Non-Altmer in Alinor

[ddc]

Given the Thalmor's goal of eradicating all humans, I imagine life for the ones who were born in Alinor is pretty grim. Is there any new lore that addresses the subject?

What about the Khajiit? Do they have an elevated status in Alinor due to the alliance between their nations?

If there isn't any official canon covering these things, they're at least interesting to think about.

[Rezalon]

ESO's Thalmor aren't as kill-happy as Skyrim's. These Thalmor believe that the other races are "too young" to rule so they believe that the "older races", such as the Altmer and Bosmer, should rule Tamriel.

[ddc]

I'm not familiar with Elder Scrolls Online. Does it take place before or after the events of Skyrim?

[Rezalon]

Before. Around 700 years before Skyrim, in 2E 582 (or 2E 583, because ZeniMax can't count).

[ddc]

Ah, I see. That's an interesting change in attitude between then and now. I imagine humans living in Alinor during the events of Skyrim get accused of Talos worship a lot, and maybe coerced into becoming spies for the Thalmor overseas.

[legoless]

Before Summerset was conquered by Tiber Septim and the Numidium, no humans were allowed in the Isles. During the time of ESO a lot of Altmer are disgusted at even Bosmer and Khajiit being allowed to visit. Under the Fourth Era Aldmeri Dominion I really doubt there are any human populations on Alinor.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Besides a few special diplomats now and then, no Humans ever sat foot on Alinor.

Also, we shouldn't automatically assume the Thalmor necessarily want to commit total genocide against all Humans. It hasn't been stated in-game yet, and the document this idea references is called "What appears to be Aldmeri commentary on Talos." It doesn't mention how many Altmer or which Altmer. Could be a shadow cabal, like the Veiled Heritance, rather than the official Aldmeri government.

[legoless]

Besides a few special diplomats now and then, no Humans ever sat foot on Alinor.

I'm pretty sure the Legion were stationed there under the Septims, no? My Imperial ESO character might have something to say about that as well, and don't forget the Ebonheart Pact invasion of Auridon. As for permanent residents, I can think of at least one Redguard from the Fighters Guild off the top of my head.

[SarthesArai]

Maybe we should clear up if we're speaking about Alinor, Alinor or Alinor, and what time period we are looking at.

[legoless]

Maybe we should clear up if we're speaking about Alinor, Alinor or Alinor, and what time period we are looking at.

I assume OP means Alinor the province, 4E 201. So, the first link.

[ddc]

I'm talking about the Alinor formerly known as the Summerset Isles, during the events of Skyrim.

[all_freed]

I think most of the non altmer are either dead or slaves. The rest is escaped to nearby provinces

Also maybe the blades that were hunted down were non altmer

[SarthesArai]

The 4th-era thalmor have no quarrels hunting down other fellow altmer as well:

Back in 42 I was stationed in Hammerfell, on leave in Sentinel, trying to track down some refugee relatives who had fled persecution in Alinor. Suddenly an explosion of magic in the refugee quarter. Thalmor mages were attacking the Altmer dissidents who were resisting with magic of their own. I ran to the scene with other Legionaries who where stationed there, but the entire quarter was a smoking ruin by the time we arrived. Everyone was dead. Wholesale slaughter. The Dominion, not content with killing dissidents at home, came to Hammerfell to finish the job.

[The SheoDovah]

Apart from Diplomats from their allies, i can't the Aldmeri Dominion allowing non-Altmer onto the island out of a sense of "We're are the superior race" and wanting to be elitest. Sure, the ESO version of the Dominion may not be like that but the 4th Era version got tenure at FU and pretty much lord it over everyone. They are vicous towards humans and like to remind everyone that Talos is not their god. Along with being ruthless in their objectives and they know that they are merely tolerated in the Empire. Hell, Skyrim would kick them out if they could and a [&@%!] off Dragonborn happens to reside there if they keep attacking him/her.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Besides a few special diplomats now and then, no Humans ever sat foot on Alinor.

I'm pretty sure the Legion were stationed there under the Septims, no? My Imperial ESO character might have something to say about that as well, and don't forget the Ebonheart Pact invasion of Auridon. As for permanent residents, I can think of at least one Redguard from the Fighters Guild off the top of my head.

Not that Alinor. I'm talking about what the current Dominion calls Alinor. THEIR Alinor.

[Leckan]

ESO's Thalmor aren't as kill-happy as Skyrim's. These Thalmor believe that the other races are "too young" to rule so they believe that the "older races", such as the Altmer and Bosmer, should rule Tamriel.

Which doesn't make sense. All the races and animals appeared at the same time, when Y'ffre made all the spirits trapped on Mundus to take a permanent form, since before Y'ffre's intervention they kept changing.

Now if the Thalmor were referring to how men and beasts live only about half as long as the mer, Ayrenn was only 28 when she assumed the crown, which is still considered young by even human standards and makes her a hypocrite.

Thalmor just make excuses and conceive lies as to why mer, specifically Altmer, are superior. They want to rule and subjugate all the other races. Ayrenn was admittingly more humble than many of her peers, yet the current Thalmor in the 4th era are just practicing the logical extremes of that old ideology.

[legoless]

Which doesn't make sense. All the races and animals appeared at the same time, when Y'ffre made all the spirits trapped on Mundus to take a permanent form, since before Y'ffre's intervention they kept changing.

Sounds like a Bosmer spinner has been feeding you some anti-Dominion propaganda, friend. That creation story only holds water within the Valenwood (and some of the wild parts of High Rock).

The Altmer, as the direct descendants of the Aldmer, see their elven cousins and the races of men as newcomers to the world. Maybe the beast races are contemporary, but it was the Aldmer who taught them how to speak. Almost all Tamrielic civilisation stems from Aldmeri culture; there's a reason Ashlanders call the Imperial dialect "old elf". So Ayrenn's Dominion is correct to view the other races as young. Ayrenn's Dominion doesn't want to tear down their ancestor's Towers and unmake the world, they want to stop foolish Nibeneans from opening any more portals to Oblivion above White-Gold.

[Leckan]

Which doesn't make sense. All the races and animals appeared at the same time, when Y'ffre made all the spirits trapped on Mundus to take a permanent form, since before Y'ffre's intervention they kept changing.

Sounds like a Bosmer spinner has been feeding you some anti-Dominion propaganda, friend. That creation story only holds water within the Valenwood (and some of the wild parts of High Rock).

The Altmer, as the direct descendants of the Aldmer, see their elven cousins and the races of men as newcomers to the world. Maybe the beast races are contemporary, but it was the Aldmer who taught them how to speak. Almost all Tamrielic civilisation stems from Aldmeri culture; there's a reason Ashlanders call the Imperial dialect "old elf". So Ayrenn's Dominion is correct to view the other races as young. Ayrenn's Dominion doesn't want to tear down their ancestor's Towers and unmake the world, they want to stop foolish Nibeneans from opening any more portals to Oblivion above White-Gold.

All the creatures on Mundus were lesser spirits that were trapped during creation, no? There are no "new" races, all the spirits get recycled in Aetherius and return to Mundus, but are they only reincarnated as one race or can they be reincarnated as another race?

The Aldmer, Nedes, Dwemer, etc. all seem to exist since the beginning, all existing relatively segregated from each other until they all migrated to Tamriel where multiple races already lived.

They all had their own cultures and language, but the Aldmer and their descendants had a habit of enslaving non-Elves and practicing eugenics with some of their slaves to create Imperials, and cross-breeding with other slaves to create Bretons. An exception would be the Nedes that came over with Ysgrammor, who adopted the Falmers' written language.

Like I said, Ayrenn wasn't nearly as bad as her other Altmer colleagues, but the modern Thalmor are taking old Altmer beliefs to logical extremes.

[legoless]

There are many different creation myths. Even if you subscribe to the soul recycling, that just means each spirit is equal in age. You can still have younger races and civilisations. For example, Altmer society is much older than modern Imperial culture.

[Leckan]

There are many different creation myths. Even if you subscribe to the soul recycling, that just means each spirit is equal in age. You can still have younger races and civilisations. For example, Altmer society is much older than modern Imperial culture.

So there are multiple creation myths, what makes to go with the Altmer beliefs as factual?

The Altmer believe they are the descendents of the original spirits, but everything on Mundus are the descendants of the spirits that were trapped.

Like I addressed, all the races existed simultaneously but separate. An argument could be made that the Altmer society was more advanced, but races like the Nedes and Ra'Gada had language, arts, craftsmanship, stonework, metalwork, seafaring, magic, etc.
It's hard to say how advanced the forefathers of the Imperials were, but they were stripped of their culture and forced into slavery by the Elves, they then adopted the Elven culture because that was all they knew for generations, until the fall of their Elven masters which freed the Imperials to make their own culture. And by the time of Ayrenn, the Imperial culture had been intertwined with Tsaesci blood and culture too.

Now, that said, what makes other modern races "too young" when they are just as old and have learned everything that the Altmer know?

[legoless]

The age of Altmer civilisation isn't an origin myth, it's an issue of history. You're entirely correct that Nedic and Yokudan civilisations may be contemporary, but the Imperials, Nords and Bretons all arose *after* High Elven culture was in full swing. This makes them younger historically.

You can argue that they've now "learned" how to be just as advanced as the Altmer, and that may be true, but from Ayrenn's point of view all she see is a failed empire of monkeys that are in the process of pulling the whole world into Coldharbour. The Altmer despise Daedra trafficking, and the silly humans are causing horrific metal portals to destroy the pristine garden landscapes of their homeland. No wonder they want to restore High Elven rule of the Heartlands.

That said, the Dominion's goals are probably the worst of the three Alliances.

[Leckan]

The age of Altmer civilisation isn't an origin myth, it's an issue of history. You're entirely correct that Nedic and Yokudan civilisations may be contemporary, but the Imperials, Nords and Bretons all arose *after* High Elven culture was in full swing. This makes them younger historically.

You can argue that they've now "learned" how to be just as advanced as the Altmer, and that may be true, but from Ayrenn's point of view all she see is a failed empire of monkeys that are in the process of pulling the whole world into Coldharbour. The Altmer despise Daedra trafficking, and the silly humans are causing horrific metal portals to destroy the pristine garden landscapes of their homeland. No wonder they want to restore High Elven rule of the Heartlands.

That said, the Dominion's goals are probably the worst of the three Alliances.

The Nords are the descendents of the Nedes though, possibly interbred with the now-extinct human natives. Hell, the Altmer could be considered a young race by their own logic, since they are not the Aldmer.

Arose after Elven tyranny? But i digress; it may be the view of the Altmer that the other races have younger civilizations, but they are all still on the same level as the Altmer. Not even the Bretons get any love, who have the same elven heritage as Ayrenn, and Emeric is older than her.

There are some Altmer that conspire with Daedra, just as there are some humans. Even the reason for the Altmer to engage in war, the threat of Daedra, is because of the machinations of an Altmer.

Well we both agree the Dominion's reasons were wrong.

[legoless]

The Nords are the descendents of the Nedes though, possibly interbred with the now-extinct human natives.

The Nedic origins thing remains unclear ('Nede' is an unspecific term used to refer to both natives and Atmorans), but Nedic civilisation was something much different than what we find in modern Skyrim.

There are some Altmer that conspire with Daedra, just as there are some humans.

Very, very few. Imperial culture positively embraces Daedra trafficking and worship compared to the Altmer. This dude in Auridon gets a death sentence for a summoning spell going awry. In Cyrodiil, something like that earns you a slap on the wrist.

[Leckan]

The Nords are the descendents of the Nedes though, possibly interbred with the now-extinct human natives.

The Nedic origins thing remains unclear ('Nede' is an unspecific term used to refer to both natives and Atmorans), but Nedic civilisation was something much different than what we find in modern Skyrim.

There are some Altmer that conspire with Daedra, just as there are some humans.

Very, very few. Imperial culture positively embraces Daedra trafficking and worship compared to the Altmer. This dude in Auridon gets a death sentence for a summoning spell going awry. In Cyrodiil, something like that earns you a slap on the wrist.

Indeed.

Both of your examples seem to be circumstantial, as the Breton had a mishap with a Scamp and his guild (not the law) gave him a slap on the wrist. Your other example with the Altmer, though there is little information, seemed to be responsible for an entire town turning to stone. I notable difference.

Do you know of any other information that more details the views of Altmer compared to that of, in this instance, Imperials? I do know that affiliating with Daeda is illegal in both areas, leading to secret Daedric cults, though the Empire does turn a blind eye to Morrowind in return for their loyalty to the Empire.

A follow-up question too, are Atronochs specifically considered to be Daedroth or are they a grey area that Altmer are fine with? It would be strange to me that a race with an affinity for the mystic arts would not use a school of magic at all, since I know they shun necromancy.

Lastly, in relation to what you said in another post:

The Altmer despise Daedra trafficking, and the silly humans are causing horrific metal portals to destroy the pristine garden landscapes of their homeland. No wonder they want to restore High Elven rule of the Heartlands.

I overlooked the last part of this paragraph earlier. I'm surprised that the Altmer had such a tolerance for the Ayleids whom worshiped the Daedric Princes en masse and even horrifically sacrificed their human slaves to them.

[legoless]

Not all the Ayleids were Daedraphiles, and the early Aldmer colonisers who settled the Eight Islands would have been ancestor/Aedra worshippers just like the modern Altmer. I imagine Altmeri attitude towards Late Ayleid civilisation would be one of contempt for their heretical Daedra worship, just as they view the Velothi and modern Dunmer.

Atronachs are Daedra, but I don't think there's much on how native Altmer feel about them.

Daedra worship itself isn't illegal in Cyrodiil or Morrowind, but most worshippers tend to congregate in secret to avoid persecution and to conduct rituals which probably are illegal. And like you said, the law didn't intervene at all when Erthor caused a Daedric summoning incident in the middle of a city. The Imperial Mages Guild has totally normalised the practice and made it mainstream through the school of Conjuration. I doubt many Altmer traditionalists would allow that to happen on Summerset. Of course, Mages Guild members (and sorc characters) get away with walking around Altmeri towns with Daedric familiars in ESO, so maybe it's more a cultural stigma against Daedra than an outright crime.

Can't think of any other major differences with the Altmer. To relate it back to the OP a little, the Altmer have a fondness for goblins. Not sure if the Fourth Era Thalmor would be alright with sharing their island with the creatures, but in ESO both the Dominion and the Heritance are willing to actually speak with them, which is a hell of a lot better than the treatment they get anywhere on the mainland. So I guess you could consider them a non-Altmer race in Alinor, even if they're a slave race. I think goblins are also the original natives of the isles, pre-Torinaan.