The Simplification of the Series, when do you give up?

[Leckan]

I haven't played the other ES games, but I found Skyrim to be plenty complex.

It could have had a little more depth in some areas, but honestly, I hate it when games are too complex.

[Unionhack]

Oh hey, this thread is still going.

They're all complex in different ways and some people like some of the games more than the others. It's a personal preference thing.

The negativity that this thread insinuates is just kinda... I dunno, a downer.

[AKB]

I find this thread pretty hilarious, actually. When one side is arguing insane things like "WOULD YOU PLAY THE SERIES IF IT WAS HALO WITH AN ALTMER BEING MASTER CHIEF" while the majority of users just barely avoid saying how peculiar everything they've said has been, I enjoy the result.

But do we really still need to be talking about this?

[Unionhack]

It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth everytime I see it in the New Posts search. XP No discussion has been as done to death as the silly simplification argument.

[Drekinn]

I'll probably earn a contract by the Black Sacrament but oh well.

I'm a new fan to the series. A few months at least but I do know the basic lore. However I'm not a fan of concepts such as CHIM, c0da, psijic endeavor etc. I think they are too complicated for the sake of it and mean nothing in the long run. The mantling concept is a bit interesting though. I find it more fun to pretend these are in-universe concepts made up by scholars similar to how we in real life come up with all sorts of philosophical stuff about existence, meaning of life, the universe itself etc. It's all cool, but shouldn't look really, really, really deep into it.
So yeah, I'm one of those casuals who ruin all your favorite games. Where are your divines now?!

[logansrun]

No, the real problem is that the fan boys base simply can’t bring themselves to admit an honest truth, and that is the FACT that the series has been “simplified”, to include the catch phrase used in the very title so I won’t be unceremoniously accused of being “off topic”, etc.

Sorry, yes, that is a simple fact, and it is a demonstrable one at that. You can argue about how “gross” or “hideous” the graphics were in the older games like Morrowind, which is to be expected but almost no other game since has made such significant contributions to lore, etc.

Then there’s the demonstration of the various attributes, skills, weapons and armor selections, spells, spell effects and components, spell making, enchanting, etc. It’s pretty easy to see how they’ve nerfed the various aspects. All one need do is be willing to actually look and be honest with themselves regarding the obvious.

We’ve gone from having 4 armor skills to 2, 6 weapon skills to 3. As a matter of fact, we went from 27 skills in Morrowind to 21 in Oblivion, to 18 in Skyrim. We’ve gone from 8 primary attributes to 3. We went from 8 schools of magic to 6. Enchanting got nerfed and spell making got axed completely.

Hell, even the creatures got nerfed. Most of the Daedra except Atronach and Dremora are a distant memory, unless you run across a book about them (introduced in Morrowind). Oblivion did away with the likes of the Hunger and Winged Twilight, while the Golden Saint was only to be found as an afterthought in an expansion pack (their function replaced by the Xivilai, which haven’t been heard from before or since), whilst Skyrim has done away with most of the rest including the Clannfear, Daedroth and Scamp. So we went from 11 basic types of Daedra in Morrowind to 8 in Oblivion to 4 in Skyrim.

That all adds up to look like “simplification” to me, so tell me again how “silly” the argument is considering it’s reasonably demonstrable, and all one has to do is look and compare pretty much any aspect of the three games.

[Linkuya]

Something I've always found strange is how people are so quick to bring up getting rid of features, but rarely does anyone mention all the things the newer games add. You can do so much more in games like Skyrim than Morrowind for example, from the crafting system, blacksmithing, cooking, etc. Example, the guy above me mentioning all the creatures that aren't in the newer games, yet not mentioning all the new creatures added to it. Arguments based off those points are incredibly biased if you ask me.

[logansrun]

Arguments based off those points are incredibly biased if you ask me.

… Except they’re really not and that’s a bit on the slanderous side to make such an accusation without supporting it. They’re actually quite on point. Stating the newer games added content to replace what was lost without citing any actual examples is sheer propaganda.

Crafting? That’s it? Considering all the items you can craft already exist in-game, I could just as easily point out that such content is merely distraction-based filler, just like cooking. It adds little, if anything, substantive to the game, and technically speaking “blacksmithing” existed in the older games in the form of “Armorer” and has merely evolved into it’s current form.

That doesn’t address any of what was actually lost. It’s a red herring and straw man argument meant to divert attention away form the specific points I raised, which were completely dodged and failed to address. What about spell-making? What about the lost spell effects? What about the limitations imposed on enchanting?

The only thing I can really point to that they brought to the table was the ability to dual-wield, which as has been pointed out repeatedly to such rebuttals, could have been added and implemented regardless. To point out what was added could have been added regardless and does nothing to address what was lost or stripped from the games.

Ok, great, I get to dual wield now. I could have done that anyway. Now, why can’t I Mark or Recall? Why can’t I cast Almsivi or Divine Intervention? Why can’t I Detect Enchantments? Why can’t I Levitate? Why can’t I Water Walk without an item added by an expansion? Why can’t I use a spear or a thrown weapon like knives or stars? Why can’t I find a crossbow without an expansion pack? They were in the older base game.

You never actually addressed or answered that fundamental question. Why did they feel the need to strip out all this content? It speaks directly to the point that they did, indeed, “simplify” the series.

Edit:

Actually, I’ll even take that a step farther and point out the criticisms of “crafting” that have been leveled and how it detracts from the very essence and “spirit” of fantasy-based, leveling-through-questing styled RPGs and how it takes the focus off the questing.

What motivation or need has the hero now to quest to find the legendary item and overcome the related obstacles set before him/her by fate to overthrow some treacherous evil that has befallen them, their land or their loved ones when they can simply kill an @$$load of wolves and grind their crafting skill to make such weapon for themselves?

Of course, I could almost level the same criticism at the likes of Morrowind given the enchanting and spell-making options, but the bottom line is there was a lot of ingenuity and legwork involved even in that process of making some uber-powerful item or spell, and nothing you could craft could substitute for Keening and Sunder. You still had to fulfill that part of the MQ and you had several unique relics at your disposal at the end of the journey.

It’s true that Skyrim implemented unique content to the same effect with Shouts and all, the main difference being that at the end of Morrowind, you, as the Nerevarine possess the fabled Artifacts and Relics of the past while in Skyrim, as the Last Dragonborn, are an artifact and relic of the past with the power to defeat the “ultimate evil”.

You've gone from playing Odysseus to taking on the role of Zeus.

[Linkuya]

"Stating the newer games added content to replace what was lost without citing any actual examples is sheer propaganda."

I literally just did. Example, the depth Skyrim has shown with the interactivity with the world (like I said before, from marriage, adopting kids, weapon crafting, making your own armor, not just mindlessly clicking the repair button in previous games, etc) where you don't actually have to actively go adventuring to progress in the game. That itself was a new playstyle the game introduced, if you tried to play Morrowind passively without playing as the typical adventurer looting dungeons you'd never progress and level up whereas in Skyrim you would. That's an instance of the game's depth that's I'm talking about, it's added features and ways to play the game as it's taken out other features, like the climbing skill for example. You couldn't do something you could before, but it's not as though it's been stripped and not replaced by anything else. Some other form of content will naturally replace it. Like your rather nonsensical comments about why every kind of daedra and enemy in Morrowind isn't in Skyrim. Skyrim isn't Morrowind, it's a completely different setting. And more importantly, it's not the same game. If you want Elder Scrolls sequels to be carbon copies of the other games then you'd probably be better off actually only playing Morrowind. I for one am happy they don't recycle the same enemies over and over in the series, that would just be bad game design.

"Now, why can’t I Mark or Recall?"

Does that really make or break an Elder Scrolls game? Is the core Elder Scrolls experience ruined for you? Times change. Game series never stay the same, they evolve over time, if you really wanted Skyrim to be so incredibly similar to Morrowind, just play Morrowind. Imagine if the Zelda series remained the exact same, game after game after game. It would get horribly old horribly quickly.

"Why can’t I cast Almsivi or Divine Intervention? "

"Why can’t I Detect Enchantments?"

Again, the more I'm reading this the more I'm wondering why you aren't just playing Morrowind. It sounds like the features that game had were far too integral to the Elder Scrolls experience for you. The series has changed over time, obviously. Each game focuses on something else, and I feel as though Skyrim has taken the features of the other games and blended them together well enough to keep the game at a nice complexity without over simplifying it. That being said, I'm not going to carry on this conversation with you because you're reminding me too much of those fanatic Morrowind fans that just write off everything non Morrowind as awful. I'm not going to change your opinion, nor do I wish to, this just my two cents. Cheers.

Spoiler:

inb4 I'm a casual idiot that ruined the series

[logansrun]

Stating the newer games added content to replace what was lost without citing any actual examples is sheer propaganda."

I literally just did. Example, the depth Skyrim has shown with the interactivity with the world (like I said before, from marriage, adopting kids,

Added by expansion, not core elements and again doesn’t address or speak to anything I said. All those additions could have been made regardless, and many I don’t waste time with because they’re just mindless filler.

weapon crafting, making your own armor, not just mindlessly clicking the repair button in previous games, etc) where you don't actually have to actively go adventuring to progress in the game.

Again, I already addressed this as well.

That itself was a new playstyle the game introduced, if you tried to play Morrowind passively without playing as the typical adventurer looting dungeons you'd never progress and level up whereas in Skyrim you would.

So crafting constitutes a “playstyle” now?

That's an instance of the game's depth that's I'm talking about, it's added features and ways to play the game as it's taken out other features, like the climbing skill for example. You couldn't do something you could before, but it's not as though it's been stripped and not replaced by anything else.

No, now you can trip over a ribcage and die.

Some other form of content will naturally replace it. Like your rather nonsensical comments about why every kind of daedra and enemy in Morrowind isn't in Skyrim. Skyrim isn't Morrowind, it's a completely different setting. And more importantly, it's not the same game. If you want Elder Scrolls sequels to be carbon copies of the other games then you'd probably be better off actually only playing Morrowind. I for one am happy they don't recycle the same enemies over and over in the series, that would just be bad game design.

Hate to break this to you, but yes, the Daedra and their interactions with mortals, their plots and schemes, have been a main plot device and staple of every game in the TES series prior to Skyrim since it began.

"Now, why can’t I Mark or Recall?"

Does that really make or break an Elder Scrolls game? Is the core Elder Scrolls experience ruined for you? Times change. Game series never stay the same, they evolve over time, if you really wanted Skyrim to be so incredibly similar to Morrowind, just play Morrowind. Imagine if the Zelda series remained the exact same, game after game after game. It would get horribly old horribly quickly.

"Why can’t I cast Almsivi or Divine Intervention? "

"Why can’t I Detect Enchantments?"

Again, the more I'm reading this the more I'm wondering why you aren't just playing Morrowind. It sounds like the features that game had were far too integral to the Elder Scrolls experience for you. The series has changed over time, obviously. Each game focuses on something else, and I feel as though Skyrim has taken the features of the other games and blended them together well enough to keep the game at a nice complexity without over simplifying it. That being said, I'm not going to carry on this conversation with you because you're reminding me too much of those fanatic Morrowind fans that just write off everything non Morrowind as awful. I'm not going to change your opinion, nor do I wish to, this just my two cents. Cheers.

Spoiler:

inb4 I'm a casual idiot that ruined the series

Then you would be wrong, again. I play Skyrim. I actually like Skyrim, and I played and enjoyed Oblivion as well, but that doesn’t change the fact it has gotten easier and simpler to play or that the newer games tend to hold your hand a lot more than the older ones did.

Yes, I do miss parts of the older games. Yes, I do miss having to think and use my brain. Yes, I do miss feeling lost out in the wilderness without quest markers telling me precisely where my objective is and yes, I’m quite aware that I can disable that “feature”, but that’s not specifically all that I’m talking about or referring to either so let’s not get hung up or fixate on just that. Yes, I miss the challenges, options and variety that the older games brought to the table.

Oblivion was fun in its own right, and so is Skyrim, but yes, I also recognize the fact that there’s a lot missing. You still haven’t addressed the fact that you’re argument didn’t hold water, in and of itself. It fails to stand on its own merit based simply on the fact that it fails to address my point of contention. No matter what they add or bring to the table, that doesn’t address what was lost.

Edit:

I’d also say the fact that you not only claim to be the type of casual gamer that they pander to now as having ruined the series, but brag about it, speaks directly to the point that they have, in fact, simplified the series to give it a broader appeal to a larger base for market share reasons.

It also speaks directly to the fact that to appeal to a broader and larger base, it must inherently be easier to account for the natural bell-curve effect of population versus intelligence that Sir Francis Galton described as a "reversion towards mediocrity” in social structures.

[Linkuya]

I’d also say the fact that you not only claim to be the type of casual gamer that they pander to now as having ruined the series, but brag about it, speaks directly to the point that they have, in fact, simplified the series to give it a broader appeal to a larger base for market share reasons.

Umm... wat

It was a joke. Chill out. You were doing the whole Skyrim ruined my childhood song and dance, hence my spoiler'd comment about how people like that tend to say the whole 'arrr you filthy casual scum ruined my perfect hardcore real nerd experience!!!'

IN ANY CASE your opinion is wonderful and I'm so glad you shared it with me today, however it's probably best to just agree to disagree.

[Unionhack]

What have I done? .-.

[logansrun]

Opinions aside, the “simplification of the series” is a fact considering what direction it’s gone along with the observation that it’s now more popular than ever, which is never a favorable indicator of something requiring any legitimate discipline or significant skill.

[Unionhack]

I can't believe I'm seriously posting in what I think is the worst topic on these forums but I'm going to anyway, keeping it nice and quick.

Simplification isn't inherently good or bad.

I'm totally fine with what Skyrim did. I didn't care for Morrowind after one playthough. It didn't age well. There, I said it.

My biggest quip is with, of course, the battle system. In Morrowind, you can thrust your blade in a guy's face, but that doesn't mean you hit him. No. With the gameplay becoming very much an action RPG once Morrowind came around, this just doesn't work. In a game that plays like an MMO or a turn based RPG, it's fine. You're not directly controlling your character's every move in those cases. When my axe hits the dragon in the foot, he needs to take damage.

Skyrim has the finest combat in the series in my opinion. It's more than what Morrowind was; buff, swing wildly, loot. It's more than what Oblivion was; Block, hit, block it. Nah, there's this sense about it that makes it feel natural when I kill things in Skyrim. Simplification in this sense isn't a bad thing. And in a game about taking down a Daedric Lord, or a [&@%!] off Demigod, or a dragon, combat should be damn good. It's what you're going to be spending a good majority of your time doing.

Simplification is subjective. Simplification being good or bad is subjective. Don't label things as fact when they're subjective.

The negativity that this thread insinuates is depressing. I like Skyrim. I like a lot of the changes. It's a fun game. That's all I want.

[logansrun]

I agree. Skyrim is a fun game, in its own right, or else I wouldn't bother playing it. Rather my post was intended to get the thread back on topic rather than being smeared by a mudslinging campaign mounted by those that can't bear criticism. The "simplification of the series" in the title wasn't the question posed by the OP. It was a given position and statement by the OP which has been repeatedly attacked and called into question, which is off topic. The question was "when do you give up"?

My answer to that would be that I'm not entirely sure. As long as there's an open world to explore and adventures to be found I'll probably remain willing to indulge its indiscretions. I'm not particularly happy about the major overhaul and revisions to the magic system given that magic is my preferred playstyle, but I've learned to adapt in the past and I'll probably continue to do so and still enjoy the game. I do have to admit I miss a lot of spells ... and my golden saints.

[AKB]

Alright, we're done with this petty nonsense.

[AKB]

Unlocked? See the last page of this thread? Please take that as an example of how these conversations shouldn't go.

[Nord85]

Maybe I shouldn't post in this thread, but I'll give my two cents anyway, since this is a topic I've also thought about. The answer is: I'll only give up on the series if they put things like auto-aim in (although, there's already a mild aiming aid present, which thankfully can be disabled in the .ini file) or insult my intelligence otherwise even more than Skyrim. Don't take this the wrong way, I absolutely love the game, but at times it feels like it's designed for complete idiots. I'll put up with that because there is enough more sophisticated content, too, like lore books and some conversations subtly or not-so-subtly point towards some pretty deep questions. If Beth will remove these in order not to bore the lowest common denominator player, I won't play the series anymore. Also not, if they drop the open-world concept in favour of linearity. These things, however, are not at all likely IMO, as especially the open world is the basis for the whole TES concept.

As for game mechanics, they also can't be simplified or reduced any more without me getting ticked off. Granted, TES games are action-RPGs at heart, but Skyrim is already nearing the line where the franchise becomes a mere action game. That being said, Skyrim still is fine in that regard. The mechanics are complex enough to allow unique character builds, but not so complex as to get in the way of adventuring and having fun. Oblivion's and especially Daggerfall and Morrowind's mechanics were a whole lot clumsier in comparison, even to the point where I didn't bother to play mages in the latter two simply because it was such a bother. Skyrim is easier, yes, but that's actually a good thing. You see, "complexity" doesn't always equal "better".

All in all, I don't think TES VI will be more simplified than Skyrim, on the contrary. The skill and magic system are so streamlined already that they won't need more of that. Besides, Bethesda introduced some new mechanics in Skyrim, such as smithing and mounted combat, that are still rather rudimentary in that game. It is quite likely that they will be honed and expanded in the next installment. It's like the NPC schedules and their reactions to happenings in the environment. Those were already in Oblivion, but Skyrim honed them to a more believable and working form. No reason why TES VI couldn't do the same for crafting, marriage etc.

Also, when looking at the thing along these lines, we might even see some spell effects or even spellmaking returning. It is to be remembered that the magic system underwent a serious overhaul in Skyrim compared to previous games. So much that I'd see it as a new mechanic comparable to the afore-mentioned ones. Now that Bethesda knows the basic principles work quite well, what prevents them from expanding from that basis? They only need to tweak Skyrim's system a little for the new game, so development resources can be used for making new spell effects and perhaps finding a satisfactory way to implement spellmaking.

Well, that's how I see this topic anyway.

[spin]

I can't believe I read the whole thing.....

[Starfang]

Oblivion is almost 10 years old and is vastly more enjoyable and entertaining than Dragon Age Inquisition in my opinion, which I've already given up on 3 times now out of sheer boredom.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I do love me some Oblivion. I put more hours into it than either Morrowind or Skyrim, which I both love. I'll give good arguments in return to anyone who tries to tell me Oblivion is the ugly duckling of the series.

[Rajhma]

..they’re just mindless filler.

So crafting constitutes a “playstyle” now?

I'm actually rather offended by these statements, and it's pretty hard to offend me. To dismiss things that add a lot to my roleplaying experience as just "mindless filler" is a direct slap in the face of both myself as well as a substantial portion TES fans. The way I play would not be considered mindless nor casual by any stretch of the imagination.

Besides, Bethesda introduced some new mechanics in Skyrim, such as smithing and mounted combat, that are still rather rudimentary in that game. It is quite likely that they will be honed and expanded in the next installment. It's like the NPC schedules and their reactions to happenings in the environment. Those were already in Oblivion, but Skyrim honed them to a more believable and working form. No reason why TES VI couldn't do the same for crafting, marriage etc.

Also, when looking at the thing along these lines, we might even see some spell effects or even spellmaking returning. It is to be remembered that the magic system underwent a serious overhaul in Skyrim compared to previous games. So much that I'd see it as a new mechanic comparable to the afore-mentioned ones. Now that Bethesda knows the basic principles work quite well, what prevents them from expanding from that basis? They only need to tweak Skyrim's system a little for the new game, so development resources can be used for making new spell effects and perhaps finding a satisfactory way to implement spellmaking.

This. Exactly this. To start from scratch on so many things eats up a ton of time. Some things simply got cut due to time constraints. There is no reason to not expect the further expansion of these features in the future games since many of the changes were in fact a success. Despite the fact that some of the new systems are a bit rudimentary, the mechanics are fine, they just need more tweaking and polish with some more variety and complexity added back in. Of course, this is all based on the assumption that the developers are actually not a bunch of evil money-grabbing jerks. That said, I'll be the first to eat my words if I'm wrong. You betcha.

But as far as the OP question is concerned, the things that will send me packing have nothing to do with "simplification" and all those absurd suggestions of possible simplification are just that, absurd. I'd bet my pants that those things will never happen, and it seems to me like you're desperately grasping at straws to suggest they could.

My "it's not me it's you" moments would be:
1. Microtransactions or any other nickel-and-dime bs.
2. For the developers to actually stop listening to their fans. Despite the allegations to the contrary I see absolutely no evidence that they have done this. None.
3. For the developers to lose their passion for TES. Again, this just has not happened.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Despite its MMO skeleton, I really like some of the directions ESO has gone in on expanding the things I liked about Skyrim. I wouldn't mind at all if the more in-depth crafting system made its way into subsequent ES games. I also love that most of the world dungeons have their own internal lore/stories, as well as the "world boss" type monsters being tied into stories as well, rather than being big HP/treasure sacks out in the world. Some of these boss fights and dungeons were more fun and engaging than those from Skyrim, for me at least. ZOS has some decent fantasy writers and world builders among their ranks. The more complex way that enchanting is handled in that game as opposed to simply leveling your skill by making 1,000 weak rings also has more of a roleplaying and exploration aspect to it.

[Rajhma]

Hmm, you know I've yet to check out ESO. I'm not really a fan of MMO's much as I dislike the grindy nature of playing them. But if the stories and world are worth it I might be interested. How's your experience of ESO's community been?

[The Dread Lord]

If the next game is as glitchy as skyrim I'll give up. I'll take adding guns over not being able to play the game because of glitches any day.