Apotheosis

[MidbossVyers]

Mannimarco, in http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Arkay_the_Enemy suggests that Arkay was once mortal. Mannimarco himself became the God of Worms. The Champion of Cyrodiil became Sheogorath. The current controversy in Skyrim is over the divinity of Talos. Which other gods were once mortal?

[legoless]

Quite a lot. Culture heroes like Morihaus and Reman are supposedly worshipped as gods, and obviously the Tribunal are the most famous mortal gods.

[BetaB17]

There is also the Wilderking, in a way

[MidbossVyers]

Yes, but apotheosis is not as easy as becoming Thane of Whiterun, correct?

[Dark Spark]

Mai'q the Liar. He tells some. Knows much. Burned a sweetroll.

[MidbossVyers]

Let's reword my question. You said that Morihaus and Reman are also considered gods, but what are their spheres? In other words, what exactly do they "do"? For example, Talos is god of Mankind. Sheogorath is the god of Madness. Arkay is the god of the "Proper" Passage between Life and Death. However, Mannimarco's sphere is apparently just screwing over Arkay's sphere, rather than its own thing.

[IcarusBen]

Mannimarco: God of [@#@].

I'm pretty sure Morihaus and Reman aren't often considered Divines, but instead are like the old Roman emperor when they die, they're deified. Of course, Talos is that taken to it's logical extreme; he became THE god of man.

[legoless]

The spheres of a god are shaped by their worshippers, not vice versa. If everyone started praying to Reman Cyrodiil to bless their wheat fields, he'd become a harvest god.

Morihaus and Reman specifically are Imperial heroes, so I imagine as gods they'd be champions of men. But as far we we know they just have small cults similar to this, rather than large congregations or blood sacrifices usually associated with 'true' TES gods. Even small gods can have power though.

Yes, but apotheosis is not as easy as becoming Thane of Whiterun, correct?

Anybody can become Thane of Whiterun.

I wouldn't call it easy, but all it really takes is a little ancestor worship or a source of divine power to "ascend". Vivec and Talos achieved CHIM, Sai was given his godhead by the gods themselves, Phynaster lives on as an honoured Altmeri ancestor, etc. etc.

[BetaB17]

Reman holds much controversy. He could of become something like a god with actual divinity, heck he may of just had a strong connection to an individual god >_> He could of just been a mere mortal chosen by fate, or just a ruler who was given more credit than needed. Personally, I dont find much weight behind his divinity, much like the Roman emperors… fact alone Alessian should of been given more praise than he.

Morihaus on the other hand is weird, he fits along with Pelinal seeing as both have some manner of link to the Ada, but its hard to say if he's an aspect, mostly myth, or something else entirely. I mean, it's always plausible for him to be more like a demi-god than some avatar >_> after all, Umaril the Unfeathered was certainly more than mere mortal. Likewise Shezarrines are harder to define or subject, since very few are confirmed(ironically most form Talos now)

Still, it seems to the Imperials, the Divines are rather exclusive, Talos ironically being the oddity of the bunch(he isnt a true Aedra). To the Imperials at least, Lorkhan(or Shezar) is the missing god, so Talos sort of fills the slot now.

Still, while I do find the Divines as more vague in character, the elves werent all to clear when defining the Aedra either >_> Arkay is odd(he could of been mortal, he could of been Et'ada, idk), but due to ancestral worship we have folk like Phynaster who obviously were just mortals. May I just add the irony that the nords, a classic warrior-culture, they rarely deem even the greatest amongst them as gods(Talos is the exception), which is odd given trends

[legoless]

Alessia is worshipped, but as a saint rather than a goddess. She's irrevocably linked to Akatosh.

Morihaus is thought to be the literal son of Kyne, and has been cast as a demiprince.

Phynaster wasn't necessarily mortal. The Altmer see mortality as a curse that their ancestors weren't subjected to. A lot of their venerated ancestors could just be fragmentary Dawn Era memories from lost Aldmeris.

Still, it seems to the Imperials, the Divines are rather exclusive, Talos ironically being the oddity of the bunch(he isnt a true Aedra).

Talos is just as much of an Aedra as Arkay. He is regarded as a Divine in the Imperial pantheon and apparently as a totem by the Nords. Don't forget, he was the one to finally destroy Umaril, something even the combined power of Pelinal and the Eight couldn't achieve.

[BetaB17]

Reman just kind of naws at me a bit >__< of all the praise n worship he gets, Alessia deserves more. Oh well, at least Tiber 1-up'd Reman by my account

Oh, I was refering to Aedra as it's literal meaning, an Ada who aided in creation i.e. 'Our ancestor'. I dont discredit Talos as a Divine, there is proof to his power. But nowhere is he ever refered to as Aedra, only as(or to some, not) a Divine.

Arkay on the otherhand.. well his mythology is weird.. He 'could' be no different than Talos, or he could be just the same as Mara, his origin conflicts. Still, he is usually rreferred to as an Aedra(proof of it is up in the sky)

[MidbossVyers]

Alessia is worshipped, but as a saint rather than a goddess. She's irrevocably linked to Akatosh.

Morihaus is thought to be the literal son of Kyne, and has been cast as a demiprince.

Phynaster wasn't necessarily mortal. The Altmer see mortality as a curse that their ancestors weren't subjected to. A lot of their venerated ancestors could just be fragmentary Dawn Era memories from lost Aldmeris.

Still, it seems to the Imperials, the Divines are rather exclusive, Talos ironically being the oddity of the bunch(he isnt a true Aedra).

Talos is just as much of an Aedra as Arkay. He is regarded as a Divine in the Imperial pantheon and apparently as a totem by the Nords. Don't forget, he was the one to finally destroy Umaril, something even the combined power of Pelinal and the Eight couldn't achieve.

Now that you brought up Umaril, I was wondering... When Umaril was "destroyed", was his soul energy blipped out of existence, or was simply the identity of his soul instantly erased (something that happens gradually in the Dreamsleeve)? I was under the impression that souls cannot be destroyed, but what most people call the "destruction" of the soul is simply the identity of that soul being wiped (like how wiping a hard drive does not destroy the actual hard drive).

[BetaB17]

Well keep in mind, me may of had a vestige, not a soul >_> much like the Daedra but given Meridia's anuic nature, it may not be the same

Defeated his flesh is a limited solution, you have to kill him on a more ethereal form where he is vulnerable.The way he was defeated seems to mirror how many assume a Daedra may be killed(i.e in Aethereuis, preventing their return to Oblivion). In a theory, with Talos's blessing you were able to follow him spiritually, and possibly trapping him in Mundas while doing so(where the Divines happen to hold influence).

[MidbossVyers]

So Umaril is Soul Shriven? Basically, his soul is already with Meridia, and Meridia "blessed" him with a Vestige to allow him movement on Mundus?

[legoless]

Not Soul Shriven, that term is only for Molag Bal's slaves. But he certainly seems to be a Vestige, if not a demiprince.

[BetaB17]

Do we have a thread yet discussing the offspring n relations of Daedra, namely the Princes<_<

But back to the op, I forget if Sai(god of luck?) was once a mortal>_>

[all_freed]

prince of beggars might be one too. well it was more of a curse but he basically worshipped by the beggars

and the silvenar might be a demigod too.

[BetaB17]

Refresh me on silvenar?

[legoless]

A mortal Bosmer who embodies the spiritual side of his race, lifebound to the Green Lady, who represents the physical side. Both have godlike power, but die and are reborn every generation.

[MidbossVyers]

Do the memories transfer over? If not, then it's just a standard reincarnation and technically not immortality.

[BetaB17]

Right, bc if that was a case for immortality/ divinity then Nevar would of been considered

[legoless]

Dunno about the Silvenar, but the spirits of previous Green Ladies must return to a sacred grove called Treehenge to be "rooted" and become matrons. They grow into trees or spriggans or something and preserve past memories, but if the grove was theoretically destroyed or if a spirit doesn't root itself quick enough then those memories are lost. In ESO the new Green Lady also loses her memories when Hircine uses Spinner magic to rewrite her story, but that's a totally different issue.

[MidbossVyers]

Right, bc if that was a case for immortality/ divinity then Nevar would of been considered

Well, is reincarnation through the Dreamsleeve a "normal" process, then?

[legoless]

Dreamsleeve reincarnation isn't canon. Souls go to Aetherius.

[MidbossVyers]

And stay there indefinitely with identity?