Lore General Discussion!

[BetaB17]

As I said, always

[Crawldragon]

If anything the Sload make me think of what you'd get if a Deep One from The Shadow Over Innsmouth had a child with one of the Vogons from Hitchhiker's Guide.

It's probably best if no one tries to picture what that would look like.

[Aarah]

I suppose with all the different species out there in film/tv/literature, when creating a race it's hard to not end up with something that looks like something that already 'exists'.

They say babies of things are always cute...but a baby sload? Hmm...

[BetaB17]

Here's an accurate representation of Sload babies! Never before seen!

[Aarah]

Aww, they look so clean and white!

[MidbossVyers]

Assuming that the payment went through (accountants, please help), the Dark Brotherhood would even carry out Einsatzgruppen-level killings, huh?

[Dark Spark]

I don't think the Black Hand would commit a sizable number of assassins in an organized attack group. One assassin per contract fits the story, with one or two brought in as support when needed.

[MidbossVyers]

Well, wouldn't that be what the payment is for? Lucien considered the dwarves' (self) genocide as a "feat". http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Spectral_Assassin I'm pretty sure that he's not a dwarf-hater but considers mass killings as a matter of accomplishment.

[BetaB17]

Lucien =/= Dark Brotherhood

Also, if you wanna take pride in your proficiency at killing, then wiping off a large population alone and getting away with it should be commendable act of skill(and luck)

Btw, just to note, unless it's a purge or necessary for the guild's survival.. they really arent big on larger scale targets. They opperate more on the basis of, selective and targetted assaults.. i.e So if you had a bandit fort, you would hire the DB to kill off the leader or sabotage those keeping things in order. If ya wanna wipe every last one off the face of Nirn? Then ya hire some mercenaries

The DB and most other assassin guilds are your bread n butter when you wanna do the most amount of damage with the least amount of casaulties(granted, most of the time its vendettas and political contracts) Nothing else too it. They arent an army, but they can sure as hell cripple a nation. Not that they would, natively.. mutual co-existence is invaluable

[MidbossVyers]

Isn't Lucien as a spectral assassin an aspect of Sithis now, or does that open up a whole other discussion about whether Sithis is sentient or just the force of chaos? I note that you mentioned bandits and pirates, but understand that the Dark Brotherhood has no qualms about killing beggars http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Narfi and cleaning ladies, as well http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Agnis Stealth is encouraged but not required as Gogron would tell you: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gogron_gro-Bolmog I wonder if all "30 elves" were contract-required or just collateral damage, like killing all of Alain Dufont's thugs before getting to him.

Even for stealth operations, depending on the circumstances, the Brotherhood makes sure that it is known that they did in, like with the killing of Titus Mede II. Maximizing or minimizing casualties, hiding the body or publicly displaying it, all that really depends on the contract.

[BetaB17]

Well, couldnt he just be a spirit, it's not hard to see how. Even if we take everything from the DB at face value(and not say, what we know of Padomay/the Void or the DB's relation to the Molag Tong/Mephala) then by all means, his soul should have been sent to the void to be at service to Sithis

And if your the skeptic(like me), then you got Mephala's realm(s) where he could be spending his afterlife and called upon by those deemed worthy

FYI, theories or none, I do not think Sithis would ever bother to just put on a fascade and be an aspect for something so... minor. He's got better things to do

[MidbossVyers]

Well, it's kinda hard to explain. It's still Lucien, but he's just representing Sithis very closely. Like how, in Dies Irae, Reinhard Heydrich's 3 Battalion Commanders count as a part of him, despite clearly having their own personalities.

[legoless]

Isn't Lucien as a spectral assassin an aspect of Sithis now, or does that open up a whole other discussion about whether Sithis is sentient or just the force of chaos?

Well, it's kinda hard to explain. It's still Lucien, but he's just representing Sithis very closely.

Lucien is still Lucien, he is not an aspect of Sithis. He was granted the honour of serving Sithis in the Void for all eternity. Obviously being a bound spectre is part of the package.

It should be noted that Lucien is not the only one to suffer this fate; in Oblivion he gives you a scroll to summon the spirit of Rufio, an assassination target whose soul was sent to Sithis like all Brotherhood targets.

[BetaB17]

Thats a very.. niche example

I mean, spending your afterlife close to and in personal service to Sithis should of course make ya more privy to his whims, right?

[MidbossVyers]

He represents and speaks for Sithis, so everything that he says is at least Sithis-approved.

[BetaB17]

Well, within bias interpretation, sure. I mean, if he wants to say something WRONG, I'm pretty sure he'll feel the consequenced <_<

[MidbossVyers]

Of course, I might be wrong entirely, and Lucien is somehow a dwarf hater. Also, for someone who doesn't like entertainers (bards, jesters, etc.), Nazir sure makes a lot of puns.

[BetaB17]

He just likes to be the one to kill the joke, thats all

[ladyonthemoon]

Anybody knows if the Altmer have a tradition about slavery? Like the Dunmer have towards the Argonian? I know that they consider themselves superior to all the other races but I don't remember if they consider slavery legitimate.

[BetaB17]

I mean, they probably dont think too highly of man, considering their close cousins the Alyied clearly took that path

But still, the Altmer do practice slavery in Summerset, but with more readily available natives like goblin-kin

[legoless]

Thats a very.. niche example

I mean, spending your afterlife close to and in personal service to Sithis should of course make ya more privy to his whims, right?

I think you misunderstand the nature of Sithis tbh

[BetaB17]

Beside the void and chaos? Or the supposed fact that he actually has a personality and will of his own? Or actually has an interest in petty mortal souls like some Daedra?

Lets be honest. Sithis and this whole, DB following is odd, even by Tamrielic standards. Padomay and his personification really dont see much aside from creation myths or acknowledgement as a primordial force.. not so much, as a diety in the same vein as, well, actual dieties i.e et'ada. And yet, the Dark Brotherhood have interpretations o' plenty where the counterpoints are [&@%!] all and lacking in representation.

Head canon aside, you cant deny, Padomay/Sithis and what the DB believe are just, odd (Head canon NOT aside, I honestly just feel it's Mephala doing the real work, and Sithis basically just getting free praise bc hey, blood runs deep. Mephala probably just has a spare oblivion realm she keeps just for the facade, just to act as this lil personal 'void' where her gullible loyal or slain targets are sent. Whether or not Sithis directly contributes isnt necessary, if anything, Mephala has the power to do the dirty deeds.)

[MidbossVyers]

You know, one of the main reasons that I like ES lore is because whenever someone calls vampires and werewolves "monsters", I gently remind them that humans are the wretched spawn of the Doom Drum.

Also, I realize that I may be biased due to the Jet Li movie Hero, but how is saying "kill the guy who ordered you to kill me" honorable? An honorable man would try to ensure the safety of his family or something. In the event that you didn't watch the movie, Hero, basically, this is what a loser does:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E1N0IvW6HyI[/youtube]
This is what happens to losers:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeTBqolcrO8[/youtube]
This is what a winner does: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Hail_Sithis!
This is what is given to winners: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Gold

... Also, is my bbcode not working for embedded video links?
Also, when they say that Fathis Aren http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Fathis_Aren "consorts" with Daedra, how far is he going? http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mazken

I have a theory why the Dark Brotherhood has the Scales of Pitiless Justice, despite the fact that pitiless justice is more the Morag Tong's thing. It could be a tongue-in-cheek joke mocking people who only speak of justice and manners when it suits them, like that scene in Kingsman 2 when Eggsy kills Charlie after, in his own words, "dropping the gentleman bit":
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJpqEVoUUoQ[/youtube]

[MidbossVyers]

Lucien =/= Dark Brotherhood

Also, if you wanna take pride in your proficiency at killing, then wiping off a large population alone and getting away with it should be commendable act of skill(and luck)

Btw, just to note, unless it's a purge or necessary for the guild's survival.. they really arent big on larger scale targets. They opperate more on the basis of, selective and targetted assaults.. i.e So if you had a bandit fort, you would hire the DB to kill off the leader or sabotage those keeping things in order. If ya wanna wipe every last one off the face of Nirn? Then ya hire some mercenaries

The DB and most other assassin guilds are your bread n butter when you wanna do the most amount of damage with the least amount of casaulties(granted, most of the time its vendettas and political contracts) Nothing else too it. They arent an army, but they can sure as hell cripple a nation. Not that they would, natively.. mutual co-existence is invaluable

For example, if you failed http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:A_Shadow_Over_Hackdirt Seed-Neeus would be devastated over the death of her daughter. If, in that devastation, she contacts the Dark Brotherhood, who would be the target?
Going back to the Scales of Pitiless Justice, I notice that the DB and the MT have items associated with the other organization. The DB has the scales, while the Morag Tong has the Black Hands Dagger.

[MidbossVyers]

You might be getting more and more annoyed by me compared the Dark Brotherhood with Dies Irae's Longinus Dreizehn Orden, but the Dark Brotherhood is a splinter of the Morag Tong after one of its Night Mothers started hearing Sithis's voice. The LDO was splintered from the Schutzstaffel after it was discovered that only Reinhard (like, you know, Heydrich) was able to wield the Lance of Longinus (that couldn't have been good for Himmler's ego). Doppeladler is a special division of the Eastern Orthodox Church dedicated to fighting the LDO. Its members consist of victims of either directly the LDO or the Third Reich, in general.

While most ES games with a playable Dark Brotherhood faction often will have special enemies with storied pasts involving the Brotherhood, such as Mathieu Bellamont and the Black Dragon, I don't think that there were any organizations or branches of organizations built in response to fight them. The Penitus Oculatus doesn't count as their job is to protect the Emperor from any dangers, not just the Dark Brotherhood, and of course, the Morag Tong is the precursor to the Brotherhood, not vice versa. The closest thing might have been the Order of the Hour under Primate Artorius, but the Order of the Hour was an organization worshiping Akatosh even before then. It just wasn't focused on fighting the Dark Brotherhood.