Lore General Discussion!

[BetaB17]

For starters, Dagon didn't have it too bad. Yeah, his cult and alot of his worship may have been devastated. Yeah, maybe he did get banished from Nirn and forever lose his chance at such an ambitious gain. And yeah, he did just cause the barriers to oblivion to never fade again.. Bit you know what didn't happen? He didn't get banished from his own realm and thoroughly defeated by the wit of his rival. Dagon has been defeated pretty badly before, heck it wasn't too long ago that he was stabbed by a very annoying spear

Next up, Vile is charismatic, take his ego and words with salt, even when he's clearly desperate

More importantly is since when was Jygg considered weak? Yeah, maybe he was at his most vulnerable due to both the mantling process and early manifestation.. But he is far from weak. Had the mantling process not been completed and fate pre-decided.. He would of reclaimed his realm with the brute of his power with great ease. Jygg is but another side of the same coin with Sheo, and both are matched in power. Sheo is often regarded as one of the most powerful Princes, and time and time again will embarrass his siblings thru ingenuity alone. The only reason he is not feared as was Jygg is simply cause boredom is much easier cured than ambition

Last up, no, Sheo nor Hircine are confirmed to be credited with Bitter Mercy, despite both having bestowed it to others. Either it has no master and is a prize to whomever finds it, or some Princes mutually share ownership or can bestow gifts on another's behalf. Also Savior's Hide was multiple pieces, I believe most were lost in Battlespire >_> and that Malacath for some reason may have played some purpose to their creation (cause seriously, what prince would knowingly create a weapon that can be used on themselves if u lucky) I would however love to see them make a reappearance, if not with their own identity and be but the supplements to the artifact

[The SheoDovah]

Whilst Dagon didn't have it too badly, he did have most of his army wiped out. Assuming that each province inflicted massive amount of losses and got zerg rushed by the Argonians to the point where Dagons Forces raged quit their attempts. He didn't care about his cult, it was his tool and Mankar may have been rewarded but once the invasion was complete? Off with his head or hand over to Molag Bal if they are pals.

Vile is indeed an egostical prince and probably would carve VILE WAS HERE if he could all over Nirn.

I feel that Sheogorath is amongst the powerful Princes. He rarely lets on that he is smarter and more devious then everyone thinks he is. Hircine found out when his prized Daedroth killed itself in a fight against a tiny bird. Malacath was tricked into killing his own son and so forth. If Sheogorath wanted to, he probably could take over Nirn without actually invading. Trick mortals into killing each other via madness and paranoia, manipulation of battles and probably, weaponise everything. Killer flowers, giant firebreathing rabbits, moons throwing themselves at Nirn, which he did to Vivec after being offended by the Tribunal etc.. Jygglag is weakened by his battle with Champogorath and needs a realm to rebuild his power. I did hear a theory that Peryrite ate him but that may have been an MK thing.

I think a prince that would create a weapon that could be used on themselves is a very cocky one. I could see Mora having created it and making sure it finds it's way to who he wants it to be. Either out of curiosity or because he hates everyone and is the nerd of the group. Only, he knows everything and is quite powerful.

Malacath is said to be unpopular at parties. Either Sheogorath was being Sheogorath about it or Princes have gatherings and Malacath did something that made him the most hated prince. The spear could have been that. They would be like "What the Oblivion, Malacath!? We agreed no artifacts that can kill us or be used against us!"

[BetaB17]

Daedric armies aren't like your convention type. They're immortal(?), and are relatively easy to replace. That is to say not the case when it comes to resources, lifetimes worth of planning, and the unexpected backlash resulting in, may I say, minimal damage to his own realm in the grand scheme of things

Aside from the bruised ego and loss of so many Sigil's and even a seige engine, the worst he had suffered was for all his planning to have failed when he was ever so close to victory. At least he can take pride in the resulting devastation and scar on history he left(oh and the permanent establishment of the barrier) Per the cult, seriously, what daedea dont use their fodder as tools? They are like ants, but the difference you see, no matter how cruel, is that they were HIS ants

Per the comment on Sheo and how he would take Tamriel. Umm, isn't that essential what all daedra have been trying to do? How has that been working so far?? Honestly, while any Prince would gladly claim Nirn if they could, Sheo has displayed a lacking interest on conquest even within the realms of oblivion, which is good mind ya. But at least with Nirn, its so much better to let it be it's own, a playground where you spend your idle love. Just as always, daedra, man, or mortal god.. He demands respect and we've seen his response to being scuffed at

On a side note, I've always regarded Sheo up their in terms of power with the likes of Azura, Boethea, and maybe even Mora and Mephala. Also no, whoever thought of Peryite consuming Jygg is crazy(natural order =/= absolute order) not to mention Jygg very well could have been reabsorbed into Sheo, never truly freed I.e its complicated

Also it makes no sense why Mora would do something so stupid, and likely predictable to his own knowledge. It makes no sense, that's all I have to say on that subject

[The SheoDovah]

True but I think he would spend a few months at least having a giant angry hissy fit around his realm and smashing stuff up before deciding to slowly bring back his ants. He did techincally win. It's just that Martin turned into a dragon god and kicked his ass. Molag may be a bit smug after seeing Dagon's defeat. "Lost did you?" "Shut up!"

Sheogorath is Sheogorath. He'll demand respect one day, then the next? Turn you into a chicken then demand respect. It is fortunate that he views invasion as boring or just perfers to drive indiviuals insane instead of an entire realm. Azura has no interest in invading(so far) and Merida probably would invade just to murder all Necromancers, Undead and bring her light to the mortal realm.

[legoless]

Seems like an oversimplification to be talking about most of these Princes "invading". I'd say relatively few have the metaphysical mandate.

[SarthesArai]

Wasn't it the Sword of Moon Reiver that was used to defead dagon during his invasion of the battlespire?
And regarding artifacts that can harm daedra, "Scourge, Blessed of Malacath is [...] dedicated [...] to mortals, and any Daedra who attempts to invoke its power will be banished to the Void. It also has the ability to banish them to the Void with a single blow [...]".
Additionally, the Ring of Khajiiti is assotiated with both Meridia (Daggerfall & Oblivion) and Mephala (Morrowind), so why can't two princes be patron of an item at different times? Especially since many items were created by mortals and are just "given away" by princes (Spellbreaker and Volendrung were originaly dwarven items, the Mace of molag bal and Umbra were at least created by mortals; for most other items, simply nothing is known about their origins). Maybe all so-called "daedric" artifacts are just mortal creations with a bit of daedric magic, where a certain prince has taken patronage of.

[legoless]

A Daedric artifact contains that Prince's divine power, so I'd say switching patronage is far from the norm. Volendrung might be Dwarven but it was corrupted by Malacath. Umbra may have been created by a (supposed) mortal, but she did so by using a significant amount of Vile's own power.

[The SheoDovah]

I think stealing a prized possession of the dwarves would have been the result of one of them doing something to really annoy Malacath. Claiming it as his own and eliminating all of it's history would be petty but Princes are not above being petty. Umbra is interest in the regard that Vile's own power was involved and does open the possiblity of stealing a Prince's power but I could see Vile having been tricked into making a deal and the whole bad part of it backfired on him.

On an interesting note, we have two weakened Princes in the 4th Era. Dagon suffered a major defeat and I would assume that Akatosh's avatar did a massive number on him and Vile is at his weakest as a result of the Umbra crisis. Just an interesting point. I wonder if Bethesda has something planned involving weak princes in the future?

I do wonder if they will interfer with the current political climate of Tamriel. I mean, it is practically begging for Vile to go crazy with making deals, Sheogorath well, being Sheogorath, Sanguine getting people hammered and bloodied etc.. I could see TESVI featuring a Tamriel in ruins because of Princes not directly interferring but in their usual mortal interactions. Lord Naarifin being a Boethiah Cultist could be a hint at what to expect.

[ProphetDragon]

How long do you think high elves live?

[BetaB17]

How long do you think high elves live?

However long they're willing to go.

Oh, you meant naturally, well that's a bit difficult to say. Magic already plays a large factor >_> then you have common practices that help extend lifespans, and as of course you got those that are willing to abuse any avenue

The problem here is, with Altmer or Dunmer, it largely plays with genetics, class status, and circumstances of life. Ya, someone who is poor won't have the same options as someone in highbirth or a clan.. Not to mention quality of life and less exposure to disease..

It's also safe to say less elves reach their maximum lifespan as say opposed to beast or man. Living longer equally allows more chance to die early due to disease or violence, and it would seem elvish lifespans vary to a much greater degree

Still >_> I forget where the wiki stands on it, but alot of people accept most altmer and dunmer can live hundreds of years, with the possibility of up to thousands. None the less, naturally(or even sub-natural) Altmer and Dunmer live the longest out of any mortal race

[ProphetDragon]

I remember hearing that some of them even remember Tiber Septim attack Summerset Isles, that means they should live for over 500 years, right? Then do they take twice the time to go through puberty?

[The SheoDovah]

They live twice/thrice as long as humans and would mean 300 is the natural lifespan of Altmers but it is possible some long lived Altmer are behind it via using magic to extend their lives. Neloth is still around in the fourth era and is likely to have used magic to extend his life or showed no signs of slowing down if he is pushing the 300+ mark.

There's no real hard proof of what the ages are of each race but elves do live the longest. Being around since the time of Tiber would place them as powerful mages who have extended their lifespans several times.

My sources are the wiki and i'm basing it on the human races having a natural 100 year life span. That said, most don't reach it due to Tamriel being a dangerous place and i would place Nords as having an average of 60 years due to their culture.

[BetaB17]

]@PD: Yes and no. Some could live longer far longer than others. This is especially true for mages(in a society that values them highly) and general esteem. I mean look no further Divayth, the best possible example to longevity. Not had he, and many Telvanni wizards, lived to see mortals become gods and chimer to be dunmer >_> but he very much looks in good health and mind given how ancient he truly is

But that's just the best example, and not one that is common enough to be a standard. It just goes to show how far power, wisdom, and manipulation can extend one's own life. Still, per the Altmer since the age of Tiber, I wouldn't be too surprised if prominent members lived to see their revenge.

Also per elves and how they mature >_> old is old by any standard, whether your 300 or 500, difference being who's older is then elder. But ironically, and likely to their benefit, birthrates are fairly low. Good for a more productive society and avoiding overpopulation, not so good when war or a disaster takes place.

Still, from what lore hints at, it seems elves develops at a similar rate per humans till full maturity. Young female elves are exceptionally, how do I say, hormonal. Which makes sense, biologically you'll want to take advantage of when your most fertile when birthrates are so very low

Still, this isn't a subject by no standard I'm an expert at

[The SheoDovah]

This is why you don't cheat by using massive gollems powered by the heart of a god to win your wars. Sooner or later, the Altmers get their revenge.

But I think out of the biggest losses in the Great War, the Dominion lost a whole lot more due to how Altmers age and birthrates. Imperial Legion can replace men quickly and the benefit of recruiting in Skyrim is that most know how to fight. The Dominion pretty much may have to use conscripts,prisoners and other sacrifical lambs if they don't even have the numbers to launch a second invasion and i think that is the case due to them losing the bulk of their army.

[BetaB17]

Speculation and all, I honestly gotta say elven armies likely are better than their human counterparts, at least on the individual level. Skill and seasoned warriors are one part, more mages and a mix of disciplines, and also superior materials. The Dominion may have a stranger hand at even numbers, but a loss for them is much harder to recover from than say the kingdoms of man(history proves that much)

Fact alone, it took Tiber to use a literal machine god to even conquer Summerset, something previously impossible.. This is a testament to how strong the Altmer are in their own domain. Tho Walking Brass made it seem like child's play

The thing is now, the Dominion has the Khajiit to help supplement their forces, the bosmer make for the greatest archers and scouts. And even a basic altmer soldier may know enough to conjure his/her own blades. And worst yet, the Dominion knows how to prey on the Empire's weakness and age old disputes with it's provinces. One loss hardly compares to the devastation they brought

[The SheoDovah]

They had the best navy at the time and even if Tiber's navy bested them, they would be faced with an army of battlemages, powerful battlemages and probably result in Tiber being defeat at best, Alinor being destroyed due to magical battles tearing it asunder.

The Dominion have to value each soldier due to the numbers game being in favour of the humans. It could take a few months to train a basic legionaire whilst a Dominion soldier takes a few years. Magic is their most powerful tool whilst the Legion relies on numbers nowadays. They don't have said numbers and never recovered from the Oblivion Crisis due to the chaos that followed. I could see the Legionaires we saw in Oblivion being depleted just by trying to maintain order. They have a skeleton crew in Cyrodiil, assuming that the reason why the COC couldn't get their help was because of the skeleton crew that was guarding Cyrodiil being caught off guard by the crisis and not having a backup plan for keeping the provinces stable. Morrowind was abandoned which pretty much reduced Dunmer support. Nords most likely worked with the legion to keep back the hordes of Dagon etc...

They could be low on funding and well, it doesn't really bode well for the Legion. I could see it ceasing to exist by TESVI's era due to failures by it's leadership, failures with equipment etc..

[MidbossVyers]

In terms of Dunmer gaining the protection from the spirits of their ancestors, does this only apply to spirits who have not yet "passed on", or can spirits who have "passed on" be called back for general or specific purposes?

[BetaB17]

Dunmeri afterlife is a fickle and tricky topic.

That is all I have to say(cause any answer I give could do it more justice)

[MidbossVyers]

Is it racially inherent, a learned technique, or both? In other words, if a non-Dunmer learned Dunmer methods of praying to their ancestors, would it have the same effect (obviously, I'm implying the ancestors of the one who is praying)?

[BetaB17]

In terms of afterlife as featured in TES, its a complicated and unknown process. It can be based on merits, belief, fate, and even blood. The question of whether they reach paradise, torment, or rebirth is subjective.

A nord has their desired place of afterlife, something fairly exclusive to their own and belief, it reflects them as a people. Much in a similar means as the Far Shores for the redguards. Belief and race plays large part, tho, I doubt exceptions have not been made.

You also have the subject on 'where' that afterlife is at. In aetherius like most? Maybe even in the veil of oblivion despite it's innocence. Or maybe even within mundas itself. To each their own I suppose.. And pocket realms are hardly a rare concept

You also have to keep in mind ancestral worship is a common concept, with many elven societies taking it to high esteem >_> in a very religious sense.

Chimer/Dunmer differ from their southern cousins. They learned from the daedra, heed their own laws, forged life to their creed. You must understand, many elven cultures deeply despise necromancy and manipulation of the dead Granted this doesn't extend to say 'lesser' races. To me, it makes no surprise that the Dunmer would dabble closer to taboo, and as such, even create a process unique to them and their worship

It's a hard subject to discuss, cause not only do we know so little of the metaphysics behind it all.. But what is explained is in itself disputed on it's own(I.e ancestral worship is/isn't based on necromancy). It's more convoluted than Lorkhan :/

[legoless]

In terms of Dunmer gaining the protection from the spirits of their ancestors, does this only apply to spirits who have not yet "passed on", or can spirits who have "passed on" be called back for general or specific purposes?

They don't "pass on". When the Dunmer speak of their ancestors, they're talking about the souls of their housekin who have been bound within their ancestral tomb through necromantic process. Read Ancestors and the Dunmer for more info.

[The SheoDovah]

Ghosts are implied to be people who can't move on after death due to something holding them back. Throughout the Ages quest is an excellent example of what death can do to peple and how they may not actually move on until someone helps them. Uriel Septim VII knew he wouldn't become a ghost as he accepted his fate. Two different people who died in shady ways. Well, one died in a shady way, one had to die because Akatosh is a bit of a N'wah at times.

Dunmer and Nords share the same thing with regards to ancestors. Dunmer speak to the souls. Nords build elobrate family tombs if they are rich or speak fondly of their ancestors. Think they are the two races who give a lot of honour to their dead. That said, Nords probably have drinking contests about who died in the most glorious way due to Sovngarde.


Speaking of afterlife, it's a bit odd Archmage Traven didn't make an appearance in it in Skyrim. Could just be because it wasn't worth including him but just a bit odd due to confirmation of where all soultrapped souls go to.

[ProphetDragon]

Question: How long do Bretons live?

[BetaB17]

Longer than most men, but not long enough

So basically, what you could come to expect from optimal life expectancy IRL

[Dark Spark]

I have not been able to recall the specific work of reference in-game, but I read a passage that described Bretons as 'cursed' with a short lifespan. But that is most likely from the perspective of an elf writing that book. To his eyes, Bretons have the skill and power of an elf, but the short lifespan of a human. Thus, they got the short stick in the draw.