ES games and Atheism. (Primarily Skyrim)

[Daemos Avetorii]

I got "clearance" from a mod to post this. I understand that the points I wish to press may be rather silly or foolish.

I am an Atheist. So afaik. There are no Gods in this world. But in the ES universe, there are. Aedra, Daedra, etc.
Why has it always been that the sentient humanoid races (Men, Mer, Beast) have to exist in some way as a subservient species. Worshipping them. Going to war on their behalf. (Stormcloaks and Talos)

One of the main reasons why I tend to avoid the MQ with my characters, is the whole "Akatosh forces destiny on you". Completely annihilating personal autonomy. Did I choose to play as Dragonborn? No? Did I choose to be Delphine's pet? I am not a convenient tool to terminate Alduin. :p No ty. Why does ES always do this? And why do even beings with the intellect of Altmer lower themselves to some form of worship. You'd think that they of all beings would harbour at least an interest in atheistic ideas. Atheistic not as in deny the Gods are there in the ES universe. They are. But more like.. Be indifferent. Ignore them. I find the idea of a divine being forcing fate/destiny on a mortal as.. eminently malevolent and a disrespect to notions of freedom. So Was Talos a slave of gods to make his Empire, and unleash his cheating device (Numidium) on the then hapless Elves? Would they have had a chance without it?

It was read that before the Empire, Tamriel was mostly a gaggle of petty and corrupt kings and bandit clans rampaging for supremacy. I agree that the "man" Talos made order with the Empire. And I am assured that the Empire did much to spread culture, technology, and such things to Tamriel. But it was still done basically under orders of divine destiny.

Look at the Empire now. Blackmarsh, Elsweyr, Alinor, Morrowind, Hammerfell either seceeded or fell into disaray. Skyrim is in chaos. There is little left of this Empire. And little left of it's supposed divine destiny. If deities would enforce such destiny, one would think that the produced Empire would last forever.

So long story short. I seem annoyed about this and yes I know this likely does not remotely cover the views of most anyone else here. That is why I asked for mod clearance. To avoid any unintended unpleasantness.

[legoless]

Being an atheist in Tamriel is an even worse idea than being a grovelling worshipper. The Dwemer tried to ignore the Gods, and ended up glitching themselves out of existence. In a world as unstable as the Mundus, the Creators need to intervene.

For the most part (i.e. ignoring certain cultural beliefs), the Daedra aren't gods. Worshipping Daedra is often about obtaining unnatural power or rebelling against the gods. It can't really be compared with real-world religion; the Daedric Princes are physically present in the world, unlike the Divines and unlike real-world gods.

You might dislike the concept of Fate, but it exists in the Mundus. Your character in every TES game is literally an agent of Fate. You're agreeing to be a doom-driven hero the minute you turn the game on. If you don't like that, install an alternate start mod and stay in Riverwood.

It was read that before the Empire, Tamriel was mostly a gaggle of petty and corrupt kings and bandit clans rampaging for supremacy. I agree that the "man" Talos made order with the Empire.

That's pretty inaccurate. The history of Tamriel is more nuanced than the Dragon Emperors alone.

[Crawldragon]

In a world where gods are real and measurable, it makes sense to be subservient to them. We're talking about beings who could step on you on their way to get somewhere without even noticing. Now Tamriel doesn't normally have the kind of fearful relationship with their gods you would normally see in an Abrahamic religion, but the principle still applies: It is better to please a god than to displease it. I mean, sure, if you [&@%!] off the Aedra you might have an ally among the Daedra, but the Daedra aren't as powerful, so it's better to be on the Aedras' side. I mean, this is basic survival.

In essence, Tamriel aren't really licking their gods' boots, they're just trying to be noticed so that they don't end up accidentally wiped out by some unrelated cosmic event, or they're trying to gain the gods' favor so they can sleep better at night. It's not like the gods are the only things that hold sway in the Elder Scrolls games; you've got the dead rising from their graves, powerful wizards trying to take over the world, and all manner of horrifying things stalking the darkness. Having a god on your side is pretty handy, as the protagonists in the TES games demonstrate (thanks to legoless for pointing that out)

Now, sure, if you were a divine entity you would probably try to be a little more altruistic than that, but realistically the gods have their own problems to deal with. If you sink your teeth deep into the lore you'll find that there's all kinds of [&@%!] going on that you don't even see in the games, and the gods have to deal with all of it. It gets bad enough that Akatosh sometimes loses track of time and weird things start happening like the Warp in the West. You don't sweat the insignificant beings that crawl on the ground. It's only when they make themselves heard that you would even know to watch out for them.

And the reason why you should accept the decision of the gods, Dragonborn, is that if you don't accept this burden then no one else will. The gods gave us a boon, a mighty warrior who could save us all, and the little [&@%!] is griping about his duties and his destiny, all like "ooh I carry the blessings of the gods and wield an untold cosmic power to wipe out the forces of evil that threaten my people. Waaaah." Try to be a little more selfless, Nerevar

[Finn Wolfshorn]

Interesting topic, Daemos. I think there are several aspects to this.

For one, humanity has been worshipping various deities for ages; so far TES merely reflects pre-modern beliefs in the real world. The idea of individual freedom and choosing your own path, much as I sympathize with it personally, is a rather newfangled thing. Although Tamriel doesn't correspond 1:1 to any one stage in real world history, it is clearly a world permeated by supernatural elements (magic, ghosts, vampires, werewolves, demons, elemental spirits) and one where heroism and fighting prowess are valued highly, so it kind of makes sense for it to mirror the faith of periods in real world history which held similar beliefs.

The hero acting on behalf of a deity is an overused convention of the fantasy genre, probably inherited from the myths which inspired it. Zeus fathered and protected the heroes of Greek mythology, not unlike the relationship between Akatosh and the Last Dragonborn. Odin meddled with the careers of Old Norse heroes from the Volsungs to Hrolf Kraki. Tolkien writes that Bilbo Baggins was 'meant to' find the Ring, but not by the Ring-maker. Even Thomas Covenant is briefed by the Creator before entering the Land for the first time. A Chosen One of many isn't new.

It doesn't have to be this way, of course. Michael Moorcock, for example, wrote fantasy whose heroes rebelled against the gods and even destroyed some of them (but still tended to meet a tragic end). Or if you're looking for a world without any divine guidance, where the people who believe in divine plans end up screwing up worse than those who don't, there's George R.R. Martin.

That's not the path the creators of TES chose, but they still leave us a bit of wriggling space by including several dialogue options in Skyrim that allow us to express our disinterest in the gods. (If we do any of the major quest lines, of course, we end up as agents of one deity or the other nevertheless, be it Nocturnal or Sithis.) Also note that they gave us one game (Oblivion) where we weren't the Chosen One but merely his best friend and helper, and people would complain about our characters not being central enough. There's no pleasing everybody.

(x-ed with Crawldragon, who makes some very good points.)

[Tingz0r]

I think it's important to remember that it's a game, made by people with their own ideas, trying to tell its own story, and it allows you to take part in it if you want, but it isn't yours.

I am a religious man, but that doesn't hinder my ability to become engrossed in a story or make-believe world where my real life views don't come into play. In The Elder Scrolls, there are multiple gods. That's the way it is and I accept it. In fact, I'm writing my own novel, and religion doesn't really make any sort of appearance in it. That's the beauty of fiction; it can be whatever you want.

[Crawldragon]

I am a religious man, but that doesn't hinder my ability to become engrossed in a story or make-believe world where my real life views don't come into play.

I am probably a somewhat unusual case in the sense that when I first started playing The Elder Scrolls, shortly after Morrowind was first released, I was very devoutly religious, but I'm not anymore; and I think it's an important skill for a fantasy gamer to have to disassociate their real-world beliefs from the beliefs of the world in which they are immersing themselves. Despite not being religious, I can still find meaningful connections with the gods from The Elder Scrolls sufficiently to sympathize with them and serve them in a way that is meaningful to my character. That's just roleplaying.

I bring this up because my older brother was once a ravenous player of RPGs, adventure games, and video games in general, but in an ironic parallel he in fact became more devoutly religious in the same time that I became very much less religious, and it's actually gotten in the way of our relationship somewhat because I am now developing a fantasy setting in which religion and religious belief is very much a focus, but I can't get his feedback on it because he sees evil in everything having to do with gods that he doesn't believe in, which is tragic because he's a very creative individual with insights that I don't have, and he would be a real help to the project if he could just get past that attitude.

I suppose the concise point I'm trying to drive at is that if you can't get past your real-world attitudes when you're roleplaying, you're not really roleplaying, which is why I found Tingz0r's input here very important.

[Cassandra]

This is a really interesting thread.

I am a religious man, but that doesn't hinder my ability to become engrossed in a story or make-believe world where my real life views don't come into play. In The Elder Scrolls, there are multiple gods. That's the way it is and I accept it. In fact, I'm writing my own novel, and religion doesn't really make any sort of appearance in it. That's the beauty of fiction; it can be whatever you want.

I too am religious, coming from a very religious family. Growing up, I got a wide variety of messages from the people around me. Some people would go as far as to say how books like Harry Potter were evil, fantasy RPGs would lead you to devil-worship, etc. Luckily, my mom was a gamer too. I learned that the thing that you have to understand is that the real world is one thing, and fantasy worlds are another. I don't have a problem with games like the Elder Scrolls, because I understand that it's a made-up world that, while based off real life, is largely make-believe.

I think that comes into play with the whole "Why are all the mortals subservient to the Aedra/Daedra?"

Mundus isn't like our world, so the rules of our world don't apply. The Aedra/Daedra are very prominent and tangible in Tamriel. The way mortals interact with the gods plays a big part in what happens in the physical world, so naturally they would work hard to serve them. Even in our world, where there isn't a ton obvious, tangible presence of God, people still believe. For thousands of years, everyone was religious. The whole rejecting God thing only really made an impact when modernism was introduced. Multiple world-changing events, both good and bad, have happened in the name of religion.

Another thing I can't help but wonder is perhaps, in Mundus, serving the gods is simply a part of how mortals function. Maybe servitude is an essential part of the consciousness of the men, mer, and beasts on Nirn. They are very similar to humans, but obviously not the same. Perhaps in Mundus, once a divine being gives you a certain destiny, you have no choice but to accept it and fulfill it. Maybe that doesn't make any sense, but just some thoughts.

[Daemos Avetorii]

Thanks everyone for your replies.
Some further questions. (Not looking to start a fire obviously)

Which ES Universal Force/Essence decried that Aedra be created as Aedra, Daedra as Daedra, and Mortals and Mortals, etc?
Are the Gods themselves anymore subject to unautonomous formulation of existence/creation as mortals are? Did they formulate their own tangible/intangible sentience/existence?
Who/what is the ultimate causitive effect and reason in the ES Universe? For me to know that would be useful. Something about a Padomay and Lorhkan? sp?

[legoless]

Which ES Universal Force/Essence decried that Aedra be created as Aedra, Daedra as Daedra, and Mortals and Mortals, etc?
Are the Gods themselves anymore subject to unautonomous formulation of existence/creation as mortals are? Did they formulate their own tangible/intangible sentience/existence?
Who/what is the ultimate causitive effect and reason in the ES Universe? For me to know that would be useful. Something about a Padomay and Lorhkan? sp?

You should read The Anuad and Aedra and Daedra.

[Daemos Avetorii]

Thank you for those links. ^_^

Now if we can only determine the causitive effect of Anu and Padomay. :p

Aedra are associated with stasis. Daedra represent change.

Sounds that Aedra would be more predictable then. Unless Statis (Sameness) and Change (Alteration) are both sides of the same coin.

[Imbalance]

It's the Matrix. Where the flesh is comprised of 1's and 0's, you are the god, mantling the hero with your essence as a guest in a realm of other gods' creation, for your divine repose. If the realm is not to your liking, your holiness, there are other such dimensions and other feeble minds to inhabit, in exchange for a mere fragment of your ble$$ing.

Welcome to the Pantheon.

[MidbossVyers]

Dwarves in the ES-verse are the atheists. High steam-powered technology, but there is only 1 alive in the world, and even he is a cyborg (his lower part is already robotic, so no chance of even making half-breed babies). I was once an atheist in the ES-verse, but then I confirmed that at least the "blessings" of Sithis are real: http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Spectral_Assassin Spend your life loyally killing people, and get rewarded with an afterlife of killing more people. Doesn't sound like a bad deal, all things considered.

[SarthesArai]

I don't think he's actually a cyborg, but rather just sitting on a supporting device (just like a wheelchair, but without wheels ... and without a chair). Still, reproduction would be rather difficult, given his bodily state. And we even don't know if he's still alive by the time of Skyrim.
Regarding gods: If you count Daedra among gods, they definetly exist (I have seen at least 10 of them in person). Whe can than assume that the Aedra at least used to exist as well. Also, Aedra worshipping hast at least sometimes observable effects, but we cannot say for sure if it really is the blessing of a god, or just a really elaborate enchantment and long forgotten rituals and power sources. As for Sithis, he and Anui-El are even one step above the "Gods" (Aedra, Daedra, and Magna Ge).

[JDizzle]

Nocturnal cursed the whole Thieves Guild for stealing one of her artefacts, by extension it seems like a bad idea to ignore Aedra and Daedra. Daedra at least exert a tangible effect on Tamriel, and are capable of punishing those who displease them.

[MidbossVyers]

*flaunts the Black Star*

[Secret Magic User]

Now if we can only determine the causitive effect of Anu and Padomay. :p

If I'm not mistaken, their causitive effect is the Godhead commencing its Dream.

As for real and tangible effects of the gods and having cause to worship them and act in their name, particularly the Aedra, you don't have to look far. One example would be Arkay's Law, as discussed by King of Worms himself in http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Arkay_the_Enemy.

Secondly, look to the Oblivion Crisis, when the Dragon fires were unlit. The Aedric shield priterating Mundus wasn't present, so Mehrunes Dagon just came strolling into the Imperial City.

In regards to being an agent of fate, don't get the tablet from bleak falls barrow. Don't deliver the news to Whiterun. Go out into the world and make your own story. I'm currently doing that, simply because I want to play a vigilant of stendarr for now.
Also, in this real life, the vast majority (because maybe a couple of those homeless street prophets actually did do some stuff) of us don't have a singular challege to rise up and meet, upon which hangs all if Creation. And yanno what, the fact that for a couple of hours we can feel like that because Bethesda made this story in which an imaginary "bit of time" given substance in the form of a scroll, is pretty cool man.

Edoted for link.

[Lord Timster]

Why has it always been that the sentient humanoid races (Men, Mer, Beast) have to exist in some way as a subservient species.

Are they 'subservient'? It's been a while since I last played a TES game but I always remembered the exact nature of the relationship between man/mer/etc and god-like beings as something which (with a few exceptions) isn't explicitly defined. It's left for the player to fill in the blanks as suits their own 'head-canon' of what 'gods' and 'worship' is all about.

If you don't like the idea of man/mer/etc being a subservient species then start looking for evidence that they're not and play the game based on that instead.

If you pray (and exactly what that entails is not exactly defined) at a Shrine of the Divines you get a blessing. That doesn't sound to me like something that would happen to a 'subservient' species. It sounds a little more like you are attuning yourself to a cosmic archetypal force, perhaps even taking in and embodying a small shard of the divine for a while.

From the 'Invocation of Azura':
Azura wants all of that, and our love. Not our abject slavering, but our honest and genuine love in all its forms. It is important to her that our emotions are engaged. And our love must also be directed inward. If we love her and hate ourselves, she feels our pain.

To me, that sounds like Azura wants her followers to 'worship' her in a kind of devotional practice as fully self-actualised individuals. Again not something a subservient species would be doing.

Now, this kind of approach suits me and the way I like to play the game. YMMV and all that I guess.

Going to war on their behalf. (Stormcloaks and Talos)

If you're referring to the Civil War in Skyrim then isn't that really just a story about how politics and religion can be manipulated to suit another agenda? I'm not sure Talos actually had much to do with it.

"Akatosh forces destiny on you". Completely annihilating personal autonomy.

Again this can come down to how you personally interpret things.

I am reminded of the real-life phenomenon where people who plan, prepare and practise for success in life are sometimes regarded as being "lucky" by people who don't plan, prepare or practise. It's almost as if they just don't 'get' the concept of proper planning leading to success and "lucky" is the only way they can make sense of what's happening...?

In the same way you could consider "fate" and "destiny" to be just concepts that the non-heroic use to make sense of how heroes do things that they don't. As a Hero in a TES game you are creating the "destiny" that other people will sit around and label and categorise however they need to. When Akatosh says 'one day one of you will kick ass enough to do X, Y and Z' do you want to read that as a prophecy that forces you down a path or as a roadmap pointing the way to an awesome quest that you can choose to do?

It's up to you.

I am an Atheist. So afaik. There are no Gods in this world.

Sounds like you are drifting more into Agnosticism there.
(All depending on what that second full stop is really doing.)

Blessings of Azura upon you!

[Avian]

I am also an atheist in real life. I have chosen atheism (or perhaps "defaulted to atheism" is a better phrasing) because there is no tangible evidence of a god in real life.

Not so in the ES universe. In ES, we are surrounded by constant evidence of immortal and supernatural beings, many of which are all too eager to meddle in the affairs of mortals. One could attempt to keep his head down and ignore the gods/daedra as much as possible, but there is no denying their existence.

[MidbossVyers]

Well, if you go through the proper channels, you can shoot one in the genitals and replace him, like in Shivering Isles.

[Chaos the N'wah]

Again this can come down to how you personally interpret things.

I am reminded of the real-life phenomenon where people who plan, prepare and practise for success in life are sometimes regarded as being "lucky" by people who don't plan, prepare or practise. It's almost as if they just don't 'get' the concept of proper planning leading to success and "lucky" is the only way they can make sense of what's happening...?

In the same way you could consider "fate" and "destiny" to be just concepts that the non-heroic use to make sense of how heroes do things that they don't. As a Hero in a TES game you are creating the "destiny" that other people will sit around and label and categorise however they need to. When Akatosh says 'one day one of you will kick ass enough to do X, Y and Z' do you want to read that as a prophecy that forces you down a path or as a roadmap pointing the way to an awesome quest that you can choose to do?

It's up to you.

To echo this sentiment, for the last three games we've had examples of others following similar or outright the same path we do as the PC, but failed or chose a different path. We see the cave of the failed Nerevarines who couldn't make the cut, the outright randomness of the Champion just being the guy with prison cell holding a secret who could have been seen as a Shezarrine, but ended up becoming Sheogorath, and Miraak being a dragonborn who chose not to follow Akatosh's will, valuing power over following his 'destiny,' taking a quicker path to power, and seeking immortality.

[Dark Spark]

The Elder Scroll is a blank parchment with grooves and channels embedded in its surface. When you start writing upon it the pen moves by your hand, but the ink takes on a particular course from wherever you draw the nib.

As you play the game (and write into the Elder Scroll) the story begins to fill in along the lines of the programming, but it's you who determines when and how those particular lines start flowing. As a player you are bound to the structure set down by the game, but you get to color it with your particular sense of art and meaning.

[MetaCthulhu]

Okay, this may sound silly, but is it really appropriate to bring an atheistic view point into something that almost by definition has an intelligent creator? Video games are made by a group of people, usually with an endpoint in mind.

[Chaos the N'wah]

It's a fictional world where we suspend our own logic and beliefs to live another life knowing it isn't real, everyone is taking an atheistic view of it being..well, a game.

If anything, the mingling of Daedra/Aedra worship supports a more cost-benefit methodology with religion in TES. One worships Mephala because they want revenge, another makes a bargain with Clavicus Vile for power, some may worship Dibella in pursuit of beauty or affirmation thereof. It's not particularly faith based, more value based, at least for those with strong desires. I think the exception of the rule, worship of all the Divines, would be as close as it gets to faith, but worship of it could also be construed as getting the value of protection from maligned Daedra and benefit of community order; albeit unknowingly.

I'd say Ulene Hlervu from Oblivion summed it up easier then I did though, smart girl

Additional thought: The Tribunal religion does a pretty good job of getting benefit: they worshiped the "gods" they could see and that physical helped them, along with the "good" Daedra which gave them the boon of being in their good graces (well except for the Tribunal gods themselves that is), and viewed the "Bad" Daedra as something to test the people rather than outright reviling them to a point to royally [&@%!] them off

[ProphetDragon]

In the real world, it may be fine not to believe in God but that is not the case for the Elder Scrolls universe, in this world the gods are very close to the races and they (the gods) interact with the mortals on a regular basis, you can pray to various deities to gain various powers, etc. You cannot be an atheist in this world because you would 'know' that the gods are real and they are a part of the world.

[MidbossVyers]

Believing in the existence of someone and believing in someone are 2 different things. Generally, when I talk to someone, I believe that they are not figments of my imagination, but that does not mean that I will trust and obey every word that they say. The Nightingales, for example, do not worship Nocturnal but have a business contract with her. That's why Brynjolf can insist that he is not religious.