Debating on who to align with as a Bosmer PC

[Br3admax]

The LDB is essentially a god at this point, so I very much doubt they will ever have a hand in history again, because it removes pretty much every sense of uncertainty there is.

[Leckan]

Ysgramor had Tongues and mages.

They had Tongues and mages.

They aren't really outnumbered. Nords breed much faster than elves.

True enough. Although, I could use the Redguards as an example too; most of them view magic as cowardly, but they continued the fight with the Dominion after the Empire agreed to the White-Gold Concordat and forced the Dominion out.

They are outnumbered though. It isn't Nords vs. Altmer, it's Nords vs. Altmer AND Bosmer AND Khajiit. There's a reason the Aldmeri Dominion were able to challenge the Empire, and it wasn't because they have a magic advantage because Imperials, Bretons, and Dunmer do use magic.

Besides, shields and armor can protect against fireballs and such even without enchantments, and they can be dodged too. At the end of the day, mages are still squishy wizards.

I also feel like it may be getting overlooked that not all Altmer use magic; many of them are still just soldiers or proletariats.

Br3admax is right, the Nords' distrust of magic is a recent occurrence. The god Tsun says it best: "The Nords may have forgotten their forefathers' respect for the Clever Craft, but your comrades throng this hall. Here in Shor's house we honor it still."

Indeed. Although, modern Nords still seem to generally accept Restoration and Enchantments. And while most modern Nords have a problem with magic, there are still Nordic practitioners.

[Lavellan]

Hey guys, just wanted to mention again that this is more about a bosmer and the interactions in the civil war, not just a Stormcloaks vs. Empire thread - which is a topic in of itself that's been debated to death. I'd be fine with discussion of other races and which side they might be opt for/justifications of either side that don't necessarily have clear lean from their backstory (ex: Breton, Orc) that could maybe allow justification for either side while not necessarily having to be a nord, but I really would prefer for this thread to have a specific aim of discussion.

[Tingz0r]

I agree. Getting back to your character specifically, I think she might be a little sympathetic toward the Nords. She was driven out of her home, her loved ones slaughtered, and now Skyrim finds itself in a similar predicament. Being offered companionship for the first time in a long while after she escaped with Ralof must have made her think. Although she's mostly just trying to look after herself, she can't deny the fact that there's benefits to having friends. Once she approaches Ulfric in the Palace of the Kings and hears his reasons for fighting, there will be no doubt that she's making the right decision. If she's going to pick a side, it's going to be with those who understand her struggles and accept her despite being an elf. She can see that the only people the Stormcloaks truly look down on are those who neglect their duty to fight for their land, friends, and family. If Ralof's actions are any indication, her brothers and sisters in arms will be more than willing to call her friend.

Am I wrong?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Don't forget that the answer a non-Nord usually gives Galmar for joining the Stormcloaks is "Skyrim is my home, too." This also applies to Wood Elves, as I've personally tested.

While you're free to ignore this game element and RP your character however you want, "Skyrim is my home" is a good starting point for character motivation regardless of other aspects. This is where your character lives now. They're tired of running away. They want to take a stand for their home. That's pretty universal stuff that could apply to a number of different characters.

[Br3admax]

What Nords consider their home and how they want it to be, probably isn't the same for a Bosmer from Cyrodiil. Before you even get to the Palace of Kings, every Nord from Helgen to Windhelm is throwing slurs, you walk through the gate, and they're throwing slurs, and when you get close to Ulfric, Galmar is insulting elves. There's really no motivation I can see for a Bosmer NPC helping the Stormcloaks. Companionship can come from either side, both sides restore Skyrim. It comes down to do you want what the Stormcloaks want, and I don't think any rational elf should say yes.

[Tingz0r]

Before you even get to the Palace of Kings, every Nord from Helgen to Windhelm is throwing slurs, you walk through the gate, and they're throwing slurs, and when you get close to Ulfric, Galmar is insulting elves.

1. False. 2. A local dunmer, being harassed by two miscreants, not Stormcloak soldiers. 3. Galmar is talking about the Thalmor. Does he lay an insult on any specific elf, like the player, for instance? No.

There's really no motivation I can see for a Bosmer NPC helping the Stormcloaks.

NPCs are different. There's no bosmer NPCs helping the Imperials, either.

Companionship can come from either side, both sides restore Skyrim. It comes down to do you want what the Stormcloaks want, and I don't think any rational elf should say yes.

In terms of her story so far, she's only had the Imperials try to kill her while the Stormcloaks helped her escape, despite being an elf, might I add. If we're talking rational decisions, it simply doesn't make sense to turn around and serve the Empire's Thalmor-compliant agenda. IF she chooses a side, she already has a friend in the Stormcloaks. A friend that offered companionship from the moment she woke up on the cart bound for Helgen.

[noobishlord]

NPCs are different. There's no bosmer NPCs helping the Imperials, either.

...Come to think of it, outside of Nords/Imperials/Bretons (way too hard to tell which is which at a glance,) the great cosmopolitan Empire has a pretty "exclusive" looking army. I don't recall even seeing Orcs.

[LugkAgumbuk]

NPCs are different. There's no bosmer NPCs helping the Imperials, either.

...Come to think of it, outside of Nords/Imperials/Bretons (way too hard to tell which is which at a glance,) the great cosmopolitan Empire has a pretty "exclusive" looking army. I don't recall even seeing Orcs.

True, only former Orcs saying they served with the legion

[legoless]

I actually sided with the Stormcloaks as a female Bosmer once. Seriously didn't feel right. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

...Come to think of it, outside of Nords/Imperials/Bretons (way too hard to tell which is which at a glance,) the great cosmopolitan Empire has a pretty "exclusive" looking army. I don't recall even seeing Orcs.

True, only former Orcs saying they served with the legion

That's just a game mechanic. Orcs have actually make up a huge percentage of the legions historically. It's also worth remembering that the Fourth Era empire basically is just Nords/Imperials/Bretons. Every other province left.

[Br3admax]

1. False. 2. A local dunmer, being harassed by two miscreants, not Stormcloak soldiers. 3. Galmar is talking about the Thalmor. Does he lay an insult on any specific elf, like the player, for instance? No.

It's actually not false. It's called an exaggeration, but not much of one, because every Stormcloak aligned guard has dialogue that's clearly supposed to be hostile towards elves as opposed to the Imperial guard dialogue. Not to mention one of those "miscreants," was/is very much a Stormcloak. Galmar flat out says "elves" and drew literally no distinction. I mean it's fun to make excuses for people, but I'm not going to pretend that's not blatant hate. But since we're talking about the player character, I assume the Stormcloaks really don't bar Khajiit and Argonians from cities, because the player is allowed to walk right into Windhelm.

NPCs are different. There's no bosmer NPCs helping the Imperials, either.

I meant PC. But in general, I'm talking about reasons to help the Stormcloaks, not seeing them help the Stormcloaks.

In terms of her story so far, she's only had the Imperials try to kill her while the Stormcloaks helped her escape, despite being an elf, might I add.

So one captain condemns the entire Empire, but dozens of hostile Nords doesn't condemn the Stormcloaks, because the player ran away with one from a dragon?

If we're talking rational decisions, it simply doesn't make sense to turn around and serve the Empire's Thalmor-compliant agenda. IF she chooses a side, she already has a friend in the Stormcloaks. A friend that offered companionship from the moment she woke up on the cart bound for Helgen.

Well, I'm sure that one friend will help all the rest of the elves that live in Skyrim. And the Empire thinking of the bigger picture obviously isn't a point against the Empire. Not that most of the Thalmor policies even came into actual effect before Ulfric brought attention to them. He's the reason why Thalmor are everywhere in Skyrim.

[Dark Spark]

Companionship can come from either side, both sides restore Skyrim. It comes down to do you want what the Stormcloaks want, and I don't think any rational elf should say yes.

In terms of her story so far, she's only had the Imperials try to kill her while the Stormcloaks helped her escape, despite being an elf, might I add. If we're talking rational decisions, it simply doesn't make sense to turn around and serve the Empire's Thalmor-compliant agenda. IF she chooses a side, she already has a friend in the Stormcloaks. A friend that offered companionship from the moment she woke up on the cart bound for Helgen.

There are times, in both the realms of fiction and reality, where friendship is the one thing pulling a person along the path. So I can see the idea of a character going along primarily for the sake of Ralof. Now, whether that character stays comfortable as time goes by and/or tries to hold onto that relationship (maybe try to sway Ralof into considering Ulfric isn't in it for Skyrim's sake) makes for an interesting story. But that story only happens, mind you, because of the friendship.

Roleplaying and storytelling are about making hard choices, and figuring out how to deal with them if you begin to think you made a mistake.

[legoless]

There are times, in both the realms of fiction and reality, where friendship is the one thing pulling a person along the path. So I can see the idea of a character going along primarily for the sake of Ralof. Now, whether that character stays comfortable as time goes by and/or tries to hold onto that relationship (maybe try to sway Ralof into considering Ulfric isn't in it for Skyrim's sake) makes for an interesting story. But that story only happens, mind you, because of the friendship.

Roleplaying and storytelling are about making hard choices, and figuring out how to deal with them if you begin to think you made a mistake.

If you want to go down this path, there's a chance later on to give a certain crown to the Legion and switch sides.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

To be honest, I almost always do the bait and switch thing when I replay Skyrim. I intend on doing that with my Orc Illusionist for the Remaster. Pose as an Imperial because of course an Orc would join the Imperials, then turn the Crown in to Galmar.

[noobishlord]

I actually sided with the Stormcloaks as a female Bosmer once. Seriously didn't feel right. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

...Come to think of it, outside of Nords/Imperials/Bretons (way too hard to tell which is which at a glance,) the great cosmopolitan Empire has a pretty "exclusive" looking army. I don't recall even seeing Orcs.

True, only former Orcs saying they served with the legion

That's just a game mechanic. Orcs have actually make up a huge percentage of the legions historically. It's also worth remembering that the Fourth Era empire basically is just Nords/Imperials/Bretons. Every other province left.

I thought Morrowind didn't leave, it was just sort of left to its own devices. It's still TECHNICALLY part of the Empire, but mostly because no one's explicitly said they're being let go or leaving.

I could have just missed seeing that note though. At least they wouldn't have to worry about the Dunmer joining the Aldmeri Dominion. Neither seems to want anything to do with one-another.

[Damon]

I thought Morrowind didn't leave, it was just sort of left to its own devices. It's still TECHNICALLY part of the Empire, but mostly because no one's explicitly said they're being let go or leaving.

I could have just missed seeing that note though. At least they wouldn't have to worry about the Dunmer joining the Aldmeri Dominion. Neither seems to want anything to do with one-another.

Whether or not the Dunmer are still loyal, how much of Morrowind is even left in Dunmeri control anyway? The Red Year screwed Vvardenfell, and presumably little, if anything, is left inhabited there, the Argonians invaded from the south to capitalise on the weakness of the Dunmer and conquered large chunks of land, with raiders going so far as to sack Mournhold before they were repelled. Hlaalu was cut out of the council because they were loyal to the Imperials who didn't help them, and Sandas took their place.

With the only historically pro-Empire faction in the province stripped of any real power and without any help from the Empire during their time of need, the remaining Houses of Morrowind presumably have no need for the Empire.

And, I'm inclined to think that they don't recognise Morrowind as part of the Empire, when you consider the events of the 4th Era, and Titus I stating that the province has been a thorn in his side and dismissing Umbriel's threat to Black Marsh and Morrowind in The Infernal City, when enquired about the fate of the Dunmer and Argonians as the city advances towards the Scathing Bay.

What's left is definitely a de facto independent nation, even if the Empire considers it part of its territory, though short of any evidence to suggest that, it's definitely not, near as I can tell.

[noobishlord]

The Infernal City is a real-world book, isn't it? That may be why I missed that, I haven't actually read any of the Elder Scrolls books.

[Damon]

The Infernal City is a real-world book, isn't it? That may be why I missed that, I haven't actually read any of the Elder Scrolls books.

Yes, TIC is the first of those two Greg Keyes books set in the 4th Era. I haven't read the second, but The Infernal City is passable enough to be worth a read or two. It's only average in my opinion.

[legoless]

I thought Morrowind didn't leave, it was just sort of left to its own devices. It's still TECHNICALLY part of the Empire, but mostly because no one's explicitly said they're being let go or leaving.

Morrowind is not a part of the Empire in the Fourth Era and has no imperial king. That's why House Hlaalu is no longer a Great House.

[Br3admax]

There has been no confirmation one way or the other about Morrowind's status in the Empire. I very much doubt the Empire let Skyrim giveaway Solstheim while it was still rich in ebony, however, so I lean that it's still a part of the Empire, if not controlled in any way.

[legoless]

There has been no confirmation one way or the other about Morrowind's status in the Empire. I very much doubt the Empire let Skyrim giveaway Solstheim while it was still rich in ebony, however, so I lean that it's still a part of the Empire, if not controlled in any way.

It is confirmed, I think one of the NPCs in Dragonborn says as much. And the Empire probably didn't have a say in the High King giving Solstheim away, considering the Nords forcibly took the island off the Imperials during Oblivion after the "money ran out" at Raven Rock. The EEC pulled out of Raven Rock after the lower mines broke into the nearby barrow. To everyone's knowledge all the ebony was gone - that's the whole point of the LDB's great discovery in 4E201.

[Leckan]

I actually sided with the Stormcloaks as a female Bosmer once. Seriously didn't feel right. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

...Come to think of it, outside of Nords/Imperials/Bretons (way too hard to tell which is which at a glance,) the great cosmopolitan Empire has a pretty "exclusive" looking army. I don't recall even seeing Orcs.

True, only former Orcs saying they served with the legion

That's just a game mechanic. Orcs have actually make up a huge percentage of the legions historically. It's also worth remembering that the Fourth Era empire basically is just Nords/Imperials/Bretons. Every other province left.

Unfortunately, the Imperial soldiers just get the Stormtrooper treatment. There's more diversity with bandits, sadly.

I thought Morrowind didn't leave, it was just sort of left to its own devices. It's still TECHNICALLY part of the Empire, but mostly because no one's explicitly said they're being let go or leaving.

Morrowind is not a part of the Empire in the Fourth Era and has no imperial king. That's why House Hlaalu is no longer a Great House.

Bad move on the Emperor's part for releasing Morrowind. Then again, maybe he viewed it as excising a tumor? With as badly Morrowind had been devastated, it might take too much money and effort to help them. Not that it mattered much, since many Dunmer fled inwards to Skyrim and Cyrodiil. So really, lots of Dunmer are still very much a part of the Empire, even if Morrowind isn't.

Which Emperor released Morrowind from the Empire?

[Br3admax]

There has been no confirmation one way or the other about Morrowind's status in the Empire. I very much doubt the Empire let Skyrim giveaway Solstheim while it was still rich in ebony, however, so I lean that it's still a part of the Empire, if not controlled in any way.

It is confirmed, I think one of the NPCs in Dragonborn says as much. And the Empire probably didn't have a say in the High King giving Solstheim away, considering the Nords forcibly took the island off the Imperials during Oblivion after the "money ran out" at Raven Rock. The EEC pulled out of Raven Rock after the lower mines broke into the nearby barrow. To everyone's knowledge all the ebony was gone - that's the whole point of the LDB's great discovery in 4E201.

No, it's not. The second councilor says the Empire "released its grasp," as in pull out its forces. The Empire definitely has a say in removing Imperial territory, as even though that Oblivion dialogue says there are rumors of this, the Imperials still controlled Raven Rock and Frostmoth until the Red Year, and for some time after that. Raven Rock didn't run dry until a few decades ago. Not sure what you're even talking about. It's not like this was all centuries ago.

[Damon]

Which Emperor released Morrowind from the Empire?

The province probably became its own independent nation within the first 20 years of the 4th Era, I'd reckon. So, either during Ocato's time as Potentate before his assassination, or it was properly on its own during the seven year interregnum following his assassination, which weakened Imperial control over all of the provinces in general.

Maybe it's possible during the 20 years between Titus I's coronation and the events of the Keyes novels that Titus I, either by deliberate acts or by omission of doing anything, allowed Morrowind to leave during his reign, but I can find no conclusive proof either way. Most other provinces have timelines clarifying when they left, what happened to them, etc, but Morrowind's is very vague. The province could have left at any time between 4E5 and 4E40, and we wouldn't know the specific time.

Or, perhaps the shell of the province is considered an integral part of the Empire still as far as government functions go, and Titus I just doesn't hold much mind to it.

According to the book, The Great War, found in-game, "When Titus Mede II ascended the throne in 4E 168, he inherited a weakened empire. The glory days of the Septims were a distant memory. Valenwood and Elsweyr were gone, ceded to the Thalmor enemy. Black Marsh had been lost to Imperial rule since the aftermath of the Oblivion Crisis. Morrowind had never recovered fully from the eruption of Mount Vvardenfell. Hammerfell was plagued by infighting between Crowns and Forebears. Only High Rock, Cyrodiil and Skyrim remained prosperous and peaceful."

That set of sentences carries, in my mind, the implication that while the province was devastated, some people within the Empire consider Morrowind a part of the Empire still, albeit not a prosperous part like the human-held High Rock, Cyrodiil, and Skyrim.

There's evidence to suggest that the province is part of the Empire, and there's enough to create an inference that it's gone its own way and has formally been released by the Empire.

I think that it's an independent nation, whether de facto or de jure, though it seems like it can still be up for debate.

[legoless]

No, it's not. The second councilor says the Empire "released its grasp," as in pull out its forces. The Empire definitely has a say in removing Imperial territory, as even though that Oblivion dialogue says there are rumors of this, the Imperials still controlled Raven Rock and Frostmoth until the Red Year, and for some time after that. Raven Rock didn't run dry until a few decades ago. Not sure what you're even talking about. It's not like this was all centuries ago.

Citation pls. The Empire completely ignored Frostmoth and allowed the Redoran to take control, and when we visit the island in 201 it is not Imperial territory.

The Nords obviously succeeded in their Third Era campaign considering it was part of Skyrim during the Red Year, not an Imperial colony like in Bloodmoon.

The mine was officially closed in 4E 181, but the colony had been in decline for hundreds of years at that stage. It had been entirely unprofitable since the early days. The sealing of the lower sections happened in 4E 10, which literally was centuries ago.