Talos, CHIM, and Apotheosis

[Ulysses]

I'm a little fuzzy with this part of Talos' history. I know he achieved CHIM, and retconned his own history and the cyrodil landscape. When he died he became a god - how did this happen? (do we know?)

Is it related to the CHIM, or maybe have something to do with the underking and zurin?

[Leckan]

Did he retcon his own history? I know the Tribunal did after they attained godhood.

Anyway, I'm a little iffy on what you are asking.

[Ulysses]

Did he retcon his own history? I know the Tribunal did after they attained godhood.

Anyway, I'm a little iffy on what you are asking.

I always assumed he retconned hjalti, wulfharth and zurin into one person - but perhaps that isn't fully correct.

My question is how did tiber septim become one of the divines? CHIM gives you godlike powers, but doesn't make you one of the divines. Is it based on worship, combined with CHIM?

[Leckan]

Did he retcon his own history? I know the Tribunal did after they attained godhood.

Anyway, I'm a little iffy on what you are asking.

I always assumed he retconned hjalti, wulfharth and zurin into one person - but perhaps that isn't fully correct.

My question is how did tiber septim become one of the divines? CHIM gives you godlike powers, but doesn't make you one of the divines. Is it based on worship, combined with CHIM?

I think their souls just all fused together somehow after they all died to become Talos, one possibility is that all of their souls were in the mantella which powered the Numidium. Everything about Tiber Septim is shrouded in mystery, there are a bunch of different stories about him; where he was born, how he rose to power, if he was a Dragonborn or if it was Wulfharth helping him, if he betrayed Zurin or Wulfharth or both, or if he was a good guy or a bad guy. There's just no question that he's divine now though despite what those hypocrites the Thalmor say.

That is a good question. I may have to do some reading.

[all_freed]

no one knows for sure exactly how talso became dvine. most of the mortals can't agree on how it happened or if it even happened (i think he probably is a god or at least has divine-like powers now because of the events in the games). i don't think it will ever bee known for certain

[Ulysses]

I've done some digging and it found out that Talos was "blessed by akatosh" at Sancre Tor, potentially after his victory. Read on Jauffre's page, might have known this sooner if I had ever finished Oblivion.

The dialogue of Oblivion Mobile (wtf, didn't know that was a thing) implies Tiber Septim was killed at the battle of Sancre Tor, the page on Sancre Tor uses that reference but states a battle of Sancre Tor. It would be pretty hard for Tiber to have died at the famous battle, given his listed death is 3E 38 and the famous battle is 2E 852, a full 82 years apart.

So there is a potential second battle of Sancre Tor with a very old Tiber Septim, who is killed and then blessed by Akatosh. This seems not likely. The other possibility is Tiber Septim was blessed by Akatosh (and this had unknown contribution to this apotheosis) at the first battle, and the reference in Oblivion Mobile is a mistake. Seems more likely. Still could be a second battle where he died and there is just no other references to it.

[MetaCthulhu]

I'm pretty sure OBmobile changes quite a few things from actual Oblivion and isn't considered entirely official lore-wise.

[Ulysses]

I'm pretty sure OBmobile changes quite a few things from actual Oblivion and isn't considered entirely official lore-wise.

Should probably be noted in the Sancre Tor page then no?

[MetaCthulhu]

My mistake; I misspoke. Here's a quote from one of the wiki admins:

Oblivion Mobile probably isn't canon at all due to its simplified and contradictory retelling of Oblivion's storyline, but the wiki treats it as such regardless.

So basically "call it how ya see it" I guess .

[Ulysses]

The mythical Second Battle of Sancre Tor lives on.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Unless the lore presented in OBMobile is flatly contradicted by some other lore, I see no reason to remove it from the article. It's simply another competing belief about Tiber Septim. It shouldn't be treated as less valid than all the others, since we're far from a consensus.

[MetaCthulhu]

Alright, this is what I've figured out so far (As soon as this gets sorted out I'll look into apotheosis and CHIM):
2E 852, The battle of Sancre Tor is fought
2E 854, Tiber Septim starts his reign
2E 890 (The 36 year of Tiber's reign), Sancre Tor is sealed by the first Grandmaster of the blades (presumably because of the curse)
2E 996 Tiber Septim uses the Numidium to conquer Tamriel
3E 38 Tiber Septim dies

Now, what does all this mean? Tiber was blessed at the first battle of Sancre Tor ("Before evil came to Sancre Tor, this shrine was a place of pilgrimage for all Blades"), and if The Armistice was made anytime after 2E 890 things get pretty darn interesting (assuming the Blades didn't just board up one of their greatest shrines "for the lulz").

[Ulysses]

Alright, this is what I've figured out so far (As soon as this gets sorted out I'll look into apotheosis and CHIM):
2E 852, The battle of Sancre Tor is fought
2E 854, Tiber Septim starts his reign
2E 890 (The 36 year of Tiber's reign), Sancre Tor is sealed by the first Grandmaster of the blades (presumably because of the curse)
2E 996 Tiber Septim uses the Numidium to conquer Tamriel
3E 38 Tiber Septim dies

Now, what does all this mean? Tiber was blessed at the first battle of Sancre Tor ("Before evil came to Sancre Tor, this shrine was a place of pilgrimage for all Blades"), and if The Armistice was made anytime after 2E 890 things get pretty darn interesting (assuming the Blades didn't just board up one of their greatest shrines "for the lulz").

Someone on /r/teslore had a theory that being dragonborn was something gifted by akatosh at some point during the person's life, as opposed to at birth. If one agrees with this theory then you could view the blessing at the first battle as Akatosh granting Tiber Septim with being dragonborn, after Tiber recovered the Chim-el Adabal. This would mean he learned his thu'um the hard way.

Still leaves the original question of his death, and if there ever was a second battle at Sancre Tor (or will they contradict/"fix" the lore of OBmobile in the future). Don't know if we'll ever get more lore on this, unless there are some very Talos specific quests in the next game.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The idea that it's a blessing someone receives after birth is supported by multiple in-game books, ranging from the lore about Alessia receiving the blessing on her deathbed in Song of Pelinal to the claim in Book of the Dragonborn that the Septims became Dragonborn during coronation. The belief was strong in the Second Era as well. Mannimarco used it to manipulate Emperor Varen into trying to become Dragonborn.

[Ulysses]

While reading about something vaguely related I came across this theory/deduction:

Link, all of ginja_ninja's posts are relevant.


It attributes the divinity of Talos to the activation of Numidium. Numidium expects to have Lorkhan as its power, but finds the mantella with a fuzed soul of zurin and wulfharth, potentially with some fuzed connection to Tiber Septim [Hjalti]. Numidium being Numidium, takes these three souls and creates a god (or something to that effect). How Numidium does this can be left to personal interpretation, I lean to the theory where the Dwemer became one with it and the souls of an entire race + soul of a shezzarine are enough to promote something like divinity.

The poster brushes over the CHIM of Tiber Septim, when it may have happened and how he learned of it. My theory there is that he learned of it from Vivec when the armistice was sussed out, and the knowledge furthered by his activation and interaction with the Numidium. To fit with this theory it is either not related, or somehow it adds to the divinity of Talos upon the death of Tiber Septim.

I see another way that doesn't involve Numidium: Zurin and Wulfharth are fuzed into the Mantella, and over-soul that is part shezzarine. Upon CHIM, Tiber merges fuzes/links his soul with wulfharth/zurin. Now we have an over-soul that is part shezzarine and dragonborn/avatar of akatosh; perhaps this combo was enough that upon the death of Tiber the mortal Talos (the over-soul) has enough divine heritage to become divine itself, either on its own or as some kind of hybrid combined aspect of aka and lorkhan.