Ulfric's Duel

[Sirocco]

I just had an interesting conversation with Ahtar in solitude. I asked him about his next execution, and he shared an interesting thought with me. He told me that "Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive."
Surprise, it seems racism isnt a nord, ulfric, or stormcloack thing in skyrim. As a matter of fact the imperials and their collaborators are just as racist [&@%!], from the late Torygg the lame to the common imperial legionary.
By the way, anybody ever seen an argonian or khajit legionary?

[MidbossVyers]

Not in Skyrim, but an Argonian Legionnaire was mentioned in Morrowind. As for Khajiit Legionnaires, as I said, both sides kinda treat Khajiit in the same way. That's why my Khajiit ended up joining the Stormcloaks. Also, because of this image: http://ledius.deviantart.com/art/Khajii ... -287271300

[MetaCthulhu]

The way Ulfric sees it is that he legally challenged a nordic ruler of a nordic country in the old nordic way.
The way the empire sees it is that Ulfric killed a imperial subject in an imperial province, which is illegal under imperial law.
In reply to Sirocco: I think Ahtar was talking about Jar-ree

Spoiler:

a bandit leader who tries to convince anyone who walks by to help him slaughter an entire ship's crew

so that one might be justified. As far as Torygg, he was a Nord whose opinion wasn't much different than Ulfric's. I believe the reason you don't see any Argonian or Khajit legionary is because the Aldmeri Dominion is trying to weaken the nordic and imperial armies rather than its own forces; after all the Khajits joined the Dominion during the Great War and the Argonians aren't under imperial rule.

[Sirocco]

The way Ulfric sees it is that he legally challenged a nordic ruler of a nordic country in the old nordic way.
The way the empire sees it is that Ulfric killed a imperial subject in an imperial province, which is illegal under imperial law.
In reply to Sirocco: I think Ahtar was talking about Jar-ree

Spoiler:

a bandit leader who tries to convince anyone who walks by to help him slaughter an entire ship's crew

so that one might be justified. As far as Torygg, he was a Nord whose opinion wasn't much different than Ulfric's. I believe the reason you don't see any Argonian or Khajit legionary is because the Aldmeri Dominion is trying to weaken the nordic and imperial armies rather than its own forces; after all the Khajits joined the Dominion during the Great War and the Argonians aren't under imperial rule.

Im pretty sure you are not allowed to call an african-american robber a filthy african. Not an expert on the subject, but Im 99% sure about it.
About the law, it is clearly a nord land where nord law and tradition is honored unless you sold yourself out to the empire for career. Im sure skyrim does not belong to the nords, simply because I bought the game, and Im the hero, so I get to do as I like. I own their asses. But lets face it. Nords are the 2nd contenders in the line, if I ever feel like giving up my possession.
If it was france, saying "france belongs to the french" would draw no attention, so If you condemn ulfric and the nords for saying that, Im just going to call you a giant hypocrite.
I understand Khajit since they are domninion slaves, though that should make them even more eager to find a force opposing the thalmor. Of course that is not the empire, since they are busy sucking elf ass.
The argonian on the otherhand have no such problems. They are a valuable asset being abel to breath underwater, and seem to have no problem in the cold climate. I doubt they avoid empire service for any reason. Nope, they are not wanted because lets not forget, the empire is a bunch of rich racist [&@%!] busy assassinating eachother for power, and sucking elf ass.

[MetaCthulhu]

Long post, you are warned.

Hidden:

Im pretty sure you are not allowed to call an african-american robber a filthy african. Not an expert on the subject, but Im 99% sure about it.

You are 100% correct, but in this case Ahtar was having a private conversation with the PC. Ahtar also calls his own prisoners "scum", and has no complaints for the other Argonian in the city(Gulum-Ei) so I think it's a stretch to call him racist.

About the law, it is clearly a nord land where nord law and tradition is honored unless you sold yourself out to the empire for career. Im sure skyrim does not belong to the nords, simply because I bought the game, and Im the hero, so I get to do as I like. I own their asses.

Again, you are 100% correct. Torygg was an imperial subject who, most likely, pledged allegiance to the Empire so, by your standard, it was murder. And this is precisely the point I wanted to make: The legality of the duel is only determinable after the Civil War is over.

If it was france, saying "france belongs to the french" would draw no attention, so If you condemn ulfric and the nords for saying that, Im just going to call you a giant hypocrite.

That is entirely true, but if you said that in the European Union you might draw some ire.

I understand Khajit since they are domninion slaves...

The Khajit aren't actually slaves though, they worship the Thalmor for restoring the moons.

The argonian on the otherhand have no such problems. They are a valuable asset being abel to breath underwater, and seem to have no problem in the cold climate. I doubt they avoid empire service for any reason.

There is a reason Argonians avoid imperial service: They aren't in the Empire. They have no horse in this race. They swear allegiance to neither the Empire, nor the Aldmeri Dominion.

lets not forget, the empire is a bunch of rich racist [&@%!] busy assassinating eachother for power...

If racist is "not wanting to serve next to a tree-worshiping-lizardperson-who-lives-in-a-swamp" than True. If "for power" is "assassinating the person who assassinated you" than True.

[MidbossVyers]

In terms of "for power", I think he was referring to Motierre rather than the Emperor. It's a pretty classic strategy to get the Throne without sitting in the Throne by killing the current monarch and planting a figurehead in his place that you can control. Despite being Breton, Motierre is still "of the Empire".

[MetaCthulhu]

I probably should have read closer. But I think the point still stands. After all political manoeuvring is more of a Breton thing than a thing for the Empire as a whole. Also the King of Morrowind had a personal Shadow-Scale so not like assassination is just an Empirical thing.

[MidbossVyers]

It's a Breton thing? But yes, assassination is more the specialty of Dunmer and Argonians, with the legally sanctioned Morag Tong and Shadow-Scales, respectively.

[MetaCthulhu]

again.
Yes, King of Blackmarsh for the Shadowscale.
As far as Bretons:

...Even the natives have difficulty distinguishing their leaders from one another. Indeed, it is an old joke among the Bretons: "find a new hill, become a king," and many have taken it to heart.
The Pocket Guide to the Empire, 1st Edition.

[Sirocco]

You are 100% correct, but in this case Ahtar was having a private conversation with the PC. Ahtar also calls his own prisoners "scum", and has no complaints for the other Argonian in the city(Gulum-Ei) so I think it's a stretch to call him racist.
Again, you are 100% correct. Torygg was an imperial subject who, most likely, pledged allegiance to the Empire so, by your standard, it was murder. And this is precisely the point I wanted to make: The legality of the duel is only determinable after the Civil War is over.
That is entirely true, but if you said that in the European Union you might draw some ire.
The Khajit aren't actually slaves though, they worship the Thalmor for restoring the moons.
There is a reason Argonians avoid imperial service: They aren't in the Empire. They have no horse in this race. They swear allegiance to neither the Empire, nor the Aldmeri Dominion.
If racist is "not wanting to serve next to a tree-worshiping-lizardperson-who-lives-in-a-swamp" than True. If "for power" is "assassinating the person who assassinated you" than True.

How do you know ahtar has no problems with Gulum-ei? Other than assuming. I doubt that the fact that 1 argonian he was talking about turns out to be a criminal, would prove he is not racist. I dont believe in assumptions and spidersenses.

"The legality of the duel is only determinable after the Civil War is over." So the legality of a tradition that favors "might makes right" can only be determined after we determined the outcome of the war errupted by said tradition, a war that is itself determined by the same "might makes right" method?
Following this logic, I think ulfric won the war fair and square, the moment he killed the high king. Wouldnt you agree?
Yes I am saying that by not accepting the tradition and the outcome of said tradition, the empire legally recognized ulfric's right to high kingship.

"That is entirely true, but if you said that in the European Union you might draw some ire." Not a fan of any evil empires. So BRING IT [&@%!]!

"...worship the Thalmor for restoring the moons." Close enough for me. They are being lied to. If truth comes to light, they will feel the same way.

"...Argonians... have no horse in this race." We could assume argonians stick very very close together, but considering that there were many argonian servants in oblivion, Im sure some wouldnt feel bad joining the legion as a mercenary, if they were allowed. But its debatable.

"assassinating the person who assassinated you" Yes, by that I meant the assassination of the emperor, and his relative at her wedding.
Conclusion is that the empire completely lacks morals (not just the highground). Everything they do is quetionable, from the very start of the game, where they wanted to execute me for no reason.
I see the empire as a criminal organization working with thugs, silencing even their own, let alone an innocent they just met, to cut loose ends.
We all sat next to ulfric at the start of the game, saw him gagged and tied up, which pretty much proves he is a go getter, who wouldnt send an assassin to kill the high king (or the emperor for that matter). Yes he is racist, but that could be changed. The empire cant. Only destroyed.

[MidbossVyers]

Ulfric isn't even actively racist either, just at worst racially neglectful. In other words, he doesn't care. Also, the Empire is fighting Ulfric NOT because he is racist, but only because he is a rebel. In other words, had Ulfric remained loyal to the Empire, the Empire wouldn't really care how he treated anyone. Heck, the Empire labeled Ulfric a hero for fighting the Forsworn, but as soon as he rebelled, those exact same actions were vilified. To stop Ulfric's "racist actions" is hardly a reason to join the Legion.

[MetaCthulhu]

Long post again, you are warned again.

Hidden:

How do you know ahtar has no problems with Gulum-ei? Other than assuming. I doubt that the fact that 1 argonian he was talking about turns out to be a criminal, would prove he is not racist. I dont believe in assumptions and spidersenses.

Good man. But wouldn't it be assuming if we said he was racist because of 1 contextual piece of dialogue?

So the legality of a tradition that favors "might makes right" can only be determined after we determined the outcome of the war errupted by said tradition, a war that is itself determined by the same "might makes right" method?

You're paraphrasing a bit, but yeah that was the gist.

Following this logic, I think ulfric won the war fair and square, the moment he killed the high king. Wouldnt you agree?

I disagree. I think you, me, and Jarl Balgruff know how to seperate individual might from military might.

Yes I am saying that by not accepting the tradition and the outcome of said tradition, the empire legally recognized ulfric's right to high kingship.

The Empire legally recognized Ulfric's right to candidacy for high kingship, but it also recognises Ulfric illegally (under Imperial law) killed an Imperial subject and must face justice. So it would have let him run for High King, but only after the executioner chopped off his head.

"That is entirely true, but if you said that in the European Union you might draw some ire." Not a fan of any evil empires. So BRING IT [&@%!]!

May I just avoid this can of worms?

"...worship the Thalmor for restoring the moons." Close enough for me. They are being lied to. If truth comes to light, they will feel the same way..

Well the truth has come to light, and it is this: The Thalmor may have restored the moons (about a 1% chance) or the the moons came back on their own and the Thalmor to credit for it.

"...Argonians... have no horse in this race." We could assume argonians stick very very close together, but considering that there were many argonian servants in oblivion, Im sure some wouldnt feel bad joining the legion as a mercenary, if they were allowed. But its debatable..

Yeah, I really don't know, so your guess is as good as mine.

Conclusion is that the empire completely lacks morals (not just the highground). Everything they do is quetionable, from the very start of the game, where they wanted to execute me for no reason.
I see the empire as a criminal organization working with thugs, silencing even their own, let alone an innocent they just met, to cut loose ends.

You're probably right about the Empire. Although the Imperial Commander at Helgen might have just had a really bad day, and wanted to impress her boss.

We all sat next to Ulfric at the start of the game, saw him gagged and tied up, which pretty much proves he is a go getter, who wouldnt send an assassin to kill the high king (or the emperor for that matter). Yes he is racist, but that could be changed. The empire can't. Only destroyed.

I have no doubt that Ulfric is a "go getter" more likely to swing an axe in your face than plant a dagger in the back, and for this reason I really respect him. As for changing him: He is a Nord, a people with a natural disposition to hate elves. He is captured during the Great War, and is tortured by elves. So I think elf hatred is ingrained in there pretty far. As for changing the Empire: I think it's possible, after all the White-Gold Concordat changed the Empire quite a bit and that was less than a lifetime ago.

Ulfric isn't even actively racist either, just at worst racially neglectful.

I thought he had passed legislation to keep the Dunmer in the "Snow Quarter" of the city, and the Argonians on docks, but I might be wrong. For the rest of the post: You're right, You are absolutely right.

[Dark Spark]

I just had an interesting conversation with Ahtar in solitude. I asked him about his next execution, and he shared an interesting thought with me. He told me that "Filthy Argonian never would have set foot in this city, if High King Torygg was still alive."
Surprise, it seems racism isnt a nord, ulfric, or stormcloack thing in skyrim. As a matter of fact the imperials and their collaborators are just as racist [&@%!], from the late Torygg the lame to the common imperial legionary.
By the way, anybody ever seen an argonian or khajit legionary?

Well, it is a matter of the city jailor expressing his distaste against someone with overt criminal intentions (Jar-ree approaches anyone and everyone with shady propositions, and one of them rejects it within earshot of you).

I read the statement as a possible illustration at Elisif's impotence rather than a hint at Torygg's proactive racism. Ahtar probably approached Elisif with a request to apprehend or harrass Jar-ree and she shot him down with some feel-good missive.

[Sirocco]

Good man. But wouldn't it be assuming if we said he was racist because of 1 contextual piece of dialogue?

You're paraphrasing a bit, but yeah that was the gist.

I disagree. I think you, me, and Jarl Balgruff know how to seperate individual might from military might.

The Empire legally recognized Ulfric's right to candidacy for high kingship, but it also recognises Ulfric illegally (under Imperial law) killed an Imperial subject and must face justice. So it would have let him run for High King, but only after the executioner chopped off his head.

May I just avoid this can of worms?

You're probably right about the Empire. Although the Imperial Commander at Helgen might have just had a really bad day, and wanted to impress her boss.

I have no doubt that Ulfric is a "go getter" more likely to swing an axe in your face than plant a dagger in the back, and for this reason I really respect him. As for changing him: He is a Nord, a people with a natural disposition to hate elves. He is captured during the Great War, and is tortured by elves. So I think elf hatred is ingrained in there pretty far. As for changing the Empire: I think it's possible, after all the White-Gold Concordat changed the Empire quite a bit and that was less than a lifetime ago.

"...because of 1 contextual piece of dialogue?" It is called evidence. Sorry I couldnt gather more, the NPCs are not very talkative.

"You're paraphrasing a bit, but yeah that was the gist." Now Im confused, because here you acknowledge ulfrics right to high-kingship. But than...

"I disagree. I think you, me, and Jarl Balgruff know how to seperate individual might from military might." You and balgruff know something very different let me assure you. All I know is that balgruff played the neutral while supporting the empire with weapons. Just listen to his brother, or his imperial yesman. His reasons? MONEY! Only did the neutral charade because whiterun is a central hub of commerce in skyrim. Ulfric did not force him to chose a side.

"but it also recognises Ulfric illegally (under Imperial law) killed an Imperial subject and must face justice." You and the empire have an interesting sense of justice. Around here we at least try to pretend the "guilty" can have a fair trial. Im also not sure about that recognition either, hearing what tulius and elisif have to say about ulfric using the voice in a fair fight. If it was up to me the [&@%!]'s head would be rotting on a pike next to tulius's.

"May I just avoid this can of worms? " I just wanted you to see the point of view I watch this insane world we live in.

"impress her boss." This just goes to show, you should never try to impress your boss. Who knows there could be the same guy you screwed over waiting to axe you where you keep the key to the door leading out. Important life lessons we learn every day.

By the way ulric cant be racist unless he hates imperials redguard and breton (this could be a possibility). Hating elves is not racism because elves are a different species. And since no politican or celebrity ever told me that speciesism is bad, hating elves is probably ok.

[MetaCthulhu]

I really am sorry about all these long posts.

Hidden:

Now I'm confused, because here you acknowledge Ulfric's right to high-kingship.

I acknowledge Ulfric's candidacy to high-kingship. I cannot stress that enough.

You and Balgruff know something very different let me assure you. All I know is that Balgruff played the neutral while supporting the Empire with weapons. Just listen to his brother, or his Imperial yesman. His reasons? MONEY! Only did the neutral charade because Whiterun is a central hub of commerce in Skyrim. Ulfric did not force him to chose a side.

My bad, this was the quote I was trying to reference:

Jarl Balgruuf: "If Ulfric wants to challenge my rule in the old way, let him. Though I suspect he'll prefer to send his 'Stormcloaks' to do it for him."
Irileth: "True. He's already proven his personal strength. Now he seeks to prove his army's."

And I was trying to reference that quote in reply to this:

Following (might makes right) logic, I think Ulfric won the war fair and square, the moment he killed the high king.

You and the Empire have an interesting sense of justice. Around here we at least try to pretend the "guilty" can have a fair trial. Im also not sure about that recognition either, hearing what Tulius and Elisif have to say about Ulfric using the voice in a fair fight. If it was up to me the [&@%!]'s head would be rotting on a pike next to Tulius's.

I misspoke; if a may offer "comeuppance" or "retribution" as alternatives because you're right, "justice" may be to strong a word for the situation. Also I think Skyrim has more of a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants jury system than modern times. As for recognition: for Elisif, that's the man who killed her husband. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts". So that one is understandable. For Tulius: I don't know, he's just kinda a Grumpy Bunny.

This just goes to show, you should never try to impress your boss. Who knows there could be the same guy you screwed over waiting to axe you where you keep the key to the door leading out. Important life lessons we learn every day.

Darn straight! That's why Machiavelli wrote:

If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.

By the way Ulfric can't be racist unless he hates Imperials Redguard and Breton (this could be a possibility). Hating elves is not racism because elves are a different species. And since no politican or celebrity ever told me that speciesism is bad, hating elves is probably ok.

Now you're just trolling me. Also, does this mean Ahtar is in the clear?

[Sirocco]

I really am sorry about all these long posts.

Hidden:

Now I'm confused, because here you acknowledge Ulfric's right to high-kingship.

I acknowledge Ulfric's candidacy to high-kingship. I cannot stress that enough.

You and Balgruff know something very different let me assure you. All I know is that Balgruff played the neutral while supporting the Empire with weapons. Just listen to his brother, or his Imperial yesman. His reasons? MONEY! Only did the neutral charade because Whiterun is a central hub of commerce in Skyrim. Ulfric did not force him to chose a side.

My bad, this was the quote I was trying to reference:

Jarl Balgruuf: "If Ulfric wants to challenge my rule in the old way, let him. Though I suspect he'll prefer to send his 'Stormcloaks' to do it for him."
Irileth: "True. He's already proven his personal strength. Now he seeks to prove his army's."

And I was trying to reference that quote in reply to this:

Following (might makes right) logic, I think Ulfric won the war fair and square, the moment he killed the high king.

You and the Empire have an interesting sense of justice. Around here we at least try to pretend the "guilty" can have a fair trial. Im also not sure about that recognition either, hearing what Tulius and Elisif have to say about Ulfric using the voice in a fair fight. If it was up to me the [&@%!]'s head would be rotting on a pike next to Tulius's.

I misspoke; if a may offer "comeuppance" or "retribution" as alternatives because you're right, "justice" may be to strong a word for the situation. Also I think Skyrim has more of a fly-by-the-seat-of-your-pants jury system than modern times. As for recognition: for Elisif, that's the man who killed her husband. No "ifs" "ands" or "buts". So that one is understandable. For Tulius: I don't know, he's just kinda a Grumpy Bunny.

This just goes to show, you should never try to impress your boss. Who knows there could be the same guy you screwed over waiting to axe you where you keep the key to the door leading out. Important life lessons we learn every day.

Darn straight! That's why Machiavelli wrote:

If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared.

By the way Ulfric can't be racist unless he hates Imperials Redguard and Breton (this could be a possibility). Hating elves is not racism because elves are a different species. And since no politican or celebrity ever told me that speciesism is bad, hating elves is probably ok.

Now you're just trolling me. Also, does this mean Ahtar is in the clear?

Since I got no problem with ulfric hating dirt elves, sure. I just brought ahtar up because a lot of people are very hypocritical about the stormcloacks and the empire.
Its very easy. Stormcloacks = good guys (hey, they hate elves) Empire = bad guys (they suck elf ass).

[Yaije]

there are no good guys or bad guys in the war. Just people with different perspectives or focusing on different reasons for what's going on.

Both sides have the plus sides, and down sides. But most people only like to focus on a couple points or characters.

[MidbossVyers]

there are no good guys or bad guys in the war. Just people with different perspectives or focusing on different reasons for what's going on.

Both sides have the plus sides, and down sides. But most people only like to focus on a couple points or characters.

All wars worth fighting in are like this, from the 3 Kingdoms era of China to the Sengoku period of Japan.

[MetaCthulhu]

Two things:

• #1 I think we got off the original topic somewhere.
  #2 We are getting dangerously close to Godwin's Law.

[Kavatch99]

Two things:

• #1 I think we got off the original topic somewhere.
  #2 We are getting dangerously close to Godwin's Law.

Yeah, we should probably get back to the duel. And good idea, let's stay away from Godwin and his law about angry failed Austrian painters.

[AKB]

We're not going to have insults thrown at other users here, even jokingly. Stick to the topic.

[Kavatch99]

Got it.

Now, personally, I'm very neutral about the whole thing. I think both sides make fair points, and both sides are completely wrong on other things. Ulfric's actions were indeed symbolic, but some NPCs hint that Torygg would've been more than happy to hear out and consider Ulfric's words so perhaps Ulfric acted in haste??

[AKB]

You know what I think? I think Bethesda's writers intended the exact details to be arguable over and there is no right answer.

Edit: Oh geez, I just looked back at this thread. Manifest Destiny, hahahahaha!

[MetaCthulhu]

Ulfric's actions were indeed symbolic, but some NPCs hint that Torygg would've been more than happy to hear out and consider Ulfric's words so perhaps Ulfric acted in haste??

Yeah, Ulfric was a tad overzealous, but usually that's a good thing.

You know what I think? I think Bethesda's writers intended the exact details to be arguable over and there is no right answer.

You're probably right. They did do a really good job.

Also, here are the charges laid against Jarl Ulfric: Insurrection,(for building an army) murder of Imperial citizens,(maybe for one of the massacres mentioned during Season Unending?) the assassination of King Torygg,(the thing we are currently discussing) and high treason against the Empire.(for using the aforementioned army against the Empire)

[MidbossVyers]

"Murder of Imperial citizens". Other people may interpret it differently, but for me, that's one of the reasons that 2/3 of my characters join the Stormcloaks. To the Empire, the Stormcloaks are not an official army of a foreign nation, but rather just a gang. Therefore, any Legion soldiers they kill do not count as KIA but rather as simple murder. Therefore, "murder of Imperial citizens" literally means all the casualties of the Legion. This self-righteous pigheadedness turns me off from the Imperial army.