Auriel was the main god and ancestor of most Aldmer, and he fought Lorkhan and mankind. No trace of a dragon in this god (look at his statue in Skyrim : Dawguard). We know he defeated Lorkhan, had a bow, threw the heart, etc. He despises Orcs, by the way, which is a little strange if we take into account that Orcs are servants of his good buddy Trinimac, who at one point became Malacath because of a Daedric treachery.
Akatosh is the Dragon god of men. He helped them rebel against Ayleids and forged a covenant with Alessia (amulet of Kings). He vanquished Dagon when Martin Septim "summoned" him (sort of) at the end of the Oblivion main questline.
How would it be possible for these two gods to be, in fact, the same entity ?
Moreover, how can Imperials and Nords worship Akatosh, whereas Nords consider dragons as evil (Alduin, dragon cult...) and worship Lorkhan / Shor as their god and defender, precisely against Auriel and the Aldmer ? The same Aldmer Alessia sought to unite with men under a new pantheon, the Eight Divines...
I can't put sense into all this.
Akatosh / Auriel / Alduin / Lorkhan : I don't understand
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Re: Akatosh / Auriel / Alduin / Lorkhan : I don't understand
Auriel is an eagle. That's close enough to a dragon for me.
Also, Nords don't view dragons as evil. Dragonborns are their biggest cultural heroes, and Paarthurnax got on okay with them. Further, Akatosh was not responsible for Alduin's tyranny.
To the Nords, Talos is the first of the Twilight Gods. Lorkhan will be the only one to survive into the next kalpa. You can see why that might upset the elves, who are pretty invested in Auriel/Akatosh.
Also, Nords don't view dragons as evil. Dragonborns are their biggest cultural heroes, and Paarthurnax got on okay with them. Further, Akatosh was not responsible for Alduin's tyranny.
To the Nords, Talos is the first of the Twilight Gods. Lorkhan will be the only one to survive into the next kalpa. You can see why that might upset the elves, who are pretty invested in Auriel/Akatosh.
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Loxias
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Re: Akatosh / Auriel / Alduin / Lorkhan : I don't understand
I though dragons used to rule Nords as tyrants...
What is a kalpa ? How can anyone predict what will happen after the end of the world ?
And how come the Aldmer never talk about dragons ?
What is a kalpa ? How can anyone predict what will happen after the end of the world ?
And how come the Aldmer never talk about dragons ?
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Re: Akatosh / Auriel / Alduin / Lorkhan : I don't understand
The Nords are very clearly based on the actual Norse from real life. If you look up their mythology they had some awfully funny relationships with their gods, like a lot of ancient cultures did. It's not that inconceivable that beings widely considered to be "evil" do good things in old religions.
Reading through the lore it seems pretty clear to me that Auriel and Akatosh are supposed to be two different interpretations of the same deity. This also is not so unusual in real life. If you look at how different cultures view the Christian god and incorporate it into their myths it becomes pretty clear how a common narrative can be seen differently by different people. I mean, they might be two different deities, but the lore very heavily implies otherwise, despite the elves' contention that they've got it right and everyone else is wrong. This also reflects certain real-life religions.
There's kind of a misconception among some Elder Scrolls fans that the gods are supposed to be very active in Tamriel, like they are in many other role-playing games, and while you can read about them meddling a lot in the early days if you read the in-game lore it seems pretty clear that these days they're pretty much neutral in the affairs of men and mer, and very tight-lipped. The only reason you would think otherwise is that the games tend to take place during times when either the gods have chosen to interfere (the Avatar of Akatosh, etcetera) or some strange god-level [&@%!] happens to be going down (the Oblivion Crisis, the Warp in the West). In-between they're much more "mysterious ways" kinds of gods. This is also why it makes sense that there are so many Daedra worshippers running around: The Aedra are quiet, but the Daedra very much are not.
Every culture on Tamriel has interacted directly with the gods at some point, that much is clear, but in the meantime their stories have been influenced by the ages, and by the fact that different cultures have been witness to different things (the elves know that Auriel threw the heart of Lorkhan into Red Mountain because they live there, but the Bretons were nowhere near when that happened). The Khajiit and Argonians muddle things further, but it's noteworthy that the Argonians only have one deity in common with the rest of Tamriel, which speaks volumes about how their culture operates.
The relationship between Akatosh and Alduin is much less clear to me. There are theories that the two are some kind of polar opposite, kind of like the Avatar and the Guardian from the Ultima series, but I imagine it will be quite some time before we get any definite answers there.
Reading through the lore it seems pretty clear to me that Auriel and Akatosh are supposed to be two different interpretations of the same deity. This also is not so unusual in real life. If you look at how different cultures view the Christian god and incorporate it into their myths it becomes pretty clear how a common narrative can be seen differently by different people. I mean, they might be two different deities, but the lore very heavily implies otherwise, despite the elves' contention that they've got it right and everyone else is wrong. This also reflects certain real-life religions.
There's kind of a misconception among some Elder Scrolls fans that the gods are supposed to be very active in Tamriel, like they are in many other role-playing games, and while you can read about them meddling a lot in the early days if you read the in-game lore it seems pretty clear that these days they're pretty much neutral in the affairs of men and mer, and very tight-lipped. The only reason you would think otherwise is that the games tend to take place during times when either the gods have chosen to interfere (the Avatar of Akatosh, etcetera) or some strange god-level [&@%!] happens to be going down (the Oblivion Crisis, the Warp in the West). In-between they're much more "mysterious ways" kinds of gods. This is also why it makes sense that there are so many Daedra worshippers running around: The Aedra are quiet, but the Daedra very much are not.
Every culture on Tamriel has interacted directly with the gods at some point, that much is clear, but in the meantime their stories have been influenced by the ages, and by the fact that different cultures have been witness to different things (the elves know that Auriel threw the heart of Lorkhan into Red Mountain because they live there, but the Bretons were nowhere near when that happened). The Khajiit and Argonians muddle things further, but it's noteworthy that the Argonians only have one deity in common with the rest of Tamriel, which speaks volumes about how their culture operates.
The relationship between Akatosh and Alduin is much less clear to me. There are theories that the two are some kind of polar opposite, kind of like the Avatar and the Guardian from the Ultima series, but I imagine it will be quite some time before we get any definite answers there.
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Re: Akatosh / Auriel / Alduin / Lorkhan : I don't understand
Nords may despise dragons now, but this wasn't always the case. Long ago, the Nords followed and worshipped the dragons as they overthrew the elves, but somewhere along the way the dragon cults grew more demanding and domineering. Eventually they demanded a price the people were not willing to pay, and revolution erupted.
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Casandra: At the moment, the deadliest weapon at my disposal is a goblin's head on a stick. I'd be worried if this was the plan.
Casandra: At the moment, the deadliest weapon at my disposal is a goblin's head on a stick. I'd be worried if this was the plan.
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Re: Akatosh / Auriel / Alduin / Lorkhan : I don't understand
It's worth remembering Sir Brellin, a devout follower of Auriel who served his god as Akatosh. That indicates that the two are relatively interchangeable even in elven society.
"Firstborn" defines it pretty well, I thought. The biggest timeshard that fell from the Dragon God.Crawldragon wrote:The relationship between Akatosh and Alduin is much less clear to me. There are theories that the two are some kind of polar opposite, kind of like the Avatar and the Guardian from the Ultima series, but I imagine it will be quite some time before we get any definite answers there.
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Re: Akatosh / Auriel / Alduin / Lorkhan : I don't understand
They did in the meretheic era after Alduin cast aside his role as World Eater and decided to rule over mortals. It was all over Tamriel and the world but Akatosh intervened by granting the soul of a dragon to mortals. The first was Miraak and he was meant to put Alduin down. He didn't. The Dragon War happened and it was Paarthaunax who taught Nords to use the dragon tongue. It barely ended when Alduin was cast forward in time and was a last resort by the ancient dragonborns that fought him. He was banished by the Dovahkiin in 201 of the 4th era and he will return to end the world. Provided, the world isn't ended before he is forced to do his work.Loxias wrote:I though dragons used to rule Nords as tyrants...
What is a kalpa ? How can anyone predict what will happen after the end of the world ?
And how come the Aldmer never talk about dragons ?
The aldmer, i think they missed the dragon's rule or it's lost to history. To a nord, killing a dragon is an incredible act of valour.
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Re: Akatosh / Auriel / Alduin / Lorkhan : I don't understand
True, from a certain point of view.Loxias wrote:I though dragons used to rule Nords as tyrants...
A Kalpa is a single ride on the cosmic merry-go-round. And nobody can predict. Paarthurnax says even he can't.What is a kalpa ? How can anyone predict what will happen after the end of the world ?
Nords' ancestors served the Dragons, then rejected them. Aldmeri ancestors became Dragons. In a lot of ways they're a dark mirror for Humanity.And how come the Aldmer never talk about dragons ?
Monsters are bred in labyrinths, labyrinths are bred from walls. There is a reason the Giants choose to remain nomadic rather than follow their shield kin the Nords in building permanent settlements. The Tower is the beginning of all walls.
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Re: Akatosh / Auriel / Alduin / Lorkhan : I don't understand
Aldmeri dragons reminds me of the Nabateans from Fire Emblem 3 Houses.