Lore General Discussion!

[Pilaf The Defiler]

It's gotta be Animi because I recorded it as such in the Necronomicon in the forgotten city in the desert of eternal sorrows. I spent an entire weekend doing that, so you're not allowed to take it away. If you do, I'll tell Hestra on you and then you'll be super sorry on a level beyond normal human comprehension.

[Dark Spark]

...I recorded it as such in the Necronomicon in the forgotten city in the desert of eternal sorrows. ...

When exactly were you ever in the Inland Empire?

[legoless]

It's gotta be Animi because I recorded it as such in the Necronomicon in the forgotten city in the desert of eternal sorrows. I spent an entire weekend doing that, so you're not allowed to take it away. If you do, I'll tell Hestra on you and then you'll be super sorry on a level beyond normal human comprehension.

Unless Hestra wants to end up marked in a dremora's Oghma of Inevitable Retribution as well, she'll keep her distance tyvm.

[MidbossVyers]

I noticed that, while many see that dark elf views on Lorkhan and Mundus are closer to most human views on the matter than most elven views. The Redguard, Skaal, and Breton views on Lorkhan appear to be closer to those of most elven views, in that Lorkhan is something "evil", in other words, Sep, the Greedy Man, and the Bad Man, respectively.

[legoless]

I noticed that, while many see that dark elf views on Lorkhan and Mundus are closer to most human views on the matter than most elven views. The Redguard, Skaal, and Breton views on Lorkhan appear to be closer to those of most elven views, in that Lorkhan is something "evil", in other words, Sep, the Greedy Man, and the Bad Man, respectively.

Indeed, although afaik the Bretons adopted Talos worship in the Third Era, and lots of Redguards have been members of the Blades and the Talos Cult. The Skaal are full-on totem worshippers and have Dragon Cult blood, so they didn't go through the same Lorkhanic transformation that the mainland Nords did.

[MidbossVyers]

Necromancy opponents often state that "any institution of magic risks its own survival by disregarding the overwhelming public sentiment against necromancy". http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy Therefore, it is ironic that it was the ban on necromancy, rather than necromancy itself, that destroyed the Imperial Mages Guild, sundering it into the Synod and the College of Whispers. Haha, Arch-Mage Traven.

[legoless]

Necromancy opponents often state that "any institution of magic risks its own survival by disregarding the overwhelming public sentiment against necromancy". http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Necromancy Therefore, it is ironic that it was the ban on necromancy, rather than necromancy itself, that destroyed the Imperial Mages Guild, sundering it into the Synod and the College of Whispers. Haha, Arch-Mage Traven.

Well, I wouldn't necessarily draw that conclusion. Agreeing not to perform necromacy is what allowed the Mages Guild to even operate on Vvardenfell after it opened for settlement, and during the Planemeld the Mages Guild prospered from disassociating itself with the Black Art and the Imperials. Galerion was right in assuming that provincials wouldn't be open to the idea of necromancy, and it was his anti-necromancy policies that led to the necessity of black soul gems, a major hindrance for modern aspiring anchorites.

We don't actually know what destroyed the Mages Guild at the end of the Third Era. Mannimarco's plot might have contributed to it (e.g. the dissolution of the Council of Mages, the loss or desertion of many high-ranking members), but he did not succeed in his plans to attack the University and make Traven his thrall. What's more likely is that the strong anti-magic sentiment after the Oblivion Crisis led to its collapse. The arch-mage disappearing into a door in Niben Bay probably didn't help either though...

[Dark Spark]

...the fact the Arch Mage could have attained that position while having no appreciable skill in magic may have been a factor, too.

[MidbossVyers]

Well, Morrowind has kind of a weird relationship with its dead. Dark elves do not consider ancestor spirit magic to be necromancy, but many non-dark elves do. Ah, yes, during the Planemeld, the Mages Guild was no longer Empire-backed, despite the fact that many people call it the "Imperial Mages Guild" in order to distinguish it from other mages' associations, huh?

[BetaB17]

. Their ancestral worship an belief can be compared or subjected with necromancy, and their disagreement on that can be up to debate, but much to with the Dunmer lies in hypocrisy. It is sternly disapproved and even forbidden to preform the dark arts on dead dunmer/chimer, yet it is perfectly fine to do the same to 'lesser' races. They also seem to be rather hostile to many undead namely vampires but its understandable why.

If anything, the mages guild setting up a charter there would have little to do with a ban on necromancy. They themselves werent strong supporters for it, and dunmeri law already had a clear stance on it. If anything it had to do with their imperial influence. With the Telvanni already dominating magic in the region, why would you want a competing faction that is also an outsider? Just saying

[legoless]

Ah, yes, during the Planemeld, the Mages Guild was no longer Empire-backed, despite the fact that many people call it the "Imperial Mages Guild" in order to distinguish it from other mages' associations, huh?

I kind of doubt anyone called it that during the Planemeld, since the Imperial-chartered guild of mages at the time was the Worm Cult Fellowship of Anchorites.

If anything, the mages guild setting up a charter there would have little to do with a ban on necromancy. They themselves werent strong supporters for it, and dunmeri law already had a clear stance on it. If anything it had to do with their imperial influence. With the Telvanni already dominating magic in the region, why would you want a competing faction that is also an outsider? Just saying

In 3E 427 it was an oddity for the Vvardenfell Mages Guild to ban necromancy. Remember Sharn gra-Muzgob? She calls the guild "essential for research" and she's a straight-up necromancer. The Dunmer also comment on the romantic allure of vampires in Imperial culture, compared to their Temple-backed vilification on Vvardenfell. Before Traven the guild was overflowing with necromancers in Cyrodiil and elsewhere, which is what caused so much controversy when he was appointed Arch-Mage.

[MidbossVyers]

I notice that the Daedric quests in Oblivion were more clever than the ones in Skyrim. For example, in many of the Oblivion Daedric quests, what you mostly did was goad the mortals into screwing themselves over. For example, tricking the paladin into breaking his promise with his dead wife in Molag Bal's quest and starting what is apparently the prequel to Romeo and Juliet in Mephala's quest. Meanwhile, in Skyrim, both Molag Bal's and Mephala's quests require much more directly violent approaches, especially Mephala's "after-quest".

Also, in terms of overall schemes, Mannimarco never seems to fail. For example, in ESO, the only reason that he helped Molag Bal with the Plane Meld was to assure his own apotheosis. He failed at that time but gained the power of the Mantella in Daggerfall. His incarnation in Oblivion acted to destroy the Mages Guild. While he did not successfully do so himself, the Mages Guild eventually tore itself apart, becoming the Synod and the College of Whispers. Besides being a master necromancer, Mannimarco also appears to be a master strategist.

[The SheoDovah]

Think I am just inside the limit thus not nercroposting. I apologise if that's not the case.


I've heard a bit of an interesting theory that Sheogorath could have been trolling the COC during the events of the Shivering Isles by creating the illusion that the isles were at risk of being destroyed by Jyggalag. Whilst I could see the Madgod doing that just because it amuses him, I seriously hope that never becomes a reality as it ruins the importance of Mantling Sheogorath along with making the SI pointless. Apparently, Sheogorath is constantly trapped in the cycle and is never freed from it due to a pattern of Sheogorath, Jyggalag, Mantled by mortal, turned back into Sheogorath. I really hope this was just Zenimax throwing the Q&A that is said to have revealed this in just to confuse everyone or cast doubt and it is not cannon.

I think Sheogorath could potentially change the political landscape of TESVI just by toying with the important figures if he ever had the passing fancy to do so. E.g. He decides Skyrim getting a new high king is ever so boring so he causes the new high king to grow an obessession with collecting calipers. He turns the leaders of the Aldmeri Dominion insane just because he wants to see what happens when insanity does to the war etc.. I could see Bethesda going "Er.... Sheogorath happened. Thus why the second great war never happened." If they(and it is very unlikely) run out of ideas of how to continue the current state of Tamriel.

[MetaCthulhu]

Okay quick question: If I summoned a Daedric Prince right on the edge outside of the anti-magic zone, and that Daedric Prince happened to "trip" into said anti-magic zone, and then I repeatedly stabbed said Prince, what would happen if he died?

[BetaB17]

Theoretically? Anything, including failure. But this is to take into account if TES even can have anti-magic fields >_> and whether their enough to nullify the magnitude that is a Prince

In hindsight, you'll probably have better luck banishing one from his own realm.. Or even more challenging.. Taking its power for yourself by force(Umbra too OP, needs nerf) You also got the equally theoretical choices of trapping one within the realm of Atherius(preferably one of Padomaic nature) or casting em out to the endless Void

[legoless]

Okay quick question: If I summoned a Daedric Prince right on the edge outside of the anti-magic zone, and that Daedric Prince happened to "trip" into said anti-magic zone, and then I repeatedly stabbed said Prince, what would happen if he died?

The nature of a Daedric Lord isn't based on magicka. In fact, Aetherius directly counters the Daedra. If there was a Prince walking on Nirn, there'd be bigger metaphysical problems to worry about.

[The SheoDovah]

The only thing that prevents a Prince from walking around with all of their power is the Dragonfires. It reinforces the walls between Nirn and the realms of Oblivion. Mehrunes Dagon had to rely on the Mythic Dawn to start his invasion and even then, he was limited by the weakening walls else he would have zerg rushed the entire contient at once. It's only at the climax of the Oblivion Crisis that he was able to step into Nirn with all of his power intact and it required Akatosh to intervene via an avatar.

On Nirn, they can only use avatars and have a very small amount of influence. E.g. Sheogorath's burning dog rain. Mehrune's Dremora Lords being summoned etc.. Sanguine did this in Skyrim with the DragonBorn.

The walls were pretty much reinforced and permanently sealed by Martin Septim's Sacrifice and eliminated the need for the Dragonfires.

[BetaB17]

The Dragonfires haven't always stayed lit, nor have they always existed. And even when they in effect, Daedra have found less directs routes to physically manifest >_> such as Hircine for his bloodmoon and Herma Mora with his black books.

We've seen what the Daedra can do without restraints(Oblivion Crisis or Planesmeld anybody?) and that's just from their influence upon Nirn, could you imagine how much worse it would be had they physically manifested in their full glory for a prolonged time? Random gates or the theft of every mortal soul would be the last of our worries...

[The SheoDovah]

Good point.

It would be a right mess and probably result in an endless war between everyone. Dagon wants to destroy stuff, Molag wants to dominate, Sheogorath and Sanguine want to troll or maim people etc..

[BetaB17]

You know what? I really like the new statue of Sithis that ESO added, really adds more context to the dread father

Hidden:

On second thought, I prefer the robe and whole bandage face thing more.. (Still would be more accurate if the statue was really just an empty altar, cause ya know, void)

[The SheoDovah]

It is a very nice statue but kinda torn between liking it as Sithis and it not being suitable. Sithis is the void and death kinda doesn't give a darn about being fancy. Sithis, if i recall, is the Grim Reaper of TES and claims death via his agents in the Dark Brotherhood. It kinda is too fancy and seems to be closer to Daedra then whatever Sithis is.


On an unrelated note(Mainly because of Oblivion). I think Bethesda confirmed what artifact the COC destroyed as part of the main quest of Oblivion without actually mentioning it. The Ring of Khajiit. It doesn't appear in Skyrim and everything else does. Apart from Umbra but that is covered in the novels. Wabbajack seems rather normal in apperance. I wonder if it was a subtle hint at what was to come? It kinda looks like it would belong to the forces of Order then the Madgod. Skyrim, It is 3 faces of Sheogorath and screams Sheogorath. Smells of Sheogorath as well. Oblivion's is rather odd in appearance.

[BetaB17]

Well you gotta understand first how and why the undefined artifact was destroyed, and further more, which ones display unique/abnormal properties or lack there of

If memory serves correct, the artifact was needed to extract padomaic blood I.e the source in essence to the artifact's power and link to its Prince. Obviously, it makes sense that extraction would result in the artifact's destruction, likely crumbling to dust and unable to persist

Contrast that with say, Umbra, which not only was created with the theft of a Prince's power, but further more went for round 2 and took more than it's fair share >_> Umbra rises above the standard of other artifacts and became more so an entity to fear. The artifact was (presumably) destroyed in it's entirety due to the sheer circumstance and the rift. Likely something near impossible to repeat..

However mind ya this, for any other artifact, what gain does the Prince have to let it be destroyed, or stay that way I mean, in regards to the extraction, what's to stop a Prince from re imbuing that essence, especially when its to their own benefit.l. And that's just from working on the assumption the ritual can indeed destroy the artifact. But then look at Umbra. Vile never should of allowed it back into his realm, he never should of so foolishly been preyed upon. He would be an absolute idiot to want to recreate those same conditions that lead to that disaster. He may indeed wish to reclaim any ounce of power that he had poured or drained by that blade.. but recreating it will do him no help

Lastly, per properties or lack there of. There is one daedric artifact in Oblivion that has in lore been created in a process I find both poetic and unique. Sanguine's Rose It may not be the strongest, it may not be the most special, but shucks a god is literally handing you a rose <3 Oh, and that unlike many artifacts that fade away as they please, the staff wilts away upon continued use till it's blessing fades and the rose is born a new within the realm of Sanguine, where he plucks one of his choosing to hand to a mortal once more.

Think about it. It's certainly one of the weaker artifacts with it's most impressive quality being it's own death and rebirth. It certainly would take much to recreate this artifact had it been properly destroyed. Plus, there is a bit of joy to see Martin Septim hold the rose once more but this time for more noble and selfless cause

[The SheoDovah]

I know. I think the Prince had no idea that their plaything would destroy their reward to stop Dagon or simply didn't care or were curious to see how Martin Septim's ritual went. I could see Mora allowing his artifact to be destroyed as it seems to be the first time a mortal performed that ritual, Mankar Cameron aside and this is without the help of Dagon. The COC pretty much barges into Paradise and that would make Mora go "Interesting. Do go on."

But I could also see them wanting to stop Dagon from hoarding all the mortals and turning a blind eye to their artifact(or in Sheogorath's case, being bored of having Wabbajack. He either is bored of it in the 4th Era or doesn't care who gets it as long as madness happened. Assuming that the COC mantled him after the OC in the same year).

The Ring is rather meh in Oblivion and Merida has far powerful artifacts. It is interesting that she replaced it with Dawnbreaker. The Ring of Khajiit could just be one of her lesser things and not really giving a darn about what happens to it.

Vile overestimated Umbra and paid for it dearly. It is implied that the Dragonborn in the 4th Era is actually on the same power levelled a severly weakend Vile. Going from being a powerful thing to Akatosh's tool having the same power level as you has got to be a kick in the ego for him.

It is heartwarming seeing Martin finally getting to atone for using the Rose. I never thought about it being a literal rose in Sanguine's realm. I wonder if Sheogorath's favourite fork is just that? Random forks he turns into his toys whenever he is bored.

[BetaB17]

'It is implied that the Dragonborn in the 4th Era is actually on the same power levelled a severly weakend Vile'

Correction, Vile said "your almost as powerful as me" which is impressive, yes, but keep in mind he says this after having been wrecked by Umbra.. and having his power split by Barbas at the time. It's an understatement to just describe how low he fell at that moment.. And yet he even takes the moment to gloat his superiority over the DB even without Barbas's help.

Also, may that I state this, there are many daedric artifacts that don't make a reappearance. Scourge for one, and what about Spear of Bitter Mercy(still no clue who owns that piece), and hell in a way Savior's Hide used to be a full set.. Now we only see the chest piece which is indeed just the fraction of the whole(granted, that fraction does the job, tho don't try picking fights with any Princes now)

[The SheoDovah]

Good point but to say that to a mortal. Granted, said mortal has the soul of a Dovah and can kill people with words whilst literally shouting at time itself to slow down etc... but it takes a lot for a Prince to say that they are almost as powerful as them. Barbas was kicked out by Vile and may have instantly regretted it after realising that the dog that annoys him is his other half. Even Peryrite could be more powerful then 4th Era Vile. Heck, Jyggalag could be more powerful and he got his ass kicked by Champogorath and seems to be off rebuilding his powerbase.

I did not know that about the Saviours Hide but i could see Hircine changing his mind on a full set of armour and deciding that a single piece is far more worthy then an entire set. The Spear of Bitter Mercy could have been abandoned by Sheogorath(It is his, right?) after being bored by it. Or lost a bet with Sanguine and had to get rid of it as part of the bet etc..

It is interesting that Mehrunes Dagon seems to be recovering fast from his defeat in the 4th Era. Granted, 200 years is a lot but would be quick for a Prince and if i recall, he seems to be back or nearing his previous power level. To see Akatosh's tool(in his view) must have both amused and infuriate him due to Akatosh kicking his arse in the 3rd era. Or he just had a 200 year hissy fit in his realm, destroyed it many times and realised that destroying his home was a really bad idea.