Skyrim General Discussion

[BetaB17]

That begs the question on whether souls can reside in multiple afterlives i.e fragments of a whole unless pledged or trapped

Then again, thanks to the Companions questline, we know that someone who is a werewolf, regardless of their religion or desired afterlife, is subsequently claimed by Hircine until undone. They even mentioned to one day ride amongst those of Sovngarde to help free their brothers and sisters from his realm. That at least speaks that an afterlife in Aetherius is not always a given

[Chaos the N'wah]

Well, if 16 Accords of Madness, v. XII is anything to go by, certain oaths or rights supersede others it seems
Which might be why we don't see Akatosh step in if the Dovakiin swears himself to Hircine, he still ultimately owns that gifted soul and perhaps only a rite or pact made with Akatosh himself would annul this
Granted we see an example that's counter to this idea in Miraak, as 1st Dragonborn, but we also don't know if it's because he chose to forsake his purpose (and Akatosh disowned him of sorts) or if Hermaeus Mora is another example of the above book, where Mora knows a way to bypass such things (or if this is something intrinsic to the Daedric lord of knowledge)

That or the Aedra have no real power to rescind gifted souls, which is why we hear of Artifacts like the Lord's Mail and such leaving their owners, much easier to control a piece of metal than a mortal that could just take your power and join another side

[BetaB17]

Its fair to assume Daedra and other, stronger et'ada are capable enough to subvert afterlife and the claim over souls. Its sort of their thing, to perverse and twist what the Aedra create. Especially if a pact or enslavement was made. Does it fully annual what existed before, probably not, but like you displayed.. there are clear examples of one superseding another

Miraak is literally perverted by the influence of Mora, much like we can assume he will do the same to us. A Daedra has many reasons to covet and steal a valuable soul from another, especially one so rare as a fully realized dragonborn. And it probably goes without saying, while power may be one thing, having the deeper hold gives you the biggest claim. It's probably how Mora's will supersede Nocturnal's despite being so official. Much like how literally becoming Sheogorath subverts the 9 Divine

:

This would also help explain why fated heroes, especially the Last Dragonborn, are so easily given a boon and arbitrary claimed as their champion.. because A) they have alot more to gain from it B) its not exactly a free hand out C) they can always reclaim their artifact and lastly D) even if their 'claim' is superficial, baiting you with a lure of power or temptation can bring you closer to their influence, further cementing their claim

The other way to almost ensure subverting their designated afterlife is to literally ensnare their soul. Be it like what occured in ESO or more commonly being trapped in a black soul gem. From their, their fate is literally in your hands.. be it casted off to the soulcarne or treated little more than as currency amongst the daedra

Now then, this is just conjecture(tho really all of this is ) but had there been no official pacts nor enslavement, I would be fair to imagine TLD would have his afterlife at the mercy of Akatosh, not the Daedra or.. Sithis. And I do mean mercy, because even if he goes to Sovngarde, it would be upon his good will and mercy(plus, Sovngarde lacks its god. He totally could just sweep on in and take his lil dragon soul)

You also gotta consider how dragon souls work and oversouls. Hence earlier what I said, fragments of a soul not whole. You dont need to take the whole thing to have your claim. And as we already know, mortal spirits arent 1:1.

:

Case in point, why the bodies of the dead are still precious after death. Be it necromancy to keep the soul bound to a still fresh body.. or how even long after death there is still residual energy linking back to the soul. Ect ect. Spirits and souls arent 1:1 as with someone's singular life. Energy spent, energy dispersed. Even the "bulk" of who you are can be shattered

[Dark Spark]

I'd entertain the notion that a Dark Brotherhood contract will 'steal' a soul for Sithis, no matter what pact or destiny was claimed beforehand. That'll ramp up the vile nature of the cult and bring dire peril to anyone targeted in a quest or story-- a heroic guardian isn't trying to save just a victim's life, but their soul as well.

[MidbossVyers]

Obviously, Telvanni wizard lords are long-lived, but most of them are elves. Are there any human mages who have extended their lives indefinitely without becoming undead (whether vampire, lich, or ghost)?

[BetaB17]

Its not just the notion of who's an elf and who's a wizard

Telvanni and a select few Dunmeri/Chimer have an exceptionally long life span compared to most other mortal races, even before you consider magical influences. Its on that notion why some Telvanni are known to be borderline ancient. Some have faired better than others, but having emminse power, mastery over magic, and an already superb lifespan that reasonably they have achieved what most others could only hope to come close via undeath

Altmeri are another special circumstance, because similar to the Chimer/Dunmer, they too should have the capacity for long natural lifespans. The thing is tho.. culturally they also practice extending that. Altmeri mages certain can and should live long lives, maybe even to par with some Telvani under the same conditions.

The real thing to note tho is.. why are Dunmer and Altmer known to live so long, but that isnt universally shared across all elven races. The bosmer for one could only live a fraction of that, even under similar conditions and magic. Worse yet for the orcs

It should be safe to assume, beast and races of man, no matter how skilled or imbued with magic can not help to achieve the same ancient lifespans as that of the Telvanni, they just have too many factors against them to overcome. Hence why most mortal men either subject to undeath for sought after immortality or they make packs with a Daedra(and we know how those end)

I could imagine especially potent human mages might be able to add an extra quarter or two to their lifespans.. but the problem there is they likely spent all their lives just to reach THAT point. Where as an Altmer or Dunmer likely would still be young by the time he reached the same level of mastery and knowledge

*Special note. But Aylieds, Dwemer, and Falmer are also likely examples of elves that are under similar benefits as to the Dunmer and Altmer. Tho it is also fair to note both Snow Elves we met in the 4th era, however ancient, have to be special exceptions. Since one was a vampire while the other likely blessed by Anuel

[Chaos the N'wah]

It probably isn't an impossibility, but given that we have a lot of examples of necromancy or divine/daedric favor that I'd wager it isn't the easy path compared to them

I mean, you could argue that Miraak fits the bill, but obviously it isn't from his own magic prowess (as well as the champion of Cyrodiil and the Nerevarine if you chose a human race, but that ain't the norm)

[BetaB17]

Oblivion and the inner realms of daedra dont have to abide by the same laws as the mortal world. Time isnt always parallel. You are truly at the mercy of others, at the mercy of those beyond your comprehension.

Also Miraak is also an odd exception, bc not only did he have favor from a Daedra, Mora most of all. But also the fact that not only is he still alive, Mora purposely snatched him away in his realm till he was ready. Miraak has likely not aged a day, which probably isnt that hard when YOUR LITERALLY IN THE GRASP OF A PRINCE

[Chaos the N'wah]

I mean, he is/was a dragon priest and they tend not to just roll over and die without some help. Add in a good old yummy immortal dragon soul and I can't be so sure that Mora had to do a whole lot, probably a touch up so he didn't shrivel up like a prune.

But that kinda gets into the whole 'dragon souls are immortal/Alessia's death/Amulet of kings/Talos ascension' weirdness

Side note: I vaguely recall a book describing Mora's realm as "Haunted by the ghosts of mortals forever searching for knowledge," so I'd say it probably safe to assume time does pass in some form.
I mean, it's not concrete, but it'd be pretty weird if time didn't pass, but you couldn't manage to keep one person alive in your realm other than the random cthulhu-baby and a random dragonborn, right?
unless they became the books... ...eww..

[BetaB17]

I mean, Daedric realms are BIG, and can include both their daedric denizens, souls of the afterlife, and the mortals foolish enough to wander in. Shivering Isles anybody? How many worshipers did he have just wandering around living oddly normal lives and at his beck and whim? Or what about Gaiar Alata or Coldharbour, undying bodies and torment forever more. As I said, you are upon another's mercy.

And thats just on account of those who reside there in afterlife, still living mortals arent much better.. well.. except more maybe the fact they still have a body to walk Nirn in if their so lucky to return But hey, not all daedra or realms need to be so kind or operate off the same rules. Peryites for one isnt too kind nor open to mortal visitors meanwhile Mora probably welcomes those tempted enough to his libraries. May I remind you of a certain conjurer who ended up traveling into his realm very much still alive and got lost? Not all ghosts n books am I right? (Plus what harm is there in keeping a mortal around. He's already ensnared)

Also I dont mean to say Miraak was just chilling with Mora being like time in stasis.. I mean, he himself could have been in stasis but that doesnt change a thing. Mora could do literally whatever to whomever in his realm. It's just, time certainly can and does move in other realms.. it just doesnt always need to be in sync. Ya know.. 5 years here could mean 10 there, that stuff. After all, realms can and do exist outside of normal space and time.. and again.. totally at the whims and desires of its master

>Also I dont really think Miraak's Dragonborn status or former Dragon priest status matters much. We havent seen many other Dragonborns live anywhere near as long, even those that may have slain a dragon. Souls can be eternal, a mortal's body? Not so much. And as far as shriveling up like a priest? Reminder that in life they gained power and blessing from the dragons.. in death.. well, undeath, they mostly sustain themselves from their draugr servants and whatever magics they used. They really are no different than a lich

I think the real thing that is interesting is Miraak was very much still alive when he entered oblivion and stayed there for the passing eras.. and yet, especially given he had a mortal body.. he had to go through a whole effort just to try and return to Tamriel via the All-Maker stones and his whole corruption. Like.. I get it Mora didnt exactly want Miraak fully out of his grasps and free.. but why was it so hard and necessary to just.. return? I think its a similar case as with what happened to our boi in the Soul Carne. Staying there too long could have an influencing effect, make it that much harder to leave. I certainly dont see Miraak as corrupted as dragon-pal Duniv.. well, corrupted progressively. Mora certainly has his hands and influence deep in Miraak long before he took one too long of a vacation. No no, I just find it weird just how much effort Miraak has to do just to bring himself back, while others probably would have gone through the same effort and planning just to bring about a daedric invasion or event. It's just, a whole lot of work for something so odd

[Chaos the N'wah]

Well, Miraak is definitely powerful, I mean, he remained sane within Oblivion for a really long time and obviously something about him made Mora want him. Now Mora definitely follows the find out everything they know/are/have and toss them aside when they aren't useful; which we see in how quickly he was willing to get rid of Miraak (and how he treated the Skaal Shaman). It's kind of like Mora doesn't actually want Miraak, but he doesn't want something for nothing.

As for why, would you really want to spend the rest of you immortal life in a library when you used to rule a chunk of skyrim; not to mention the fact the he joined Mora to learn how to control dragons.. and aside from his own personal slave-drakes, there are no other dragons in the realm (I mean, it would be funny if he did succeed in another era, only to find all the dragons are dead), It'd be like moving to a new town to get free internet, but the city is a [&@%!] hole with no electricity or learning how to drive a car... just in time for self-driving cars to become mandatory.

Basically, they're both stubborn and don't know how to cut their losses

On aside note: Miraak definitely has been in Apoch as long as ol Duniv are been in Soul Cairn, so I'd like to say it to be a dragon physicality thing as to why he degraded, but we see the same kind of corrupting influence in Coldharbor (and in what seems like a much quicker pace). So what made Miraak special? (I just made myself sad, because I would've loved to see/fight a weird tentacled Miraak abomination)

[BetaB17]

Big note, being a vestige is not one and the same of being a mortal who just so happens to be in oblivion. They are VERY different. Thats not even considering anything to do with Molag Bal is far from passive
--
Anyways. Miraak? Sane. Thats subjective Have you heard his lessons? Its like talking to Vivec and thinking he's the wisest thing ever but totally bat [&@%!] crazy. Dude knows forbidden knowledge that can seriously threaten self existence let alone Mundas itself. There is a reason why its called forbidden knowledge, not just, knowledge

And no, Mora totally wanted Miraak as his toy/puppet.. he just found a new favorite by the time TLD came around. Better to cut your loses and upgrade. And hey? Pitting the First Dragonborn vs the Last to see who is the better one isnt a bad gamble to make. And ya, thats totally why Mora wanted Miraak so badly, why he was so special, because he was unique, bc he was the first, and bc he was a fully realized dragonborn. It's a rare specimen to hoard.. and he had plenty of time to learn what he could. Only problem tho? Miraak wasnt too keen on always being under his thumb.. or.. tentacle?

[Chaos the N'wah]

Okay sane as in coherent and capable of more than reactionary killing... meh, okay, he can talk.

Thats not even considering anything to do with Molag Bal is far from passive

This made me laugh more than it should

[SeaGtGruff]

One thing that gets me about Coldharbour in ESO--

People: "Oh, no, we're stuck in Coldharbour! It's an awful place that's swarming with Daedra, and we can't get out!"

You: "Uh... Why don't you just leave by that wayshrine over there?"

[MidbossVyers]

If Apocrypha really is an infinite library... Where's the erotica section? You know, where Lusty Argonian Maid, etc. are kept.

[Dark Spark]

Is that knowledge, or entertainment? Would Apocrypha be home to creative efforts of fiction, or would it hoard just the hard stuff like philosophical arguments, history and investigations into life and the universe?

[ciberzombie]

i very much doubt that Miraak was kept in Apocripha by Lusti Argonian Maid books

[Morven Ashwing]

i very much doubt that Miraak was kept in Apocripha by Lusti Argonian Maid books

Who is to say that Dragon Priests do not have needs to satify?

[MidbossVyers]

You know that you played too much Skyrim when you watch Jashin-chan Dropkick, and you think of http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Conjuration_Ritual_Spell

[SeaGtGruff]

You know you're playing too much Skyrim to the exclusion of everything else when you know what http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Conjuration_Ritual_Spell is but you don't have a clue who or what Jashin-chan Dropkick is.

[Morven Ashwing]

Is that knowledge, or entertainment?

"Pleasure is to mingle with study that the child may think learning an amusement rather than a toil," - Cardinal Thomas Wolsey

[MidbossVyers]

You know you're playing too much Skyrim to the exclusion of everything else when you know what http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Conjuration_Ritual_Spell is but you don't have a clue who or what Jashin-chan Dropkick is.

Anime about a girl who summons a demon who tries to kill her in order to break free of the binding. Each segment usually ends with the scheme backfiring and said demon "dying" in a hilarious manner. Of course, Daedra never truly die, etc.

[SeaGtGruff]

You know you're playing too much Skyrim to the exclusion of everything else when you know what http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Conjuration_Ritual_Spell is but you don't have a clue who or what Jashin-chan Dropkick is.

Anime about a girl who summons a demon who tries to kill her in order to break free of the binding. Each segment usually ends with the scheme backfiring and said demon "dying" in a hilarious manner. Of course, Daedra never truly die, etc.

Ahh, okay! I'll definitely have to hunt it down, then.

[MidbossVyers]

Basically, if someone stretched out the Conjuration Ritual Spell quest into a sitcom.

[Morven Ashwing]

You know you're playing too much Skyrim to the exclusion of everything else when you know what http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Conjuration_Ritual_Spell is but you don't have a clue who or what Jashin-chan Dropkick is.

Anime about a girl who summons a demon who tries to kill her in order to break free of the binding. Each segment usually ends with the scheme backfiring and said demon "dying" in a hilarious manner. Of course, Daedra never truly die, etc.

sounds like a blast.