C0DA?

[IcarusBen]

Can someone explain the plot of C0DA to me? I kinda got lost in the script and can't seem to figure it out. It'd probably work better as an actual graphic novel.

[Seht]

The Thalmor manage to remove mankind from reality.

They cause a massive Dragon Break.

Numidium comes out from the Dragon Break and commences stomping.

The/A Nerevarine appears riding Akulakhan and engages in mecha warfare only to lose and die.

The Altmer are completely erased by an angry Numidium, some Dunmer escape to the moon.

They meet up with the Khajiit colonies on the moons and build a new society.

Not much happens for a while, the Dunmer and Khajiit continue doing what they do while Numidium continues destroying everything in sight back on Nirn.

Michael Kirkbride's Mary Sue self-insert Jubal turns up.

Jubal goes down to Nirn and destroys Numidium.

Jubal marries Kirkbride's other Mary Sue Vivec and they start a new dream that's less depressing.

There's a load of pretty unimportant lore-[&@%!] along the way but that's the basic gist of it.

[Jeancey]

The plot is

MK: "I'm slowly becoming irrelevant because nothing I ever say is ever really important or canon.... what if I just release something and say "canon gone forever" maybe then people will listen again"

That's about it. MK is.... like my least favorite person at this point, because he has a cult following for no good reason.

[IcarusBen]

The Thalmor removed Mankind from reality, suddenly giant robot, then Nerevarine comes riding in on a giant robot, tries to make first giant robot go poof, only second giant robot goes poof instead, then Mary-Sues and moon colonies up the wazoo.

Everyone, arm forward, and... GO.

Spoiler:

Bravo, bravo! MK's managed to make the Thalmor arc even MORE incredibly stupid! And, from what I see, only the Dunmer, Khajiit, Bosmer and Argonians survive, plus any non-man race in Akavir and maybe the Imga, and I can only say for certain the first two are alive, because I didn't hear any mention of the others! This is just silly.

Michael Kirkbride, just go back to writing lore books, please. You've kinda ruined Elder Scrolls.

Here's a question, though; when did Dunmer manage to invent spaceships, the technology required to get to Masser and Secunda? Better yet, how did the Skooma-loving, rather primitive-by-comparison Khajiit beat them to it? I thought the world of Nirn was sorta locked in the Renaissance era, save for the Dwemer inventions. Better yet, when did spaceships become a thing? Certainly not during the 4th Era, no. Industrialization would've certainly been the spark of the 5th Era, and such a huge Dragon Break would've caused the 6th Era to start, yet we're still in the 5th!

[AKB]

Moved to TES General

C0Da isn't very well written in my opinion, the ideas it brings up are nothing new, and I'm not very fond of it for a large number of reasons that I will not go into again. It is not an official part of the series though, and just where Kirkbride would have taken it if he had stayed with Bethesda. Since he left after Morrowind, and only did some minor contract work for Oblivion, I would say his direction is no longer the intended one for the series.

So if you don't care for C0Da, you can safely ignore it, there are a few stalwart supporters out there, but they seem to stick primarily to their little bubble. It's definitely become much less noteworthy in recent time, and will probably become less noteworthy with each passing installment of the franchise.

[Jeancey]

I don't think we should be using anything new from him from now on on the wiki, and that what we DO use should be questions asked near Morrowind's release about specific stuff from Morrowind. Nothing else. He has no authority to comment on really anything from Skyrim on anyway, since he didn't create anything new for that (Heimskar aside, which is a crazy NPC. Like actually insane and nothing he says is really trustable).

[Imbalance]

Here's a question, though; when did Dunmer manage to invent spaceships, the technology required to get to Masser and Secunda? Better yet, how did the Skooma-loving, rather primitive-by-comparison Khajiit beat them to it? I thought the world of Nirn was sorta locked in the Renaissance era, save for the Dwemer inventions. Better yet, when did spaceships become a thing? Certainly not during the 4th Era, no. Industrialization would've certainly been the spark of the 5th Era, and such a huge Dragon Break would've caused the 6th Era to start, yet we're still in the 5th!

Airships have long been a thing, there was a flying city, and the Dunmer had kind of a penchant for Rising Force. I don't know about spaceships or much about this C0Da, but it's not entirely outside of the realm of TES possibility. Stop trying to equate progress in fictional worlds to our reality, and let the magic do its thing.

[Trelares]

Here's a question, though; when did Dunmer manage to invent spaceships, the technology required to get to Masser and Secunda? Better yet, how did the Skooma-loving, rather primitive-by-comparison Khajiit beat them to it? I thought the world of Nirn was sorta locked in the Renaissance era, save for the Dwemer inventions. Better yet, when did spaceships become a thing? Certainly not during the 4th Era, no. Industrialization would've certainly been the spark of the 5th Era, and such a huge Dragon Break would've caused the 6th Era to start, yet we're still in the 5th!

Airships have long been a thing, there was a flying city, and the Dunmer had kind of a penchant for Rising Force. I don't know about spaceships or much about this C0Da, but it's not entirely outside of the realm of TES possibility. Stop trying to equate progress in fictional worlds to our reality, and let the magic do its thing.

Also in all honesty, they probably could just have teleported there. You can open a portal to a daedric realm, so how hard can it be to open on to the moons, who are physically far nearer.

[Minor Edits]

MK is the reason I'm an Elder Scrolls fan. He's like Joseph Campbell meets Hunter S. Thompson. He's not just one of my favorite TES writers, he's one of my favorite writers period.

That being said, I try to pride myself on judging things by their merit. I avidly try to avoid the "fanboy" mentality, I don't "white knight" problems. And like many great writers throughout history, I think MK is far, far better with an editor. If you don't have someone to keep the gonzo stuff in line, you get ... well, c0da.

If you take it for what it is, one man's exploration of TES themes, it can be enjoyable. If you think of it as a "real" part of TES... Ew.

Still, I think some of the comments above are overreacting. Yes, his last formal work for Bethesda was Knights of the Nine, but Skyrim also featured a few quotes from his work, and ESO has incorporated concepts from a deluge of his writings. He can't and shouldn't be entirely ignored (though he gets too much play as it stands).

What annoys me is not MK, and it never was. It's his fans. While he can't be ignored, he also surely gets much more attention than he should. There's a lot of good works of fan fiction out there, but they get less attention than they deserve. They exist in the shadow of MK's works, and it's a real shame. Meanwhile, some treat it as a given that c0da is some genius work which will dictate the future of the series. The irony of it all is that c0da was encouragement for others to think for themselves and come up with their own visions of the lore. But instead of doing so, they by and large just continue to parrot his. C0da promotes this idea of open source lore, but the very fact that some put his works on a pedestal demonstrate that this is a delusion. Because why does c0da matter at all? It was written by MK.

And if personal taste really was the only arbiter, if telling a good story is all that should matter when studying the lore, if MK had published c0da anonymously and not relied on his existing cult of personality to spread it, I think it would have gone largely ignored. I've never seen any c0da fan, by the way, actually say they LIKED the idea of gangsta rap, television set heads, etc., in TES. They just talk about things like what Landfall will be, or the wheels of Nirn. Essentially cherry-picking little bits of the story that stink a little less than the others. That's why I see a lot of worship of c0da as more than a little sycophantic.

Edit- all that being said, if you truly genuinely enjoy the story c0da brings to the table, more power to you. Far be it from me to dictate to others a particular vision of TES.

[legoless]

I kind of like the neo-Dwemer/Clockwork themes that MK's stuff deals with. A technological, space-based Fifth Era would be pretty cool if it was done right. The recent passing suggestion for a General:c0da page on the wiki was quite interesting. All that said, I don't personally like MK's works, past or present, and I don't know how he (or his fans) would react to the wiki hosting info of any kind on his sacred, timey-whimey sci-fi fanfic.

[awkwardjoke]

The plot is

MK: "I'm slowly becoming irrelevant because nothing I ever say is ever really important or canon.... what if I just release something and say "canon gone forever" maybe then people will listen again"

That's about it. MK is.... like my least favorite person at this point, because he has a cult following for no good reason.

Sounds like your C0DA is that C0DA doesn't exist.

[AKB]

The whole phrase C0DA annoys me, as it's just an obnoxious way to say "head canon", "fanon", or "fan fiction". Oh, and that freaking zero instead of an uppercase "O". It's mostly that which really makes me hate C0DA, actually.

[Minor Edits]

The whole phrase C0DA annoys me, as it's just an obnoxious way to say "head canon", "fanon", or "fan fiction". Oh, and that freaking zero instead of an uppercase "O". It's mostly that which really makes me hate C0DA, actually.

Absolutely. And every time I've seen someone try to distinguish it, all they end up doing is reaffirming this.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

C0DA is just Michael's way of tying up some of the loose ends he wanted to discuss during his time working on TES, and also to encourage creative folks like us not to obsess overly much over the idea of canon, which is good advice overall when it comes to TES Lore, since it's always been written from an in-universe perspective.

One of my favorite pieces of apocrypha associated with Bethesda and the Elder Scrolls is that back in the day, the devs claimed they actually had a portal to Tamriel in their basement, and had acquired a handful of Elder Scrolls. One went missing after being read once or twice. Another one is mysteriously broken or torn. The third is intact but lies more than half the time. All the stories and events we're privy to are mere interpretations of Prophecy, which is why retcons (transcription errors) and things like that happen.

If you view lore from this paradigm - which is honestly more interesting and dynamic than the obsession over some kind of canon from on-high - then C0DA is just another entertaining story. It's a "what-if". It takes place so far in a possibly alternate future that it contradicts nothing we're likely to encounter, so I choose to enjoy it for what it is rather than view it as some sort of attempt to "stay relevant" as some people tend to suggest. Trust me. Michael doesn't need any help staying relevant. His imprint on this series is deep and permanent. If he never contributed a single thing after Redguard, the series would have been changed forever.

[Jeancey]

What I don't understand is why people think he's had THAT big an effect on the series. He left Bethesda partway through the development of Morrowind. Yes, some of the more esoteric concepts in TES are from him, but 95% of all of the lore in the series has absolutely nothing to do with him. The main plot of all of the games (with the exception of Morrowind and Redguard) had zero input from him, and only like 45 of the hundreds (if not thousands) of books were written by him. 36/45 of those are from a single series. The ONLY reason he has had any sort of lasting impact because he has a following. That's pretty much it.

[Ilaro]

Khajiit on the moon is not that far fetched, there are possibly even temples build on Jode: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Online:The_Demi-Plane_of_Jode

I just wanted to point that out, even when I don't like C0DA and really don't know why Kirkbride is considered to be so special.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

What I don't understand is why people think he's had THAT big an effect on the series. He left Bethesda partway through the development of Morrowind. Yes, some of the more esoteric concepts in TES are from him, but 95% of all of the lore in the series has absolutely nothing to do with him. The main plot of all of the games (with the exception of Morrowind and Redguard) had zero input from him, and only like 45 of the hundreds (if not thousands) of books were written by him. 36/45 of those are from a single series. The ONLY reason he has had any sort of lasting impact because he has a following. That's pretty much it.

It seems like you have your mind made up, and aren't really looking for an answer, but I'll bite.

Arena and Daggerfall were very heavily influenced by a 2nd Edition Dungeons and Dragons homebrew campaign the Bethesda employees had been playing. Its lore and mechanics were very heavily derived from AD&D as a result. What little lore there was, of course. Ted Peterson and some of the original crew wrote some really decent histories and storylines for Daggerfall that still survive to this day. I'm particularly fond of Brief History of the Empire and the Real Barenziah.

Where MK, and Kurt Kuhlmann really left their mark was with this document. The Pocket Guide to the Empire. It shipped with Redguard, which is why I mention Redguard, because this was the moment that TES lore began to flesh out a lot and take on a less generic shape. Michael, Kurt and to some degree Todd Howard put this document together, and most of the new lore introduced in games since has built upon this, especially in Skyrim and ESO. The Pocket Guide is the foundation of post-1997 TES lore, and since Michael wrote over half of it, he's still indirectly contributing to the series through proxy of having locations, history and religious concepts he invented being reused. When you visit Stros M'Kai or pray to a shrine of Kyne or Tu'Whacca in ESO, that's pure MK. It would take a special level of disdain and willful ignorance to deny that. I know we can do better than that. You may personally find things about Michael or his writings to be not your style, but it's an objective falsehood that his contributions have diminished or are no longer being mined.

[Jeancey]

You actually help to prove my point. Kurt Kuhlmann, Ted Peterson, Todd Howard and the rest of the original crew help write these histories. I'm not saying that MK didn't do any writing at all, but he didn't do it alone. People seem to believe that he alone created the Elder Scrolls universe, when in reality he worked together with many other people and his overall contributions don't make up all that much by themselves. The stuff that is consensus purely from him is even smaller. I just don't see why people view him as the source of all knowledge when other people had just as much if not more impact on the world. The esoteric stuff I talked about is the consensus purely MK stuff. I wasn't trying to say he didn't write any other stuff other than that.

[legoless]

It might have been a collaborative effort, but the PGE really has defined the modern TES world. Kirkbride was also wholly responsible for this, a.k.a. the basis for every religion. You don't hear about "the Lady" or "the Rat-god" anymore, you hear Alduin and Y'ffre.

[Flinchel]

It's just fanfiction.

[SwagMaster]

It's just fanfiction.

With as much fanfiction TES fans write, it is a wonder they do not leave the nest and build their own worlds, which is what you would be doing to make TES remotely suited for a story.

[Rezalon]

"Remember that only things that have been published in Elder Scrolls games should be considered official lore." - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Fan_Interview_III

And

"Yes, we consider the Elder Scrolls novels canon to TES lore." - twitterDOTcom/dcdeacon/status/21951830233710592

Because of these two statements, which are said by higher-ups in BGS, I personally only believe that anything in the games (on the fence about ESO, Legends, and Travels as they are not developed by BGS), the two Greg Keyes books, and companion pieces (Pocket Guide to the Empire, game manuals, etc) are 100% canon.

Anything outside of the games, such as the Imperial Library out-of-game lore, fanfiction, C0DA (glorified fanfiction), the ESO out-of-game lore pieces (again, on the fence), demos/previews/trailers, and anything else out-of-game, shouldn't be considered as canon unless stated otherwise by BGS or if the lore appears in the games themselves.

If any pieces of lore from ESO, Legends, or Travels do appear in BGS-made TES games, then I will consider the game canon.

[Dark Spark]

It's just fanfiction.

With as much fanfiction TES fans write, it is a wonder they do not leave the nest and build their own worlds, which is what you would be doing to make TES remotely suited for a story.

Been there. Done that. The rules of magic divide mages into two kinds: covenant magic and ritual magic. Basically, power that is granted on demand versus power that is stolen piecemeal.

[Jeancey]

Because of these two statements, which are said by higher-ups in BGS, I personally only believe that anything in the games (on the fence about ESO, Legends, and Travels as they are not developed by BGS), the two Greg Keyes books, and companion pieces (Pocket Guide to the Empire, game manuals, etc) are 100% canon.

Anything outside of the games, such as the Imperial Library out-of-game lore, fanfiction, C0DA (glorified fanfiction), the ESO out-of-game lore pieces (again, on the fence), demos/previews/trailers, and anything else out-of-game, shouldn't be considered as canon unless stated otherwise by BGS or if the lore appears in the games themselves.

If any pieces of lore from ESO, Legends, or Travels do appear in BGS-made TES games, then I will consider the game canon.

ESO and Legends are canon. 100%. They are created by a subsidiary of Bethesda, yes, but it is the same company. The reason it is legally separate is for tax reasons involved with having a subscription based product. BGS has said numerous times that ESO is 100% canon. Anything published in the Elder Scrolls universe by Bethesda Softworks is as much a TES title as skyrim is.

[legoless]

[snip]

ESO and Legends are canon. 100%. They are created by a subsidiary of Bethesda, yes, but it is the same company. The reason it is legally separate is for tax reasons involved with having a subscription based product. BGS has said numerous times that ESO is 100% canon. Anything published in the Elder Scrolls universe by Bethesda Softworks is as much a TES title as skyrim is.

TES Travels: Shadowkey is similarly canon, and even had Todd Howard onboard as an advisor or something.