Which Gods are Real?

[legoless]

Talos is most certainly not the only holder of that particular honour.

[Niid Onikaan]

Wow. Basically, the answers I've gotten all amount to "I dunno." That's... actually pretty funny. I was expecting the people who know so much more than me to be able to give a straight answer, only to find out there is no straight answer!

If you want my belief, most anyone who has been claimed to be a god is a god in some aspect, with the very possibly exception of Talos, who may just be an aspect of Lorkhan.

It's all about interpretation and how everyone has a different one and can find arguments to back it. The first trick with TES lore is to only trust the loremasters so far because they eventually start speaking in riddles like Legoless above, who either was intentionally vague and unhelpful in the reply so as to appear mystical, or had a genuine reason for leaving such a short message.

“Havadad, Legolas.” I'm kidding, but such responses in TES Lore communities are common.

The second trick is reading enough books and obscure dev comments to be able to form an understanding deep enough to develop your own theory. Then you can argue and leave cryptic messages with all the rest

[IcarusBen]

Talos is most certainly not the only holder of that particular honour.

I know there are other aspects of Lorkhan (namely Lorkhaj, Shor, Sep, Shezzar) but I mean that everyone seems to separate the two in-game, so it's harder to know. However, he was a Shezzarine.

Also, I like thinking all the gods mentioned are gods in some aspect, because looking through the list of gods on UESP, I really want to let the god titled "the Mountain Fart" be real.

[Jeancey]

It is real. 100%. It is in ESO.

[BetaB17]

It is real. 100%. It is in ESO.

Do explain?

[Jeancey]

Varieties of Faith: Nords specifically says Mountain Fart.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Yep. One of many, many props ESO gives to Monkey Truth and to MK. Mauloch is indeed Mountain Fart.

And as for us not being able to give you a straight answer, that's one of the more beautiful things about TES Lore. Much of it's left up to personal interpretation, which is exactly why you see so much speculation and debate.

[Jeancey]

Actually, it's unlikely they intentionally were citing MK. We have it on the wiki, and we know that they have taken a lot of stuff from the wiki before. Several of the new ESO books are basically just summaries of our lore articles, and there was at least one thing that was blatantly false on one of our lore pages, but it was never caught, and it was added in ESO, making it canon. I find it much more likely that they got the name from the wiki. We got it from MK. One of the many, many reasons why I don't think any of MKs stuff should be used on the wiki. But that's a longer conversation that probably would get heated.

[IcarusBen]

Which false thing was that, I wonder...

Either way, Mountain Fart is a hilarious name for a god. TES VI, especially if it takes place in Hammerfell (or possibly both High Rock AND Hammerfell) needs to have a faction dedicated to Maulach, the Mountain Fart.

[Jeancey]

As I've said many times, odds are better that it'll be Summerset Isle.

[Minor Edits]

I try not to speculate too much on how exactly a fan assertion makes its way into the official lore. It's just as probable, if not moreso, that they got this particular tidbit from TIL or TESwiki, rather than UESP. But they could've found notes on Mountain Fart scrawled on a bar napkin tucked into an old lore cabinet, for all we know.

Hidden, because nonsensical off topic rant is nonsensical and off topic:

Spoiler:

I've seen a lot of fanon which I don't agree with. There are countless perceptions, concepts, and events which are commonly assumed by many fans, but which I don't think would make the game series better. And they are not exclusive to newer fans of the franchise, by any means; new and old fans alike lobby agendas which I think would mar TES. I don't think fans always fully consider the effect they may have with the desires they voice, and even just the assumptions they make. There are a lot of people shooting from the hip, so to speak, on a great variety of topics, and I worry the creators may get led astray and incorporate malignant elements into the franchise. I have seen brilliant franchises fall apart because the developers listened too much to casuals, and others stagnate because they were too concerned with the hardcore fans. TES is in danger of both. I love the community, but once in a while I'll see something that makes me want to shout "Get your filthy paws off my Elder Scrolls!" But I try to remember, the only reason anyone ever says crap in the first place is because they love the series, too.

Anyway, if I have reason to believe the devs consulted the UESP on something, I'm not any less concerned. While I would find it preferable for them to consult the UESP rather than relying on some other wiki, the idea actually scares me. It should scare the crap out of any conscientious UESP contributor! While we're not bad, relatively, the UESP is a far cry from error-free, and TES deserves nothing less than perfection, as far as I'm concerned. I've seen one or two instances where I suspect a mistake in one of the games is traceable to a mistake on the wiki. Just thinking about it makes me want to have a scotch, that's how much I hate the idea of a UESP error harming the games. The last thing any of us want to do is inadvertently harm that which we are trying to celebrate.

Anyway, I'm not entirely convinced that Mountain Fart was not official before ESO. As far as I can corroborate, it was not, but it's possible Mountain Fart may have been mentioned in some obscure bit of early lore which isn't readily accessible on the interwebs.

On the next game's setting: get your filthy paws away from my.... nevermind. I'll be happy with whatever, in the end. All I hope for is a good story and consistency. And if I simply can't have both, I guess I would take them in that order.

[Imbalance]

That is so, so funny. I remember seeing "Mountain Fart" years ago, assuming it had been the work of a vandal/jokester and that UESP admins would correct it. I see now that it apparently originated with the initial posting of Gods: M by Wrye back in 2005, and thus predates every other instance of the term that Google can conjure in relation to TES.

I'm not familiar with Monkey Truth, though I knew Wrye had a monkey theme. All very interesting and hilarious if that's how it went down.

[Mattbott]

Sheogorath with his walking cane and Europeanesq clothes of earlier incarnations (he went a bit psychedelic in SI) reminded me of a sort of plane hopping hero who is a Victorian gent in one universe but considered a god in another

I think the only real 'God' in TES Canon can be that which created the elder scrolls, all other beings are characters within their words. A handy metaphor for a fantasy game which suggests the developers are the gods of Tamreil, which is in a way, perfectly true

[Kerr]

Probably all of them. Certainly all the greater Daedra and Nine Divines exist. Quite a few gods are just different interpretations of the same being (see Alkosh/Akatosh/Auri-El,) really the question is which of them are true.

Saving Daedric Princes aren't gods seems pedantic to me. It would be like saying the Titans weren't gods and that only Olympian gods count. Different pantheons but both exist. And yes gods can have overlapping spheres of influence and have more than one. Athena and Ares were both gods of war. Aphrodite and Eros were both gods of love. It happens.

I like how people actually venerate multiple gods in TES. People worship the Nine Divines rather than just one of them, although some people do practice monolatrism. It's not like, for example, Forgotten Realms where there are tonnes of gods but everyone has to worship one or get turned into wallpaper for all eternity.

[IcarusBen]

Get turned into wallpaper?

Just what in Oblivion are the Forgotten Realms gods doing?

[Kerr]

Wall of the Faithless. If you don't worship any god your soul gets absorbed and become part of a giant wall made of the souls of others where you suffer forever. Doesn't matter how good of a person you are, don't worship a god, you go to the wall. It also means all children too young to pick a god to worship, anyone who just hasn't heard of the gods or anyone whos god dies before they do goes to the wall.

It's really screwed up, you'd think the 'good' gods would do something about it.

[BetaB17]

No, bc decor is more important than morality.

I gotta say though, it does kind of seems like a peeve when ppl mostly worship multiple gods.. Yet disregard obvious entities like the Daedra, et'ada, and primordials to not qualify as gods or worthy to be in a pantheon. I'm sorry... But Dagon is just as much of a god as Mara, if not more

[IcarusBen]

Most people see the Daedra as godlike or just evil gods. As to why they don't put them into a pantheon, I bring you henotheism; worship of one, belief in many. They believe the Daedra are real, but wouldn't dare to let themselves worship them.

The main reason the Thalmor don't qualify Talos as a god is because they don't believe men are capable enough to ascend into godhood, so the existence of Talos defies everything they believe.

[Trelares]

The main reason the Thalmor don't qualify Talos as a god is because they don't believe men are capable enough to ascend into godhood, so the existence of Talos defies everything they believe.

Isn't that a bit shortsighted though?
Talos was a dragonborn meaning he is linked to the godly essence of Akatosh, furthermore he likely had some ties with Lorkhan (maybe even was a Shezzarine). So if you are "blessed" by two gods then one at least could you consider a demi-god. Going from there it doesn't seem all that impossible to become a full higher being. Also there is the point that an immortal being somehow seems to be able to get power from being revered.

[BetaB17]

Its not that simple. Many elves believe, or rather used to in some cases, men to be no more than beasts. Hence to why they typically frown upon acts against fellow elves... but man is fair game for slavery and the worst. When you think it through, why should you acknowledge a man turned god when initially you see them beneath you, it's an insult per say. However it is hypocritical seeing as even in Altmer society they worship some individuals to the point of godhood despite just being above average individuals at what they did best, that or taught everyone how to walk better<_< I'm looking at you Phynaster.

Many of these mortals are without a doubt real, most were of great power which even non-believers must admit, however the question on each of their 'divinity' is controversial. In Talos' case, it's never been a question of might, or his link to Lorkhan(those that comprise Talos are some of the few confirmed by a developer), but whether he defines as a god much like the other Divines.. be it that he mantled the role or stole/gifted with the divinity as some believe.

[IcarusBen]

The Elves are a little iffy as to Lorkhan's divinity, too. They see him as a devil and a demon. Do Christians call the Devil a god? No. The same applies to Altmer and Lorkhan.

Plus, the Altmer don't believe in the dragon god interpretation of Akatosh, but rather the eagle god interpretation of Auriel. Now, if Talos were Eagleborn, that'd be a different story.

Also, I believe Phynaster's teaching the Altmer to walk better was a metaphor for teaching them how to live longer, but I could be wrong and it's just him teaching them the runway walk.

"Okay, now, follow me. Step, and step, and step, and step, and bam, and pow, and step, and bam, and bam, and step and pow."

[BetaB17]

Actually, despite their cursing, Lorkhan is a member of their Pantheon. While they may not worship or respect him(for the most part), he is still responsible for the mortal realm.. And thus an 'Aedra'

[Guadeloupe]

What of Sai? Also, is King Edward canon, cause it was only in daggerfall.

[AKB]

King Edward is a historical novel within Daggerfall, so it can be a bit tricky to determine its place in the setting. The original author wrote this about it:

Taken from Imperial Library

Glad you enjoyed the King Edward books. I'm afraid you've read all there is of them. That series, like many of the Daggerfall books, was written by one of the beta testers (me, in this instance) before there was any Daggerfall to test. (I was one of a group of testers left over from the post release effort to debug Arena.) Once Daggerfall testing got underway Ted Peterson asked me to write the Queen Barenziah series. Between that and testing I was too busy to do more with Edward & co. With Daggerfall's release the books became the property of Bethesda Softworks. These books should be regarded as historical novels, not official lore or history.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Some concepts, places and people from King Edward are actually mentioned outside of those books as well, which blurs the lines between fantasy and "reality" (in-universe). I'd place it in the same category as the 2920 books, but it's more fantasy and less history. Or, it could be a holdover story from an Adjacent Place or previous Kalpa, as both these concepts are official lore and do affect the stories from time to time.