Steam Mods Now Purchasable (UPDATE: No more)

[Seht]

So Steam Workshop now has the option for modders to put their works behind paywalls. Shezrie, Chesko, Arthmoor and isoku have already jumped on the bandwagon. Are we all looking forward to a future of modding just becoming another form of paid DLC? Even worse is that these authors will likely pull their mods from other sites, forcing us to use Steam Workshop's horrible system to download these mods.

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AKB: In lieu of the huge outcry about this already, and in the interest of avoiding just starting another stickied thread, I'm hijacking your topic Seht. Sorry. this thread's name has been changed from "Where Were You When Modding Died?" to "Steam Mods Now Purchasable". Also, instead of just expressing outrage at this, let's discuss the actual impact on the modding scene here. How it will help or hinder modders who are only willing to provide their services this way, whether or not this will have much success, and how this might change the modding scene as a whole. Let's avoid the knee jerk reaction here, and actually look at this.

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Alarra: This is a big enough change to edit the front post about it:

Paid Skyrim mods have been removed from the Steam Workshop, and anyone who has purchased one will be refunded:
http://steamcommunity.com/games/SteamWo ... 5253244218

[Archer]

The thing to consider is all of those who already have these mods downloaded. What can they do about that? Nothing. These authors that set up this paywall will soon find that they won't be any new downloads.
All this is going to do is push people to start pirating mods.

[Seht]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. The fact that people willingly use Steam Workshop over sites like the Nexus is already a pretty big sign of the stupidity of a lot of mod users. I'm sure that if they have enough shiny things dangled in front of them they'll start paying up for stuff they can get for free elsewhere. Trainwiz and Elianora have already spoken against this however so I guess there's some modders who are always going to be on the side of their fans.

[Deandra]

The vast majority of modders have always been willing to share their hard work with others for no compensation beyond warm fuzzy feelings. I don't know why that would change.

To those who are asking to be paid for their work: good for them. They're basically doing the work of a game developer anyway.

I would never charge for my mods, but I am in full support of giving other mod authors more options.

[Seht]

I am in full support of giving other mod authors more options.

If this takes off it'll have the exact opposite effect. For all people like to talk up their qualities Valve and Zenimax are ultimately pragmatic companies with an interest in making as much money as they can and little in the way of long-term sensibility. If the idea of paying for mods gets accepted do you think they'll tolerate modding outside of their control in the future? I can see Fallout 4 and TES VI having far stricter controls on what can be done with them, likely involving having to install every single mod through the Workshop. Aside from Steam Workshop really being a monumentally awful tool for modding the game it also means that every little submission can get vetted by the companies. Lewd mods? Bye bye to those. Fun little mods made for quick jokes or one-time experiences? Into the trash they go, they aren't profitable. Anything that might dare besmirch the good names of Valve and Zenimax? Not a chance. "You don't have to pay for it" is the exact same argument people were throwing about when they were defending DLC a decade ago and look how that turned out. But maybe you're right, instead of just letting modders open Patreons or Paypals Zenimax is absolutely right to try and rake in the profits themselves. I personally can't wait for Arthmoor to pull the Unofficial Patches from the Nexus and put them up for a fiver on the Workshop, making the game functionally unplayable unless we buy it all over again.

[likelolwhat]

This is going to be a disaster. I can feel it.

[Seht]

I've saved some amusing events from this fiasco. A bit of bad language so don't click if you're sensitive to that stuff:

http://imgur.com/a/myOCj

There's rumours going around that a new version of SkyUI that's been in production for a while that's going to go up soon, so my prediction of us having to pay extra for something to actually make this game playable might well be proven true. There's also an alleged statement by Isoku circulating where he claims he's going to remove the free version of Wet & Cold in a few hours, so if you're interested in that mod and don't have it downloaded I'd advise fixing that now.

[MetaCthulhu]

As long as there is the ability to make free mods I am okay with them building a payment system into some of them.
But, and this is a very large but, I am deeply concerned that this will lead to companies only letting very few mods out, and cripple modding by the people, for the people.

But I run GNU/Linux so I may be more open than most.

[Deandra]

I am in full support of giving other mod authors more options.

If this takes off it'll have the exact opposite effect. For all people like to talk up their qualities Valve and Zenimax are ultimately pragmatic companies with an interest in making as much money as they can and little in the way of long-term sensibility. If the idea of paying for mods gets accepted do you think they'll tolerate modding outside of their control in the future? I can see Fallout 4 and TES VI having far stricter controls on what can be done with them, likely involving having to install every single mod through the Workshop. Aside from Steam Workshop really being a monumentally awful tool for modding the game it also means that every little submission can get vetted by the companies. Lewd mods? Bye bye to those. Fun little mods made for quick jokes or one-time experiences? Into the trash they go, they aren't profitable. Anything that might dare besmirch the good names of Valve and Zenimax? Not a chance. "You don't have to pay for it" is the exact same argument people were throwing about when they were defending DLC a decade ago and look how that turned out. But maybe you're right, instead of just letting modders open Patreons or Paypals Zenimax is absolutely right to try and rake in the profits themselves. I personally can't wait for Arthmoor to pull the Unofficial Patches from the Nexus and put them up for a fiver on the Workshop, making the game functionally unplayable unless we buy it all over again.

I don't buy this argument. You could use the same logic to argue that free mods compete with paid DLC, so Beth should have been restricting the ability to mod for the last several TES games, and yet the opposite is true.

And so what if a modder decides they want to get paid for their work? Do you think that you're somehow entitled to somebody else's work for free if they don't want to offer it? Some modders (like me) are happy to provide their work for free. Some might not want to deal with the constant whining and stupid comments and lack of respect they get after they share their work with the world, and might decide that, unless they're getting paid, it simply isn't worth their time anymore. How is that not a reasonable decision that we should support?

[Archer]

No, we don't think we are entitled to someone else's work. I would support a pay-what-you-want model, or even donations instead of having to pay $5 for any updated version of a mod, that may or may not work. One of the many issues that has just arisen is that random people are uploading mods they didn't make on Steam right now, effectively stealing the work of the actual author. And, because of current copyright laws, no one is sure if anything can currently be done for it. Also add in the fact, the content creator only gets 25% of the earnings, and they won't get a check until they've earned at least $100 dollars(while Valve and Bethesda pull in a neat $300), it really isn't helping anyone except Steam.

The whole reveal and implementation of this has been absolutely atrocious. Had it been done better, I think the backlash could have been contained a bit. But as it is, even the PCMasterRace has turned against Valve.

Edit:
This describes about how I feel on the subject, and is a good watch regardless of what your stance is.

Hidden:

YouTube Link

[AKB]

Read the original post again, per my alterations.

I tend to avoid criticizing modders for the simple fact that they are providing a free service to the community, my criticism has only been, for the most part, suggestions on how to improve your work when I've been asked for it, and it's usually been fairly private to allow them the ability to improve with as little negativity as possible. That goes out the door when you are selling me a service, however. When I'm being sold something, I look at it as less trying to help a fellow creator of content, and more as a consumer review when I provide feedback. As far as modding goes, I would offer very few modders my actual approval, since many mods are more on the amateurish side, as many modders are amateurs and enthusiasts. It's like with Greenlight, I despise most Greenlight games as they are garbage which are not worthy of being purchased in the state they are made available to be purchased.

To be entirely honest, I've noticed a lot fewer standouts in the modding community for Skyrim than I did for Morrowind and Oblivion. There were a lot more mods I would have honestly considered buying for the older games, but my list for Skyrim is dreadfully short. I can't name any mods I would buy for Skyrim off the top of my head, honestly. USKP and SkyUI, maybe, but that's basically being held hostage there.

As Archer said above, pay what you want would be highly appreciative for this sort of thing. If it gave me a prompt that said "Would you like to give a tip to the modder" on the subscribe screen for the workshop, I would do that for a few people.

And there's the whole issue with the gray area around the law here, as brought up by Archer. The EULA for Skyrim does make this clear cut, all mods are officially Bethesda's property (I haven't read that thing in years actually, correct me if it's been updated), so for this to work there would have to be some kind of secondary ownership of mods, with the modder getting rights to the distribution of their mod, however they choose to or not to do so.

Lastly, my interest in purchasing mods is much lower for a single player game. I care about my character standing out from the crowd in a multiplayer game much more, and am more willing to buy cosmetic items in games like that. I am not willing to ever get cosmetic items for Skyrim, as they're simply not useful in any practical way. Some really complex mods may make me consider purchasing them, but I can barely name any mods for Skyrim that would make me want to buy them.

In conclusion, nuts.

[Dunmerdude]

Issues I can see so far:

1. Valve's attitude to mod plagiarism is the apparently the same as their attitude to poor games, unless it's blatant they won't lift a finger. And if that's their attitude to plagiarism I dread their attitude to poor quality. And let's face it a large subsection of ES modders are Divas whose attitude to anything less then hero worship as feedback has historically been to claim that A. Their creative vision trumps player feedback and B. I'm making this for free so shut up. Which is fine, except these same people now want my money, and if they're going to expect their old attitude to still hold water with people when fans are now consumers they're sorely mistaken.

2. The few legit modders who've came out as planning to adopt this system are planning to paygate patches for mods they created months/ years ago, back when they had no expectation of being paid for it, this seems rather unethical to me, since even the legit game industry doesn't charge for patches.

3. The main beneficiaries of this deal are actually the developers, who can set whatever "tax" they want. So the real beneficiaries are Valve, who get money for nothing. And Bethesda, who have basically gutted the modding community by making sure that any major mod that comes through the pipe is going to be distributed under their control, and at a price that's going remove Mods as a replacement for DLC.

[Snake]

There's already a petition at change.org about this with over 5000 signatures. I've already signed because I just don't like the idea. Mods were always free and should always be free unless the author themselves want compensation for a huge complicated mod, which I'm OK with as long as it's of good quality.

That's why I like Linux. Besides it's kinda pointless for the people with fast connections because you can just go to the Linux distributions website and just download the ISO images.

[Dunmerdude]

There's already a petition at change.org about this with over 5000 signatures. I've already signed because I just don't like the idea. Mods were always free and should always be free unless the author themselves want compensation for a huge complicated mod, which I'm OK with as long as it's of good quality.

That's why I like Linux. Besides it's kinda pointless for the people with fast connections because you can just go to the Linux distributions website and just download the ISO images.

Online Petitions are literally the most ineffectual way to fight something. The Shaming tactics that are being organically deployed seem to be quite effective.

[AKB]

I haven't seen many mod authors respond, and definitely not any response from Beth or Valve. If they ignore the criticism, I do think most of the gaming community will just ignore it out of apathy.

As for that petition, it will be entirely ineffectual.

[Dunmerdude]

You'd be surprised how much people who've spent time building up an internet persona react to any threat to that persona. And big modders tend spend an inordinate amount of time building up a persona. And I personally feel that while a modder that works for free should be granted the traditional leeway (keeping criticism softball), someone asking for pay should be treated like any other commission worker. To be clear I'd never advocate harassment. What I mean is that if I'm paying money for something I'm going to be far blunter when it's not up to scratch, and most Skyrim mods aren't.

[AKB]

I agree with that, as I said above. I just don't think there are that many big name modders for Skyrim. I'm don't think I'm out of the loop on this, either, the ones people mention as being the "big" mods are things that add small survival mechanics, like you getting cold in cold places, or lighting mods, or difficulty tweak mods. I remember mods like those being the "dime a dozen" mods from the last few games, not the major ones. There are very, very, very few ambitious mods that try to add much of interest, and those mods tend to be crippled by their ambition. And maybe I'm ignoring some big ones, like Skywind, but that's mostly because it's already been done a dozen times and I have no interest in seeing it again. I would honestly say that there are almost no truly major mods for Skyrim that aren't bug fixes, to me.

[Dunmerdude]

Well of the Debut pack, you've got what? Wet and Cold (which being dependent on SKSE, in my opinion shouldn't be monetized), a follower mod which I can't comment on since I don't use such mods but I don't imagine them revolutionary, and a bunch of cosmetic swords and armors.

As TB said, basically Horse Armour all over again.

[Mauin]

Valve's attitude to mod plagiarism is the apparently the same as their attitude to poor games, unless it's blatant they won't lift a finger.

I am actually seriously afraid of that.
As a modder on the Nexus, what if something I did gets stolen and the thief tries to make a profit off of it? Would Valve actually do anything about it, or would I be stuck sitting around while somebody profits from my work? I made all of my mods at no cost to myself other than free time. I never expected anything in return for them. To have somebody take that thing that I made for free and earn a profit from it is a little on the insulting side.

Anyway, this is what I said on a Facebook post with this topic:

Hidden:

This all just seems like one massive cash grab from Bethesda and Valve. As far as I've heard, the modders only get 25% of the cut. The rest goes to Valve and Bethesda. I have multiple concerns about this...

1. The modders aren't actually getting that much. In order to actually make something, you'd either need to set the price higher or hope enough people are willing to pay for the mod that it sort of balances out (if it could be called that).

2. This seems to open up a new window for modders on free sites like the Nexus to have their work stolen and profited from. It has happened before to plenty of modders. Valve is going to have to step carefully, otherwise they are going to be wading through a sea of cow dung.

3. It's not actually the modders who will have to worry about this... The Skyrim mod community contains many rips from other games (armors, weapons, things like that...). Valve is going to need to filter that content out, otherwise, if somebody tries to profit from another company's work, they're going to be drowning in that sea of cow dung.

4. Paid mods, especially where the game developers make more than the modders, seems to be an invitation for the game developers to leave their games even more unfinished upon release. Why should they finish the game themselves when the modders can do it in a way that would allow the developer even more money? Of course, modders could do that for free, but that will only last as long as free mods do. If we are forced to pay for all mods... Oh, boy.

5. The greedy modders are now pulling their mods from the Nexus (or other free sites) to lock behind a paywall on the Workshop. That's one way to lose your user base right there. Others are leaving the outdated versions on the Nexus and only updating the non-free mod on Steam. Following that...

6. Mod piracy is probably going to become more common, especially in cases where the modder has pulled a previously free mod from the Nexus and stuck it on Steam behind a paywall. People already have it for free. Those on Steam who don't want to pay for a mod (especially if it's overpriced, which is bound to happen considering how much Valve/Bethesda get) are going to look for free copies.

7. What happens to those mods that use free resources or tools like SKSE? In that case, the people who charge for mods using those are basically profiting from the work of others. Should that sort of thing be allowed? I definitely don't think so. The people who created the tools or resources should at least get a cut. At least.

8. What does this mean for the future of modding? More and more people might try and make a profit from their mods. When the next ES (or Fallout) game comes out, how many of those mods are going to be free? How many are going to be paid mods? I know if most mods require a payment, I will refuse to use mods. It becomes microtransactions at that point and I really do hate them.

Yeah... That's about all I can think of at the moment.
Unfortunately, I already have a list of modders to boycott. It's only those that have either pulled their free mods from the Nexus, or refused to update them in favor of paid mods on the Workshop. I'm honestly afraid of that list expanding. This does not feel good at all.

[Dunmerdude]

Mauin, though I don't use your mods I do want to thank you for making them and keeping them free.

I agree unreservedly with that list. Plagiarism, use of free modding resources as dependencies for paid content and the robbery that is Valve's tithe are the chief issues in play here. I feel those are the issues people should focus on because it damages Modders and Users equally. Ultimately for the benefit of Valve, who stand to make solid profit without actually doing anything productive.

[Jeancey]

My point is, no one is required to charge for their mods. So as long as the modding community remains committed to free mods, this isn't an issue. That being said, mod plagiarism might be a major problem.

[Snake]

Online Petitions are literally the most ineffectual way to fight something. The Shaming tactics that are being organically deployed seem to be quite effective.

That's probably true but it never hurts to try.

I actually read somewhere once or twice where a online petition actually worked but I think the chances are few and far between. But still, it never hurts to try.

[Mauin]

Mauin, though I don't use your mods I do want to thank you for making them and keeping them free.

I'd say the same to anybody who chooses to keep their mods free. Elianora, Ramccoid, Trainwiz, and Apollodown have all said they would keep their mods free. I'm not sure how many others have, though. The comments on the Nexus post are getting long.

I've definitely spotted a few modders who say they won't release any more modders resources because they're afraid of the files being used for a profit without their knowledge. Others say they'll just stop modding entirely. Brumbek is torn on what to do (he needs money, but doesn't want to cut people out by charging for SMIM).

Yeah... This is all one giant [&@%!] at the moment. Not a good situation.

Edit:
Somewhat appropriately, I have that 'Shout' song stuck in my head...
Shout. Shout. Let it all out...

[MetaCthulhu]

I just read the EULA (http://store.steampowered.com/eula/eula_202480) and they pretty much have all their bases covered. Even asserting ownership of a mod makes it possible for them to take legal action against you. (At least I think that's how it reads)

As far as people plagiarising modders' works, it appears it is entirely legal to take somebody else's mod and post it wherever you want, or, alternatively, post it on Steam for however much you want to charge.

Of course I could be misreading it, so if someone knows better please let me know.

[Mauin]

You know, I actually am starting to consider removing all of my mods. If this is the way things are going... [&@%!] it. I'm done.
At the very least, I don't think I'm going to be creating or sharing any more mods. I am extremely unhappy with this.

Edit:
Apparently Valve has removed some stolen mods. The horse genitalia mod as one example. It was reported as stolen.
Of course, it could have been remove for being inappropriate or something, but who knows? I'd like to think it was removed because it was clearly stolen.