Golems and Undead Constructs

[MidbossVyers]

OK, I've had this conversation in various fantasy lore forums already, so I thought I'd bring it here for ES lore. Anyway, first of all, vampires and liches are obviously undead because they are animated by the souls that they had in life, and vestiges are vestiges. However, I was wondering about how to compare skeletons and zombies with golems and flesh atronachs. For example, flesh atronachs are made of dead flesh but are not considered undead because they are animated by a bound Daedra, rather than a dead soul.

On the other hand, Bone Colossi http://uesp.net/wiki/Online:Bone_Colossus count as undead, despite looking at abstract art. In other words, if they are undead, rather than golems, then they are animated by the soul that they once had in life. However, judging just by the skulls, the materials used to create them were taken from at least 3 people. Which of those souls was placed inside to animate it?

Similarly, I know that killing a summoned Daedra will banish the physical form back into Oblivion, but killing unbound Daedra will often yield a physical corpse, except in Battlespire, apparently, which often can be looted for Daedra body parts, like hearts, skin, etc. However, what if you reanimated that body? Does the concept of an undead Daedra make sense? If so, would that undead be animated by the Daedric vestige that animated it before or something else?

[Dark Spark]

...On the other hand, Bone Colossi http://uesp.net/wiki/Online:Bone_Colossus count as undead, despite looking at abstract art. In other words, if they are undead, rather than golems, then they are animated by the soul that they once had in life. However, judging just by the skulls, the materials used to create them were taken from at least 3 people. Which of those souls was placed inside to animate it? ...

Why not all three?

[MidbossVyers]

... Well, you know that 3 Stooges thing where they all tried to fit through a door and ended up with no one doing so?

[Dark Spark]

Which is bound to make any outside observer think the creature has some issues. Like behavioral instability, lack of empathy or understanding. The tendency to lash out violently as if in frustration or hidden conflict.

Perhaps the malevolent actions which we see undead and automata do all the time come from undesirable side-effects of animation. Nightingale Sentinels provide us an example of undead spirits "losing" something they had before, becoming unstable in the process.

When Daedra manifest in Mundus, they come in whole. Undead have to be put back together before they can be useful, as it were. Something is bound to be missing in that process.

Considering that, the chances are good the Undead will always be one taco short of a combination plate.

[BetaB17]

I'm just going to tackle the question I have confidence in but I highly doubt the daedra can be reanimated even if unbound. When you 'kill' them, be it in Oblivion or Mundas, they are banished. Whatever remains they leave, it is more than just flesh >_> it is still of their essence, of chaos given form. I wouldnt be surprised if the body eventually dissolved or faded much like their bound brethren.

The issue being, necromancy deals with more than just reanimated mortal souls, but that of mortal flesh too. Think of the flesh atronachs, a body of actual mended flesh and laced with bindings to keep the daedra within bound>_> clearly inspired by necromancy, but why go thru all that effort when you could just subject undead daedra? Point being, Daedra are too different from mortals for necromancy to work. You could place a Daedra in a constructed body or in contrast by replacing a mortal's soul with a vestige, but anything more is beyond reach.

If you really considered what comprised that of a daedra's body n then tried to animate it... you would end up with a puddle or goop.. or whatever the chaotic creatia original state was. It's a futile attempt, one most unrewarding. If anything.. it'll just be easier to create something new or corrupt(i.e Daedric titans) than to reanimate something so fleeting, then again you'll need a Prince for that

[MidbossVyers]

Both Oblivion and Skyrim (the games) have dungeons with Daedra in them, including humanoid ones, such as Dremora. Has anyone cast a reanimation spell on their remains? Also http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Corpse_Preparation suggests not to reanimate animals because they are harder to control, but let's say you had a pet dog who was extremely loyal to you in life. Would the memories of that loyalty affects its undead form?

For example, Oblivion: Shivering Isles actually had a pet skinned hound that you could get http://uesp.net/wiki/Shivering:Ushnar's_Skinned_Hound and the Draugr of Labyrinthian employ spectral hounds? Of course, you can also reanimate wolves and mammoths that you kill the wild. Of course, I'm not counting Death Hounds because they are more vampiric undead than reanimated undead.

[legoless]

Flesh Atronachs are constructed similarly to any undead golem, but are animated by a Daedric vestige rather than a mortal soul. Pretty simple distinction to make.

Undead Daedra aren't a thing in lore. Daedra leave behind a corpse and sometimes usable parts, sure, but they supposedly don't last long on Mundus. After all, like BetaB17 said, they're just chaotic creatia. Putting a mortal soul inside a Daedric "body" is possible of course, but it gives you a Soul Shriven, not a zombie clannfear.

Pretty sure you answered your own question on pet dogs. Skinned hounds, bonewolves, ghostly dogs... there's plenty of evidence that man's best friend can continue to serve in undeath. I wouldn't let one around children though.

[MidbossVyers]

In terms of spiritual undead, ghosts can still affect the material world in the same way as when they were physical, correct? For example, I've seen wraiths use swords, and ghost bandits still have lootable gear. However, ghosts are also known to walk through walls and barriers. Their gear, which is supposedly solid and lootable, goes with them, how? Some ghost stories have semi-transparent ghosts drinking and you can see the drink through their "bodies".

[BetaB17]

I believe the topic on spirits is subjective>_> some ghosts are litte more than phantoms, or their influence is highly limited in te physical realm. Likewise, some are just as solid as you are(granted some are immune to lesser means of harm). Idk, maybe some ghosts find their weapon or tools n choose to wield them once more? Its hard to say really

[MidbossVyers]

Now, a question about a very specific undead. I recall, back in Oblivion, when you fight Lorgren Benirus, a lich http://uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Lorgren_Benirus he calls you "mortal" even if you're playing as a vampire. Is it because he cannot tell that you are a vampire, or is it because, in his eyes, you do not yet have enough "experience" as an undead, like how enemy vampires in Skyrim http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Vampire will say "Let me show you how mortal you still are, vampire." to player vampires? Also, I note that http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Elder_Scrolls ... 's_Archive has a Q&A session with various NPCs. These questions would be great to ask Mannimarco or the Underking.

[BetaB17]

Even vampires are mortals<_< heck, fact alone they are the only undead that can be cured of their condition.. excluding fire

[legoless]

Vampires are just as immortal as liches. Lorgren's line is just an oversight, nothing to take away from it.

As for ghosts, some spirits can definitely wield solid weapons. Lord Berich Vlindrel's wraith wields the Sword of the Crusader. As for ghosts with gear that is transparent and yet lootable, that's usually a bug. Although there are those lootable ethereal weapons from Labyrinthian, like the Drainheart Sword.

[Dark Spark]

The way I figure it— matter which makes the physical body of a summoned daedra most likely originates from Oblivion, while the corporeal form of the undead obviously comes from Mundus. Trying to bind an undead spirit into a body made of Oblivion may not work.

A construct of Mundus infused with the spirit of daedra is possible, though. Hence the atronach.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

It should be noted that according to some lore, the Reanimate spells from Skyrim (or Mannimarco's Staff of Worms in Oblivion) involve shoving a Lesser Daedra into a dead body and forcing it to serve you. Technically, the subject is both Daedric and Undead, but not "undead Daedric" since Daedra don't really die. It's a living Daedra in a nonliving but functional body. Constructs like the Bone Colossus probably work on similar principles.

[MidbossVyers]

Boziikkodstrun is a Soul Shriven Dragon, and Durnehviir is a "proper" Undead Dragon. However, is the Skeletal Dragon in Labyrinthian an undead, a Soul Shriven, or just some kind of golem, given that it does not appear to have a soul to absorb?

[legoless]

I'd say the skeletal dragon is reanimated undead, i.e. some other kind of soul inside.

[MidbossVyers]

But not a dragon soul?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

But not a dragon soul?

If there were a Dragon soul in there, it would still use the Thu'um* and yield a Dragon soul when a Dragonborn slays it. Probably just an above average Daedric soul or the soul of a particularly powerful animal or humanoid shoved into the remains. The assumption is that the Dragon at Labyrinthian was slain by an actual Dragonborn in the past - possibly Miraak - and was reanimated by conventional necromancy, perhaps by Shalidor himself, or more likely by Morokei, whose sorcery was potent.

*You could argue its Frost Breath attack is the actual Thu'um, or otherwise just conventional sorcery. I believe this is more gameplay than lore - a way the creature can have a ranged attack, like other Dragons do. It still being able to use the Thu'um without its original soul isn't super problematic, since it may be as much a function of the body as the soul when it comes to Dragons.

[MidbossVyers]

Well, by my standards, "proper" undead are only ones that are reanimated by the soul that it had in life. If it's using another soul or animus, then it would just be a bone golem.

[BetaB17]

Boziikkodstrun is a Soul Shriven Dragon, and Durnehviir is a "proper" Undead Dragon. However, is the Skeletal Dragon in Labyrinthian an undead, a Soul Shriven, or just some kind of golem, given that it does not appear to have a soul to absorb?

I wouldnt call Durn a 'proper' undead dragon in the least <_< more like a corrupted version. Then again, he is the only dragon thus far that we know delved into necromancy.. so it's hard to say.

Per the Skeleton dragon? Stands to reason its a reanimation <_< May I just add at the potential herecy of such an act, especially by a dragon priest? Begs the question if the dragons permitted or even encouraged/tought such an act, considering how angry they got when Miraak make some questionable décor

[MidbossVyers]

Well, I call Durnehviir a dracolich. As for the skeletal dragon, I have a different response, depending on whether the animus is a dragon soul or not.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The thing about the Dragon Priests is that at their hearts, the thing they love and respect the most is themselves. They were the mortal Men with the most greedy, wicked and power hungry souls, which is why the Dragons chose them to serve as their high priests, and rule over other Men. All they had to do was go through the motions of serving the Dragons. As long as they got the job done and didn't openly rebel, the Dragons gave less than two [&@%!] how loyal they really were at heart.

It's telling that a handful of the reanimated Dragon Priests in Skyrim were specifically plotting to take over the world. Not just Miraak but a few others like Hevnoraak. Even high ranking Draugr who aren't necessarily priests, like Halldir seem intent on controlling people through their willpower and artifacts. Not just their undead servants but mortals who enter their realms. The implication here is that they're only serving the Dragons because it's convenient for them, and a way for them to accrue power and prestige. Evil usually turns on itself eventually, which explains the whole Miraak thing. I'd say a Priest like Morokei, who is willing and able to rule a large chunk of Mundus if freed, wouldn't give a damn about honoring the remains of some old dead Dragon, especially one without a soul, if he can use it to crush his enemies.

[MidbossVyers]

Ow, that's a bit harsh. According to http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Dragon_War dragon worship on Atmora was much more benevolent, but something triggered more brutal forms of worship on Tamriel. Now, I'm not saying that you're completely wrong, but along with power-hungry dragon priests, I do believe that there were some who were loyal. Heck http://uesp.net/wiki/Dragonborn:The_Gua ... he_Traitor writes Vahlok, like a hero.

[BetaB17]

Back on topic, has there been any return of golems in TES since daggerfall? I dont plqy ESO so I cant really say if it would

[MidbossVyers]

Well, apparently, Atronach is an umbrella term for both golems and elemental Daedra:
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Golem
http://uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Elemental_Daedra
And there were Atronachs in ESO. Were some of them golems?