Who's older?

[MidbossVyers]

Obviously, there are volumes of debate whether or not Sithis was the first thing: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Sithis_%28book%29 but thinking a bit smaller, did Alduin or Lorkhan come first? http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Alduin says that dragons existed since the advent of time, while Lorkhan was created as Sithis's response to the Aedras' "rebellion".

This resulted in Lorkhan's persuasion or deception, which then created Mundus. When Sithis begat Lorkhan, did Alduin already exist? What about Lorkhan's age compared to dragons other than Alduin? Alduin is called the first dragon, but what was the time interval between his "birth" from Akatosh and the other dragons' "birth"?

[BetaB17]

Well first off, let me address Sithis<_< Simply by the fact both of the primordial beings follow a linear path of progression, tho most of it occurs prior to the introduction of time

Anu = Padomay
Anuiel = Sithis
Anui'El/Akatosh = Lorkhan

:

It's hard to say which primordial force existed first from the void, stasis or chaos <_< as you said, there are volumes that discuss this. Padomay is the personification of chaos, Sithis(by comparision with Anuiel) would represent his soul i.e. a literal entity and not just a primal force. However much of that can be debated, tho Lorkhan's creation is rather detailed in contrast.

In my own belief, I find that both Padomay n Anu came into existence simultaneously. Whether there was a union or 'original entity' like the All-Maker can be easily questioned. In comparison, there souls' n representations of oneself should happen in sequence as well.

If I recall from a volume, Anu n Padomay were one n the same, this could be in itself the void >_> Anu is everything that is, while Padomay is everything that is not. When Anu looked upon himself so that 'he may know oneself', Anuiel was created(and so too Sithis). Lastly when Akatosh finally came into existence, he brought about time, which is rather significant <_< In responce to Akatosh and other 'Aedra', Sithis created Lorkhan to ruin them. It's hard to say if he followed through with his wishes.. or went with his own(whether for good or evil intent). Either way, with the Aedra.. or Et'ada of 'mingled' blood, begs the question of Akatosh's exact status with Anu.

I really question some of the subtle stuff, but ya, with so many conflicting beliefs, origins, and tales, it's all a huge mess >__< Ironically so, I kind of want to point something out >_> what with Sithis/Padomay being the source of all chaos, and thus what allowed creation to even happen.. Anu gets alot of the credit whether or not they deal with chaos n not stasis. Frankly, I just think most folk(namely elves) want to attribute all good with Anu n all evil with Padomay., which is a bit bias(as am I)

Written by Beta, but not revised

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Back to the answer. Seeing as anything before Akatosh lacks the subject of time, we really can only be partially certain afterwards. Since Lorkhan was created in response and thus during the introduction of time >_> I would say it's more like:

Akatosh-->time-->Lorkhan-->Mundas

As to Akatosh's children, the dragons. While indeed timeless(since by extention they're linked to Aka) they has to of existed after the creation of Mundas and the Auribus >_> and both seeing Lorkhab was responsible for it's creation and that Alduin's role is to 'eat' the Auribus n all things in it.. we can surmise Lorkhan is older than Alduin. If he had existed before its creation, he would for lack of a better word be without purpose

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Wasn't Akatosh one of the first spirits to form in the Aurbis? In most mythologies, he and Lorkhan are there from very early on, but it's not stated directly who came first. In fact, the stories often contradict one another by design, as they reflect very different worldviews. None of the gods technically exist in their familiar forms before linear Time began. Whatever happened before the beginning is kind of in the same category as "what's North of the North Pole?" It's a question that cannot, by design, have an intelligible or accurate response. I think the important thing to remember is that Lorkhan is the Space God, and Akatosh is the Time God. Does Space have meaning without Time? Or vice versa? Can either of these two concepts have meaning in the absence of the other? I'm doubtful. Since they complete one another, they likely appeared together.

[MidbossVyers]

OK, I know that gods are formless, and their appearances are only what mortals see them as, but are there any visual depictions of Lorkhan, Shor, or Shezarr? Even Sithis http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-interi ... low_08.jpg has a statue, and Sithis is primordial chaos itself. In other words, Lorkhan should have more "identity" than Sithis, but has anyone ever made a visualization of that identity?

[legoless]

OK, I know that gods are formless, and their appearances are only what mortals see them as, but are there any visual depictions of Lorkhan, Shor, or Shezarr? Even Sithis http://www.uesp.net/wiki/File:OB-interi ... low_08.jpg has a statue, and Sithis is primordial chaos itself. In other words, Lorkhan should have more "identity" than Sithis, but has anyone ever made a visualization of that identity?

There's been plenty depictions.

And here's the inside of a temple to Lorkhaj (ignore the Anchor).

[MidbossVyers]

I probably should specify which religion's views of him. For example, most Elven cultures believe that Lorkhan had a "showdown" with Auriel and Trinimac ending with Trinimac ripping Lorkhan's heart out. What image do elves have of him during this "showdown"? Of course, Redguard religion views many deities associated with Padomay as snakes, and Khajiit religion views pretty much of all their gods as cats.

[legoless]

Dawn Era scenes like that exist only in myth. You wouldn't really expect to see something as metaphorical as that depicted on a stained glass window, for example. Besides, the whole point of a Missing God is the lack of presence.

[MidbossVyers]

According to http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Five_Song ... _Wulfharth Lorkhan had recruited Dagoth Ur and undead King Wulfharth but was defeated by Nerevar. Did Lorkhan physically manifest in that battle and in what form, or is this another metaphorical battle?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The "secret song" is notably written in a very different style from the others. It's believed it has different authorship. Perhaps someone with the specific agenda to sell you the idea that Lorkhan physically manifested in that battle. The question we have to ask ourselves is who would benefit the most from people believing that?

[MidbossVyers]

Well, most humans consider Lorkhan a great hero, while most elves consider him a terrible villain (this is ironic for Mankar Camoran because he said that mortals vilified Lorkhan, despite the fact that some mortals don't). On a side note, is the Eating Birth of Dagon considered canon? I have another point that I have to say, if it is. If not, then please ignore it.

[legoless]

Isn't that from the Seven Fights? I like that origin story, but I don't believe it's "canon", no.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I'd classify it as "probably mostly not canon but plausible in parts", since it was vaguely referenced via painted cows, and the idea that some secret unknown event prompted the Snow Elves to sack Saarthal was definitely used in Skyrim, and originated in two different MK stories (the Pocket Guide and The Tenpenny Winter [Again]).