Minor Kingdoms of the Third Era?

Texafornian · Post by **Texafornian** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 6:19 pm

I'm trying to improve a Elder Scrolls mod for a separate game that's set between the events of the Warp in the West and just after Oblivion. Rather than have the generic faction provinces of "Cyrodil, Hammerfell, High Rock, etc.," I've been trying to focus on the actual political situation of the time period which seems to be, at its most basic level, a hegemonic power (Septim Empire) surrounded by a lot of quasi-autonomous kingdoms (and other factions). Here's what I have so far ("Kingdom" is just a placeholder in most cases):

Spoiler:

I picked up most of these entities from the "Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Era" where it mentions specific city-states like Elinhir, Taneth, Lillandril, etc. I'm unsure about Skyrim, however, because it states that Solitude and Winterhold are rivals and are both expanding their lands, yet other sources claim that there's always a High King of Skyrim, thus implying that the region is unified. There doesn't seem to be any established lore on the presence of a High King during the late 3rd Era, so I'm inclined to leave the two kingdoms independent.

So... am I missing any important factions? Should Solitude and Winterhold be consolidated into "Skyrim"?

Minor Edits · Post by **Minor Edits** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:07 pm

Is this before or after the Void Nights?

Texafornian · Post by **Texafornian** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 7:14 pm

Minor Edits wrote:Is this before or after the Void Nights?

Before. It's basically set between 3E 418 and 3E 434. Looking back at the list, I now realize that including "Kingdom of Pelletine" & "Kingdom of Anequina" rather than "Elsweyr Confederacy" might have made this somewhat confusing/incorrect--I'll look into potentially merging those two factions.

Minor Edits · Post by **Minor Edits** » Fri Mar 20, 2015 10:41 pm

This is a very involved topic, so forgive me if I don't cover everything right off the bat.

Morrowind is especially complicated because you have a lot of different institutions with degrees of power, and the Empire has an added, redundant layer of governance under King Athyn Llethan of House Hlaalu. So, at the top, you theoretically have the Emperor - except Morrowind is largely autonomous under the terms of the Armistice. Llethan, up until his death/murder circa 3E 426-7, was a complete figurehead. His replacement, Hlaalu Helseth, much less so.

For much of 3E 418-4E 0, the authority over Morrowind rested with the Tribunal - i.e, the Tribunal Temple, i.e., House Indoril. Then beneath them are the Great Houses. The Indoril are like the cops in a city full of gangs. From one perspective, they're just another gang - but they're the gang every other gang has to contend with, and you don't wanna be in their sights. It had been that way since post-Battle of Red Mountain, as far as I know. But House Hlaalu was gaining on Indoril during this time due to their close relationship with the Empire (which was fostered by Uriel VII since before the events of Arena). After the events of Morrowind, Helseth clearly filled the power vacuum, and flexed his new muscle and political acumen by outlawing slavery.

In the year or so following the Oblivion Crisis, however, Helseth and House Hlaalu will be seeing at least the beginning of a fierce backlash. The Empire, and thus House Hlaalu, were being seen as traitors due to the Imperial Legion's abandonment of much of Morrowind (or at least, that's how Redoran history records it).

Then, outside of all of this, you have the disunited Ashlanders, each with their own Ashkhans (as well as Wise Women).

So ... that's Morrowind.

Skyrim is easy- Emperor, High King in Solitude, Jarls. They're likely relatively united at this point in history- besides a witch in Whiterun and persistent necromancer troubles.

A big problem with making deductions in some of these other areas is that there's a good chance the Empire has their parallel governmental structure attached to the existing system. Many provinces (in troubled times, at the very least) have a Military Governor appointed by the Emperor. This Governor could serve to make the Emperor's vassal a complete figurehead. Or, as was the case with Morrowind, the Empire's representative could be the figurehead, with some other native political (or criminal) organization holding the real power. How the Empire classifies and considers things might be substantially different than how they are in "reality".

ESO has a lot of new lore on the Bosmer. In particular, this one might give you a better understanding of their political structure. But that's all I got time for today.

talk page · Post by **legoless** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:00 am

Black Marsh doesn't have a true political structure. As you've said, the majority of it is ruled by separate tribes, although at times large areas have fallen under the direct control of the Empire or the Dres. During your time period, Black Marsh is de jure ruled by the King of Argonia and the Shadowscales, although in truth the province is controlled by the Hist "hivemind", which extends far beyond its geographical borders. However, just a few years after your time period, the An-Xileel established itself as a formal political party to replace the Imperial government following Black Marsh's secession from the Third Empire, and as far as I remember it communes directly with the Hist.

Texafornian · Post by **Texafornian** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 2:24 am

Thanks for the responses.

The concept of "House" Indoril has given me some trouble. I saw it as the Temple's "enforcer" arm when I started playing Morrowind, but then you learn from the main storyline that it was (is?) one of the Great Houses. Also, the UESP page states that it still exists during the events of this time period (albeit in a severely weakened state) on the mainland with holdings stretching from Mournhold to Necrom.

Due to the nature of the mod, it's difficult to represent the true political structure of Tamriel during this time. I'd like to show the Emperor -> Provincial Governor/King -> Local Government hierarchy, but I'm basically limited to including "independent" factions and then tying them together with preset diplomatic relations, hence my tendency towards including sub-kingdoms/city-states rather than overall provinces. Thus, the And--this isn't completely lore-friendly--I think there's some fun to be had in taking a small social/economic/political entity (Pelletine, for example )and possibly growing it out of its province (Elsweyr).

Valenwood and Black Marsh are definitely oddballs in this setup as they should each in reality be numerous separate self-governing entities; the problem is that the code limits the number of possible factions so I felt forced to go with the lesser of two evils--consolidating both into "tribal council" factions--rather than leaving them out entirely. That piece about the King of Argonia could sweeten the pill for Black Marsh at least.

Dark Spark · Post by **Dark Spark** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 4:57 am

Isn't Hammerfell between the Crown cities and the Forebearers?

In Cyrodiil, you could draw a line between Nibenay and Colovia.

Pilaf The Defiler · Post by **Pilaf The Defiler** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 5:57 am

The Crown/Forebear split is always there, but it's more or less of an open wound depending on what year we're talking about.

Here's an exert from the Third Pocket Guide that takes place pretty close to the years the OP is thinking of:

The division in Hammerfell society was not mended by joining the Empire, even to this day. In general, northern Hammerfell continued to be more traditionally Yokudan, in style, dress, and personality, and the southern lands, where the Forebears landed, tended to be more cosmopolitan; but, in truth, Hammerfell was and is a patchwork, with conflicting traditions nestled side by side. It is for this reason that Elinhir, a Crown city, did not answer the clarion call of Forebear cities Rihad and Taneth, in the 253rd year of the 3rd Era, allowing the Camoran Usurper to continue his northward march. In return, the Forebear cities did not assist the eastern Crown cities during the War of Bend'r-Mahk against Skyrim, preferring to watch as they were overtaken by the Nords.

As for the Cyrodiilics:

The Imperial Province has continued to be the stable heart of the Empire, offering a model to its satellites of a government that settles disputes by diplomacy, not force of arms. The recent marriage of Lady Alessia, daughter of the Countess of Chorrol, to Count Marius Caro of Leyawiin typifies this, a perfect blend of love and sound political judgement.

The implication is that late in the Third Era, the old split between East and West is far less severe, and less likely to play into politics or interpersonal relationships.

Texafornian · Post by **Texafornian** » Sat Mar 21, 2015 6:11 am

Yeah, I was under the impression that the province of Cyrodiil (the land directly controlled by the "Septim Empire" in the mod) is strongly unified, probably due in part to the fact that it's the "core" of the empire.

Due to mod limitations and other considerations, it seemed easier to put Sentinel, Taneth, and Elinhir in as independent kingdoms with lore explaining their Crown/Forebear backgrounds rather than actually include the Crowns and Forebears. This excerpt--which talks about Taneth and Elinhir--comes later in the Third Pocket Guide and, though it's unclear as to specific years, it apparently takes place very soon after the Warp in the West (3E 417):
Perhaps not surprisingly, the moderate Lhotunics have attracted nothing but contempt from the Crown and Forebear kingdoms alike. Clavilla, the Queen of Taneth, has tried without success to have the charters of the independent guilds revoked from all Sentinel lands, saying that the accepted worship of Satakal is grounds enough for heresy against the Empire. Ayaan-si, High Prophet of Elinhir, has called upon the True Crowns of the north to rebel against Lhotun, and financed a number of forays against the borders in Bergama and Dak'fron. His one success, thus far, has been significant. The land of Totambu, named in ancient days after Na-Totambu of Yokuda, the progenitors of the Crowns, has returned to his fold and declared independence from Sentinel. As Lhotun's kingdom surrounds Totambu on all four sides, it is questionable how much longer it can assert itself, but at the time of this writing, its people are holding their resistance.

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