Lore General Discussion!

[The SheoDovah]

*casts master level necromancy spell on thy thread*

All this Skyrim and lore talk in discord got me thinking. Perhaps, It's time to revive this thread and there are a few things I'm curious about.

If Naarfin being a cultist of Boethieah is canon(I've heard Legends is semi-canon). Why did Boetheiah elect to do that? All out war seems rather too obvious for her/him. That's more of a Molag Bal thing due to it being death, destruction etc...

Just how did the entire Aldermi Dominion invasion force conquer the IC? Assuming that the Imperal Legion had a navy, they would be rather pressed for time to launch a massive surprise attack. I mean, the nearest port is Anvil and by the time they could conquer it, surely, someone would have alerted the legion.

The forgotten hero replacing Titus Mede. Just how? How did no-one notice a sudden chance in race/gender and voice in Titus Mede II?

[Br3admax]

Boethia is the Daedric Prince of "deceit, conspiracy, secret plots of murder, assassination, treason, and unlawful overthrow of authority," and the Empire is Law.

They had the backing of Boethia making it pretty easy, comparatively, to get around imperial forces. Anvil also isn't a military port where as the Altmer had arguably a second only to Hammerfell. Also, only half of their invasion force went to Cyrodiil.

There was a battle going on, and the Forgotten Hero is likely of similar race and proportions to Mede, as armor is fitted. They also spent a great deal of the battle in a duel.

[BetaB17]

Ya, I don't know why you wouldn't think Boethia would want to have, not only a hand in such tempting mortal affairs, but actively turn the tide of a war via one deceptive lil pawn.. I mean, both seem perfectly right up his alley >_> alot more than say Molag Bal

[The SheoDovah]

Boethiah seems to favour subtlety over obvious plots. Think Metal Gear Solid's Ocelot levels of magnificent [&@%!]. Molag Bal would love to see more death, destruction and people being perscuted for following Talos. Wouldn't it be more likely for Naarafin to have sided with the empire then caused a whole lot of incidents from within. E.g. framing a general for murder of a Talos worshipper to increase tensions, sabotaging defenses etc..


I still find it hard that even if Boethiah(I've heard Legends is semi-canon and some things are not set in stone in terms of retcons), assisted Naarfin, would be hard to avoid word from breaking out. Even if they somehow murdered everyone in the city, there's supplies to handle, staging points etc.. The Imperial City and the Imperial navy(assuming that it is still useful in the 4th Era) would have ruined the surprise attack.

The Forgotten Hero, true but kinda is forced in tbh and well, comes off as a bit fanfiction-y. But that would still require the Empreror to be fully armoured, wearing a full face helmet and the Forgotten Heroe being able to mimic every single mannerism. I may just be nitpicking though.

[BetaB17]

I don't know where your getting this assumption of Molag Bal from Or Boethiah for that matter

Hell, in general some of the Princes are more chaotic and malicious than others >_> so exciting war, violence, and death is a fairly common favorite trend, even if some are more sporting than others

So then ask yourself, in an Altmer society, shat benefit would there to be had for a worshipper of Boethiah to be an invading general of the very pinnacle of Imperial order? And attempt to fulfill a prophecy Oh n the midst of an active conquest too? And odds are, I wouldn't expect his worship to exactly be well known till after the fact, which only fuels this point

At least to Naarafin, and by extent, the Dominion, would still benefit from this test of strength.. I mean, it's not every day you get a buff to your invading force against an enemy, and had the prophecy been fulfilled, an absolute victory guaranteed. The only thing that would of made this more 'on theme' is if Naarafin turned around and betrayed the Dominion <_< or he himself got betrayed

[Br3admax]

Just the same, there is no canon in ES, but if there were Legends would be a part of it. It's an officially licensed product.

I also don't see how it's "fanfiction-y." Whatever that means.

[MidbossVyers]

The Dark Brotherhood often gives a reward called the "Scales of Pitiless Justice", which usually takes the form of a balance scale, but isn't "Pitiless Justice" more the Morag Tong's deal? Apart from tangible financial gain, the Dark Brotherhood tends to lean towards the chaos of Sithis, rather than any kind of balanced justice.

[BetaB17]

The Morag Tong hold a more religious aspect, if not moderate by cult standards. Their more than just assassins, they serve a purpose amongst the Great Houses and act in the name of Mephala.

The Dark Brotherhood are an odd bunch, and they certainly take their roles in a different stride than their honored cousins <_< It shouldn't come to a surprise that some of their core or more dedicated members abide by their teachings or beliefs. None so more than the Darkscales in my opinion(whom are in a league of their own in tradition). But on the more common members? Try and tell me most arent financially motivated(as opposed to religiously/duty-driven) and it's not hard to blame them, look at how they proceed with missions. If you preform the proper ritual, they'll kill anybody given the right price. That's it. To the void they go, by knife no less

Both factions certainly worship Sithis to some extent, and very much uphold their own matriarch to high esteem... But you can tell which ones are serving a purpose and the other simply just killing.. Even if both do it in the name of their deity(and with different results)
-------
Btw, it's a shame that the Darkscale never seemed to join the Morag Tong, especially given the political/racial motives. I mean, the Tong and Great Houses would certainly benefit from a sect kept in strong traditions. And their motivations, by proxy, wouldn't have been hard to align.

Plus, frankly speaking, it may have done good for racial relations. But really, that's just wishful thinking on an already hypothetical <_<

[MidbossVyers]

You mean the Shadowscales? So you agree that "Pitiless Justice" is more a Morag Tong thing than it is a Dark Brotherhood thing?

[Br3admax]

Sithis isn't chaos and as one group lead to the other, it's not surprising that they have things like this in common.

[MidbossVyers]

Sithis isn't chaos

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sithis "Sithis (or Padomay) is a representation of the one primordial state of chaos."

[BetaB17]

Br3ad is more so responding to this I believe

the Dark Brotherhood tends to lean towards the chaos of Sithis

In which case, I gotta back him on that. With Sithis, by extension from and association of Padomay, represents the primordial chaos, as an agent of change >_> unlike, say, some of the more defined agents i.e Daedric Princes. For a clear example, look at some cultures that revere one or both, and how they display it. Don't read too much into this *Sips some brandy* but here's my opinion on this:

The argonian's, for one, seem to have taken what Sithis represents to heart, far better than any other race. They moved away from their more permanent, stone structures in favor of the temporary and modest huts and mud structures. Many go so far to show lacking interest between past and future, opting for the ever changing 'now'. They, as a race and culture, seem to have gotten a good grasp on things. Chaos is the ever moving change. Nothing stays, and it's pointless to do otherwise

Contrast that with the Dunmer/Chimer, a daedric worshipping culture downright to their origins >_>. How to they seem to represent their patrons, their manner of chaos? They scheme, slaughter, and regularly stab one another in the backs in an act of tradition and legality, to even a savage degree. Some of their patron daedra certainly have ominous influences, so it's no wonder a society built by those standards will have unhealthy habit. And guess what? They certainly do. If they wanted to achieve chaos, well, they certainly got that, but not the same as earlier. It's chaos in a society and culture, not of that of an ever change in state. Look no further than the stagnation of the Great Houses <_<

So to reel this back *Sip* and straight into mad rambling, to regard this ever going change of state to 'absolute chaos' and a loss of structure, is well, a divisive state. Certainly both can be the same, but generally when plenty of mortal races regard Sithis/Padomay, it's not inherently negative >_> Chaos and change is what allowed for creation to exist. When cults or factions revere Chaos, is it spoken like a whirling torrent or as something more gentler and inviting?

So to say DB/Morag Tong leans toward causing chaos or mayhem in honor of Sithis, that's just not how they operate <_< An angry mob tearing through a city or nation could invoke more 'absolute chaos' than some assassins with a habit of precision. They can certainly honor or worship Sithis or their patron via killing or rituals. But both are far too structured, professional, and, well, full of assassins to where leaning toward 'that' seems a bit ill-defined in practice

*Sips more*

Unless Br3ad was meaning Sithis isn't literally chaos, then ya, he's got ya there. Being an entity representing a primordial force does not entitle that both are one and the same. Sithis ≠ Padomay/Primordial Chaos

[Dark Spark]

In this context, chaos in akin to entropy, or diffuse randomization. Daedra and generally naughty people commit disorder, not chaos. Chaos just happens-- disorder is conscious disruption of what is in order.

[BetaB17]

^Basically, this. All of this. 100%

[MidbossVyers]

So where does Pitiless Justice fit in?

[BetaB17]

It doesn't. At least, not superficially.

as one group lead to the other, it's not surprising that they have things like this in common

If your really curious, just look at it's name and what it's portrayed as. Cruel Justice? In the form of a scale? Seems very befitting of an assassin group, especially of the Tong >_> whom uphold a more professional service and cultural/governing value. Pay to remove a political rival or someone who has wronged you, or to undermine another House/faction >_> You are literally paying the price to legally murder someone, a cruel justice indeed

If you strictly want to look at it with the DB, whom are more business like, the scales lack meaning, at least, on their own.

From ESO, the perk does have the nice boon of reducing the chances of being caught while murdering n what not. How does this tie in with Pitiless Justice, I don't know, aside from the scales maybe symbolizing luck/favor is on your side.. But if that was the case, they could of named it anything else

Really, it's name more or less is nod to the quest you had to do to earn it, and the task achieved. Going back and killing that [&@%!] of a dunmer from the start? In his own cell and ignoring all the guards along the way. One could almost say it was too personal. Truly a form of pitiless justice at your own hands. It holds more meaning to the character in oblivion than it does the actual faction responsible for it

[MidbossVyers]

You know, I love the ES universe where existence was born from rebellion (either Sithis rebelled against Anuiel or vice versa) and humanity born from betrayal (Lorkhan deceiving the other gods).

[MidbossVyers]

If House Telvanni was pro-slavery, why didn't they help Houses Indoril and Redoran fight Houses Hlaalu and Dres when Helseth banned it?
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:House_Telv ... e-BBoGHT-6 Staunchest defenders of slavery
http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Helseth Doesn't mention anything about Telvanni's reactions to the slavery ban

[BetaB17]

Maybe Telvanni didn't think it was worth the struggle? I mean, what with other disasters taking place >_> and the very real possibility that they've diminished in strength. Much easier to find an alternative and act like nothing has changed.. Especially within the day to day lives

I mean, look at Neloth. Would he mind having some slaves to do his bidding? Sure, but he certainly cant enforce it and it's that much easier to just hire some poor fellow and 'treat' them like a worthless slave. Has anything changed? At least within the Telvanni households? A few spare pennies out the pocket, but functionally no.

And for many of the wizards, loyalty held stronger than subservience, even if the two acted as one in the same >_>. They had their favorite personal servants, some willing to do what they must for their master even if they weren't bound to do so. Sure, it would be hard for a new, free servant to do and feel the same. But someone who feels attached or some sense of duty.. Or love? I could see them sticking around.. Even if they have some odd requests

Also, when it's one thing to be a strong supporter and dislike the ban.. Where as actively fighting it just takes up resources and energy.. When you could just go and do your own thing

[dremorababe]

Why did I just discover this thread?!

I get where @Midboss is coming from, I mean House Telvanni did refuse to join the Ebonheart Pact BECAUSE of the slavery ban and release of Argonian slaves. But like @Beta implied, it still wasn't a decision that required the use of resources or energy. If anything, it was easier to NOT join the Pact. Not quite the same as starting a rebellion.

[BetaB17]

Well, this subsequent ban took place between the events of Oblivion and Skyrim. The one your referring to was less so a ban.. And more so.. A mass freeing of slaves by mutual agreement. After all, the Argonian's did come to the rescue when the Dunmer were getting their asses handed to them by that Akaviri invasion

[dremorababe]

Yeah I know. I'm just referring to the rules of the Ebonheart Pact, not saying they were enforced. The Helseth ban is different.

[Aarah]

Is it just coincidental that the Sload bear a resemblance to Jabba the Hutt, or was there some inspiration going on there?

[BetaB17]

It's a staple to every fictional universe, ya just gotta have fat, ugly slug people. Always

[Dark Spark]

It's readliy apparent that Jabba the Hutt takes a cue from the caterpillar in Alice in Wonderland.