Unfortunate ESO Retcons (Gripe Thread)

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I like the idea that the different Houses have different colored hats they don't usually wear. They're ceremonial things, maybe, like the ones the Shriners wear. Imagine Neloth with his little pez.

[legoless]

I like the idea that the different Houses have different colored hats they don't usually wear. They're ceremonial things, maybe, like the ones the Shriners wear. Imagine Neloth with his little pez.

[AKB]

I get the distinct feeling that this is a dated tradition. And Neloth's scowl agrees.

[Imbalance]

In Morrowind, scant attention was drawn to some specific bonemold headgear, quest items of the Redoran - the Founder's and Master's helms.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I like the idea that these are still used as ceremonial items, like in Masonic societies or some such. It's not specifically stated in the official lore, but it thematically fits the whole Great House idea.

[Bauglir100]

The Doors of Oblivion has to have the dumbest retcon I've ever seen in my life. This goes beyond "Why can't we have more than one follower at a time?", or "Why can't we fight while in the water?". Those could be excused for technical reasons. But THIS?!

They deliberately included a book that shouldn't even have been written yet, and then rewrite parts of it to make it seem like it came from THAT era instead of when it was really written.

Did it not occur to these game developers that they could've simply NOT HAD THE BOOK THERE AT ALL?! Would anyone have been confused by its absence? Would there be millions of angry people screaming for Bethesda to be burnt to the ground if they didn't include it? Not even George Lucas made retcons that were that utterly blatant and stupid when he made the Special Editions of the original Star Wars Trilogy. Even the Blu-Ray changes made more sense.

[The SheoDovah]

It's easier to rewrite parts of one book then come up with an entirely new one. But it's not really a big retcon. Just a very questionable one. Same with all the books that are 3rd Era and 4th Era somehow appearing in the second era. Timey Wimey stuff may be the lore reason but techincal reason? easier to copy and paste. :-/

[AngryNord]

The Doors of Oblivion has to have the dumbest retcon I've ever seen in my life. This goes beyond "Why can't we have more than one follower at a time?", or "Why can't we fight while in the water?". Those could be excused for technical reasons. But THIS?!

They deliberately included a book that shouldn't even have been written yet, and then rewrite parts of it to make it seem like it came from THAT era instead of when it was really written.

Did it not occur to these game developers that they could've simply NOT HAD THE BOOK THERE AT ALL?! Would anyone have been confused by its absence? Would there be millions of angry people screaming for Bethesda to be burnt to the ground if they didn't include it? Not even George Lucas made retcons that were that utterly blatant and stupid when he made the Special Editions of the original Star Wars Trilogy. Even the Blu-Ray changes made more sense.

My personal theory is that at the start, ESO was to be set in the post-Skyrim era, but they were ordered by Bethesda to change that in order to not conflict with future single-player TES games. Someone didn't do their job properly though, and all that 3rd/4th era stuff remained in the game, leading someone else to have to make up the Dragon Break excuse.

[legoless]

My personal theory is that at the start, ESO was to be set in the post-Skyrim era, but they were ordered by Bethesda to change that in order to not conflict with future single-player TES games. Someone didn't do their job properly though, and all that 3rd/4th era stuff remained in the game, leading someone else to have to make up the Dragon Break excuse.

ESO was in development since before Skyrim, so I don't think that theory holds water.

[AngryNord]

My personal theory is that at the start, ESO was to be set in the post-Skyrim era, but they were ordered by Bethesda to change that in order to not conflict with future single-player TES games. Someone didn't do their job properly though, and all that 3rd/4th era stuff remained in the game, leading someone else to have to make up the Dragon Break excuse.

ESO was in development since before Skyrim, so I don't think that theory holds water.

Uh? They apparently started work on ESO shortly after Oblivion. If they originally intended to set in the post-Oblivion era, the release of Skyrim might well have been what changed that.

[The SheoDovah]

Bethesda didn't work on ESO and it was Skyrim that was worked on just after Oblivion. Zenimax could have done the same but i think it would have been after Skyrim due to the state of MMORPGs at the time. Don't know much about that genre but i think 10 years ago, it was considered not worth doing and porting over to consoles was a big no due to limitations. Bethesda merely works with Zenimax to make sure no major lore is contradicted. Things like books from the third and fourth eras may be something they have trusted Zenimax with or the small team(assuming that they created an advisory lore team) had too much on their hands and elected to let books through in favour of focusing on what Zenimax wanted.

But Knights of the Eight is a dumb faction. I mean, it's just comes off(i read the wiki page) as a wannabe Knights of the Nine but can't as Bethesda flat out refused to allow that be used thus Zenimax created their own version. If it was a generic holy order, it wouldn't really matter but it comes off as wanting to be KOTN but settling for KOTE instead because of lore.

ESO would have been impossible to do in a post Skyrim setting due to the walls of Oblivion being upgraded by Martin Septim. To have Molag invade, that would require a lot of careful approaches without retconning the walls or changing Martin's Sacrifice to just uberpowermantime. That and kinda would open it to questions like "Why can't we shout! Where's the dragons, why are there no dragons!" etc.. from newcomers to the franchise who played Skyrim but not into lore. That and Bethesda most likely have reserved all future settings for the main TES games. Zenimax the publisher and owner could force Bethesda to change that but so far, they are happy with ESO.

Then I saw Legoless's post and did not know ESO was in development before Skyrim.

[Jeancey]

Bethesda and ZOS are pretty much interchangeable. Many of the people who worked on Skyrim also did early development on ESO (From what I have heard) in designing the story and the world. Most of the new people were involved in world generation and art, things that aren't really about the overall arch of the game. From what I have heard, the reason it wasn't just a new team in house is due to a different tax structure because ESO offers a recurring subscription which requires different organizational stuff from a company that simply sells a product.

In any case, from my conversations with the dev team at various PAX events over the years, there really isn't anything at all that was suggested by ZOS and the lore guys went "Nope, you can't use that part of the lore, that's our thing". Most of the rejections were due to lore inconsistencies (like how the Knights of the Nine would be impossible as there are only eight divines at this point).

[AngryNord]

But Knights of the Eight is a dumb faction. I mean, it's just comes off(i read the wiki page) as a wannabe Knights of the Nine but can't as Bethesda flat out refused to allow that be used thus Zenimax created their own version. If it was a generic holy order, it wouldn't really matter but it comes off as wanting to be KOTN but settling for KOTE instead because of lore.

It would have been even more stupid to have Knights of the Nine, in an era where there were still only eight divines...

[legoless]

But Knights of the Eight is a dumb faction. I mean, it's just comes off(i read the wiki page) as a wannabe Knights of the Nine but can't as Bethesda flat out refused to allow that be used thus Zenimax created their own version. If it was a generic holy order, it wouldn't really matter but it comes off as wanting to be KOTN but settling for KOTE instead because of lore.

I think you might be overestimating the importance of them based on the wiki articles. In-game they have basically zero relevance or importance. It basically is just a generic holy order. I think it's a nice throwback to KotN, and certainly more interesting than having nothing at the priory location in ESO.

[BetaB17]

If anything, it's closer to a reference or dare I say Easter egg(ya, kinda pushing the definition there) than say anything influential in lore or game. All things considered with ESO retcons, this one is all right

[The SheoDovah]

True but comes off as more wanting to be Knights of the Nine but not allowing it and a bit forced in regards to the new history of the chapter.

[Hissien]

They could have easily just made a holy knights faction for each of the respective factions which would have made the process more memorable. Each faction is made up of different groups but you could easily be:

A knight of the ancestors for the dominion

A temple enforcer for the ebonheart pact

And a holy crusader for the eight as we have currently.


Let's steer a thought towards the ingame books for a second though I know that has been the majority of this thread. I submit that these inconsistencies are not as blatant of a mistake that we give credit for but are instead an attempt to expose people to the body of lore that has been established and inspired the comp to make the game in the first place. I like to think of it as an aspiring artist attempting to copy the style of a master: it ain't pretty but it shows their love for the world. There are a lot of people that have never even read the ingame books of skyrim, oblivion and Morrowind but this gives them yet another chance to do so. Is it a good excuse? No. But it keeps me from actively ruining my enjoyment of the game by finding fault in every nook and cranny. It's the fanfiction of the Elder Scrolls series, and it's fun.

[legoless]

Let's steer a thought towards the ingame books for a second though I know that has been the majority of this thread. I submit that these inconsistencies are not as blatant of a mistake that we give credit for but are instead an attempt to expose people to the body of lore that has been established and inspired the comp to make the game in the first place. I like to think of it as an aspiring artist attempting to copy the style of a master: it ain't pretty but it shows their love for the world. There are a lot of people that have never even read the ingame books of skyrim, oblivion and Morrowind but this gives them yet another chance to do so. Is it a good excuse? No. But it keeps me from actively ruining my enjoyment of the game by finding fault in every nook and cranny.

You should see some of the strangely sloppy edits made to those books if you think their inclusion was about the sanctity of the lore. Exposing people to the wider literature is great, but there are so many books to choose from - why not those that aren't era-specific?

It's the fanfiction of the Elder Scrolls series, and it's fun.

ESO is fanfiction?? Nah.

[Saelune]

Oh, I need this as this is something on my mind...well, always, but more now. So here is my very first post on this forum complaining about it!

On the general topic of canon, I would consider ESO to be "as canon as future games let it be". I am quite curious how the next TES game will address the events of ESO. We must remember the difference between game elements and lore elements. Soul-trapping alone messes alot of lore up.

Anyways, on to a more specific bit. I dont know if anyone else brought it up, but well..

How many of you actually read the Racial Style books? It was quite an interesting read as it details the adventures of someone in the employ of Savirien-Chorak. They go on about the races and their cultures and even feature Divayth-Fyr, who was alive then too. It ends up with Divayth entering Oblivion and the writer chasing after them. Their servant then continues on detailing Ancient Elf, Barbaric, Primal, and Daedric.

But at the end they realize they are in psychic communication with the original writer, and make a comment that they should now chronicle their master's travels through the "doors of Oblivion" and it hit me to check the book "Doors of Oblivion" and low and behold, both are written by Seif-ij Hidja. I was super excited...until the version that debuted in TESIV mentioned Jagar Tharn, clearly placing it post Arena. *sigh*

Now, it heavily implies Seif is Argonian, and I dont think Argonians live 600+ years, but who knows? But even without life expectancy, the stories conflict chronologically.

But then I read the ESO version of Doors of Oblivion and it removes references to Jagar Tharn...

(I think the writer was one of the few who cared about the lore, got carried away, then realized they made a plot hole and tried to be like "uhhh, no I didnt <.<" but who knows?)

Also Id rather they just admit they messed up than try to BS some sort of "Dragon Break" time paradox explanation.

[Br3admax]

Some of the books in ESO are from the future because of the whamminess of time and HM.

As for ESO being canon, that's a wasted effort. For one, this takes place in a time no one knows anything about, really, before Septim and Emperor Zero started their conquests. Secondly, ES doesn't have a canon. This place exists mainly to catalogue information for people to easily access online, not because Bethesda has ever, or would ever set a certain string of events that needed to happen. Any explanation that you want that fits into the established mechanics of the setting, or any events for that matter, are as valid as any.


The idea of ESO being "fanfiction" doesn't really take away from its validity.

[legoless]

Some of the books in ESO are from the future because of the whamminess of time and HM.

The Hermaeus Mora explanation works for most of the books in ESO, but the Racial Motifs story appears to be a straight up retcon. Seems like those characters have been brought back to the Second Era to fit the narrative.

[Cursegrind]

TES is a high magic setting in the classic sense. Time travel is not a rare phenomenon. It's relatively easy to do with magic. The problem is that when you time travel, you actually end up in an alternate reality (Think Trunks DBZ). Now, a little known fact is that the reason all Dovah are male is because female dragons don't live in the material world. They live in the time stream, and they are more powerful than most of their male counterparts. These dragons are called Jills, and they isolate and then consume time travelers Langoleer style. That said, these dragons are not omnipotent Gods. A God or even a wizard of sufficient power can safely tell them to [&@%!] right off as he reorganizes history to his advantage, creating a timeline that, while new, is more fitting to that individuals desires. Talos actually did this, and as a result Arena and Skyrim take place in different timelines.

[Synthoras]

Secondly, ES doesn't have a canon

It does and there is obviously an official version of the lore that Bethesda follows, the idea that there is no canon because MK doesn't want it is childish.