't tell the difference between Snow Elves and Rieklings, as, at the time, there hadn't been any confirmed sightings of Snow Elves (until Dawnguard). I think Rieklings are a type of goblin, rather than an elf, so I would take what is said in Bloodmoon with a grain of salt. However, I agree that there might have been some contact between the Snow Elves and the Rieklings, if not hostile contact.

My theory that the Rieklings may have originated on Tamriel was actually my first one. But after I read up about other continents and the existence of Atmora to the north of Tamriel, I started wondering if they might have originated from there.

I think Rieklings lived in northern Tamriel but had hostile contact with both the Snow Elves and the migrating Atmorans, which eventually resulted in the Rieklings habiting Solstheim.

[Imbalance]

I want to say they're goblins. No in-game proof, of course, but gobbos have been around since Arena, and we have it on record that Bethesda's first foray was very heavily influenced by Dungeons & Dragons, which, in turn, was influenced by Tolkien. Goblins just happen to be one of those default monsters, seemingly universal to fantasy fiction, but they almost all boil down to ugly, hateful, XP providers. Rieklings fit that role and lore, just in a colder setting. The thing that would seal it for me in TES is if there was any evidence at all of Malakath worship, but that weird horse cart idol just isn't quite the same.

One could argue that the Falmer might as well be goblins, too, but we do at least have well defined background justifications for not lumping them together automatically. For that reason I would say that Rieklings are not Falmer.

Now, if you want something completely off-the-wall, what if Rieklings are to goblins as Dunmer are to mer? Just imagine that at some point in history they completed their own little exodus and ended up betraying Malakath. Then, in some similar way to the Chimer being altered by Daedric wrath, they became the cursed of their kind (doubly cursed, since Malakath's people are already pariahs). Abandoned and godless, what purpose could they find for themselves beyond aggressive self preservation?

[BetaB17]

@Gruff. See I havent played ESO, tho its fair to say their ingame portrayal is far from accurate but hey, reusing some assets for a one off quest isnt so terrible, especially when two other games have portrayed them as short primitives

Also to your theory, that still doesnt entirely take away from the Akaviri origin, since proceeding ESO the kammal led an invasion that followed through those regions. They werent entirely wiped out and some did manage to survive.

Tho how and why people in 2E wouldnt recognize a non too old threat, I dont know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but we're also talking about a game where falmer are known yet people act like they dont

[MidbossVyers]

Yet the best speech a Speaker has ever made was "Dear sister, I don't spread rumours. We create them."

Another comparison between the DB and the LDO is exactly that. The light novel, Song to the Witch, contributes both the mysterious assassinations of Marilyn Monroe and JFK to them. Even, IRL, both deaths resulted in quite a few rumors. The motive behind Monroe's assassination is similar to Lucien's comments on killing the Gourmet to "leave an emptiness in the collective soul of Skyrim" or in this case, the US.

That being said, the purpose of killing the Gourmet was to steal his identity, and while that was nominally not the case with the Monroe assassination in the light novel, resident witch Rusalka (in the light novel, Monroe is a witch, as well, for actual significant conflict) ended up "borrowing" Monroe's iconic white dress after her uniform was damaged, which resulted in certain wind-related incidents. And the assassination of the political leader was to incite fear and respect.

[SeaGtGruff]

Rieklings appear on the mainland of Tamriel in the Elder Scrolls Online, which is set before any of the other games.

I think I was wrong about this. They're actually Riekrs-- and since they keep Durzogs as pets, presumably they're just a tribe of Goblins.

But the similarity in the names is intriguing.

[MidbossVyers]

In the old stories, Nords who weren't taken to Valhalla via being KIA were taken to Hel. Sovngarde is the ES version of Valhalla. What is the ES version of Hel because let's be honest, that's probably where Erikur is going? Even the Black-briars are trained to fight.

[SeaGtGruff]

I don't know, but I like the idea that Hel is different for different people, both in the individual sense and in the societal or racial/cultural sense. So for example, to a Nord it might be Hel to be stuck forever in a place where there is only milk to drink; whereas for a Khajiit that might be the opposite of Hel-- that is, if Khajiit like milk, which for all I know might just be an offensive racial stereotype that has no basis in fact.

[Dark Spark]

The afterlife scene in The Elder Scrolls universe is nowhere near this binary. There is a veritable butter board of vastly different fates open to characters which are dependant on their actions or circumstances within The Arena.There may be something akin to Hel, but a soul that doesn't reach Valhalla/Sovngarde isn't neccessarily bound for the icebox.

('butter board' is such a clumsy analogy. If only there were a nordic-language term I could use as a substitute...)

[MidbossVyers]

According to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9raSqlhMcnw Khajiit religion appears to be binary in terms of Heaven and Hell, where Khajiit who do not follow Riddle'Thar are taken by Namira.

[MidbossVyers]

By the way, do we have entries for the random NPCs that start off verbally abusing you but always end up physically fighting you when you try to persuade or intimidate them? You know, the ones that are only known by their races and can be encountered on roads or in taverns.

[SeaGtGruff]

I usually just ignore them, knowing in my heart that they're just pathetic blowhards who wouldn't stand a chance against me. Yeah, buddy, I drink milk. I also kill dragons all by myself. So go pick on a mudcrab or something!

There was a time when I felt the need to attack any Thalmor who were escorting a prisoner, but then I stopped because they were too tough for me at that time. But now that I'm more of a phenomenal godlike hero, I sometimes go after them again.

[Lord Timster]

We have this:

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Taunting_Adventurer

[Dark Spark]

Early on, I'll take on the Thalmor patrols by picking them off one-by-one via conversation: I'll spend so much time before replying that the other two agents will have traveled further down the road and take no notice of the fight that ensues behind them. Repeat the trick once more, and the Thalmor wizard is isolated for a sneak attack.

[SeaGtGruff]

I like that idea! I always feel "dirty" by letting them walk on by with a prisoner, especially after the Diplomatic Immunity quest where you see how they treat their prisoners.

I also feel awkward whenever one side or another of the faction war walks by with a prisoner, regardless of which faction I've chosen.

[MidbossVyers]

In Oblivion, Mannimarco mentioned that good and evil are manifestations of the same thing. Who, then, are the powerful sorcerers responsible for these "manifestations"? The bards, of course. Skyrim's Bards College literally ad-libbed King Olaf's verse. Now, in terms of that verse, regardless of the details, King Olaf is generally always vilified. However, if I told you a story about a politically invested individual, upon realizing that his side is losing the war, decided to kill his own children and spouse and then commit suicide to have his family avoid that shame, would that be considered "good" or "evil"? Ask the bards.

When Liu Chen, son of Liu Shan, son of Liu Bei, did it, all the songs and poems and movies glorified his actions. When Joseph Goebbels did it, he was vilified for it, and I'm not talking about movies and poems that cover his other actions. I mean, just that one action, which was the exact same thing that Liu Chen did.

[SeaGtGruff]

It can be a cultural thing-- and I don't just mean different nations and their cultures, although that's part of it; I also mean how the beliefs and attitudes and priorities of the people who make up a given culture change over time. Two identical actions by two different people can be perceived in totally opposite ways due to the lens through which they're viewed. And besides cultural differences, there can also be differences in popularity or status. A despicable act by a "socially important" and "well-respected" individual will often be viewed in a more forgiving light than an identical despicable act by a "socially irrelevant" or "disreputable" individual. And a given action might be applauded and lauded by some members of a culture yet be denounced and vilified by other members of that same culture. Which I suppose goes back to the point about "good" and "evil" being manifestations of the same thing-- i.e., one person's or culture's "good" might be another person's or culture's "evil," and vice versa.

[MidbossVyers]

Not sure if I said this, but I found that easterners' (usually Chinese) and westerners' view of dragons is similar to their view of dictators. In the east, if a local river floods for too long, people assume that its dragon king is angry and is demanding human sacrifice. They acquiesce immediately. In the west, if a dragon demands human sacrifice... Well, I guess Skyrim's Dragon War is a sufficient response. Compare that to the Chinese view that no matter how bad the (currently Communist) government is, if it falls, then people go hungry, despite the fact that that government is the reason that people would go hungry in the first place vs. the American view of liberty or death.

Of course, in Asia, dragons are symbolic of rulers, so even if one does slay the "dragon", the people would now view that new guy as the "dragon". Basically, the concept of the Dragonborn, in that the only person who can truly kill a dragon must be a dragon themselves.

[AKB]

That's kind of interesting, but I wouldn't say it's perfect. After all, one of the most famous Chinese adages is "The empire, long divided, must unite; long united, must divide". I have more thoughts on it, but they're kind of a jumble.

[MidbossVyers]

When Heimskr quotes Many Headed Talos and says "I breathe now, in royalty, and reshape this land which is mine. I do this for you, Red Legions, for I love you." is that eros or agape? Initially, Talos being an emperor who became a god, I thought that it was agape, but then again, according to the movie, Alexander, Alexander the Great was very eros with his officers, so... Both?