The TES Roleplayer's Thread

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Finn Wolfshorn
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Finn Wolfshorn »

Good luck with your writing project, Dohva! I'll avidly await the Silencing Maven Complete Omnibus Edition... :)

TBH I initially thought that six years was a bit young for Narji to be taken on a trip in the wilderness (and not for the first time either), but children in pre-industrial societies (and well into the industrial revolution if you were labour class, or even today if you're born on the wrong side of the globe) were/are forced and expected to cope with a lot more, and tougher stuff too, than we'd think suitable for a modern western child of the same age. That certainly doesn't include becoming a werewolf, but with Narji being the daughter of hunters it's reasonable she'd know a bit about living in the wilderness, what's safe to eat and what's not; I could imagine she's been shown how to skin an animal, even if she may not be strong enough to do it properly.

Should she stay or should she go... if she goes there may be trouble, but if she stays she'd have to share the shack with the corpse of a man she liked and killed, a corpse that's bound to get smelly after a few days besides reminding her every second of what she's done and become. I don't see how she could stand that longer than a night; I know I'd want to run away in her place.

As for the likelihood of somebody finding her anytime soon, she's in the middle of nowhere, and let's keep in mind that what we see of Skyrim in the game is scaled down a lot, the 'real' country would be at least ten times as large. The hermit finding her in time before she bled to death was already a stroke of luck, another person just happening by at exactly the right time would be a stretch IMO.

Forcing yourself to write something your heart isn't in is never a good idea, it's just a waste of time and energy [/wise old man :wink: ]. Maybe you could have treated the time between the hermit's death and her rescue as a flashback, i.e. fast forward to where the Companion finds her and have her tell them what happened inbetween - that way you'd have an internal reason to keep it short, because she wouldn't want to dwell on the details, and telling it in her voice might make it a little more interesting to write. But nevermind, it's done now, let's move on.
Eine insel mit nur einem berg, doch der ist innen heiß
Und spuckt asche, pest und corprus, wo kein mensch 'ne kur für weiß -
Ja, wie mag die insel heißen, von Vivec bis Dagon Fel?
Jeder sollte einmal reisen in das schöne Vvardenfell!

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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Mauin »

Finn Wolfshorn wrote:
TBH I initially thought that six years was a bit young for Narji to be taken on a trip in the wilderness (and not for the first time either), but children in pre-industrial societies (and well into the industrial revolution if you were labour class, or even today if you're born on the wrong side of the globe) were/are forced and expected to cope with a lot more, and tougher stuff too, than we'd think suitable for a modern western child of the same age. That certainly doesn't include becoming a werewolf, but with Narji being the daughter of hunters it's reasonable she'd know a bit about living in the wilderness, what's safe to eat and what's not; I could imagine she's been shown how to skin an animal, even if she may not be strong enough to do it properly.

Should she stay or should she go... if she goes there may be trouble, but if she stays she'd have to share the shack with the corpse of a man she liked and killed, a corpse that's bound to get smelly after a few days besides reminding her every second of what she's done and become. I don't see how she could stand that longer than a night; I know I'd want to run away in her place.

As for the likelihood of somebody finding her anytime soon, she's in the middle of nowhere, and let's keep in mind that what we see of Skyrim in the game is scaled down a lot, the 'real' country would be at least ten times as large. The hermit finding her in time before she bled to death was already a stroke of luck, another person just happening by at exactly the right time would be a stretch IMO.

Forcing yourself to write something your heart isn't in is never a good idea, it's just a waste of time and energy [/wise old man :wink: ]. Maybe you could have treated the time between the hermit's death and her rescue as a flashback, i.e. fast forward to where the Companion finds her and have her tell them what happened inbetween - that way you'd have an internal reason to keep it short, because she wouldn't want to dwell on the details, and telling it in her voice might make it a little more interesting to write. But nevermind, it's done now, let's move on.
Six years is still young, but this is Tamriel. I'm just going to add that Narji isn't really strong enough to catch any animals. Maybe the odd rabbit (like the one she caught by the shack), but you can't survive on just rabbit. She'd probably eat more plants than anything else, but unless she eats a ridiculous amount of plants, she wouldn't get enough calories to survive long. Plants aren't really an option in winter, either. Nothing would be growing.

Speaking of the corpse of the hermit, I'm tying that in with what's in-game. There's usually a bear in the shack when I find it (along with bloody bones), so I'm saying a bear entered the shack and made a meal of the dead hermit and his remaining food. Narji staying in there when there's a bear nearby wouldn't be all that smart, either. Six year old girl VS Bear... Bear wins. Killing the werewolf was really just luck. She wouldn't be able to bring down a bear.

Yeah. That's basically what I was thinking. The wilds of Skyrim are going to be fairly empty of people. Most tend to lurk around the settlements. Narji is still going to be rescued a second time, but at least it won't be in the same area. She's out near Volunruud and a member of the Circle (who's out on a hunting trip) finds her. Even then it was because her scent (Narji stunk after months of running in the wild) was scaring the Elk away. The Companion investigated and found the dying Narji.

That probably would have been a better route to take, but Narji is still going to tell the Companions what happened anyway. Maybe you'll hear more of what happened then. Probably not much. Something like that would take a while to come out, especially considering Narji will be weak when she is brought to Kodlak. She wouldn't really be in the mood for talking then... Assuming she even remembers how to speak. Voices tend to get rough after not using them for a while. Speaking from experience.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Dohva. »

Precisely because the wilderness is huge that there's a lot of potential for something bad to happen. And in winter? She would freeze in no time with rags and minimal furs. Ten times worse. A six year old is a six year old no matter what universe they're living in (I say that because Nords are humans so psychologically and physiologically they would be similar to us).

A child that age would have a hard time even hunting rabbits which are quick prey and not easily taken down unless there is a trap or gun involved. Well, a bow considering its Tamriel. But she didn't have one of those either. Would she know how to flush them out of their holes? What times of the day (specifically night) they would be out? How would a child that size be able to hunt animals with a dagger? Fish without a pole? And given that its winter, animals such as rabbits would be hard to find. Elk and caribou would move to the tundra which is far from where she started at. As a werewolf, she would more than likely be kept alive by those she kills yet the hermit is the only person she's eaten. Anyway, I digress.

Far as writing something you're not excited about...its the reason I plan out what I'm going to write before I do so. That way getting stuck happens less often (it still does though). A tip: conflict and tension propel your story forward so what you're writing stays exciting and you don't end up with all filler scenes.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Finn Wolfshorn »

Interesting... If I plan everything out ahead I end up never writing the story because it's all complete in my mind, so why go to the trouble? I do have a rough idea, of course, but it seems there has to be space for exploration and discovery on the way or I lose impetus. Infinite diversity, infinite combinations...

Yeah, the difficulties of catching animals, I hadn't quite thought of that... Catching fish by hand would actually be the easiest option if you can find them in shallow water, I've done it myself. Elk or caribou might actually migrate to volcanic Eastmarch in winter because it's warmer with all the hot springs (doesn't Frostfall make Eastmarch one of the warmer holds because of that?), but she has no way of killing them in human form. A werewolf kill (not a human, but a deer or, what do I know, a bear cub) could keep her fed for quite a while if there was anything left after transforming back and she made jerky of it or something. But her likeliest source of animal protein might be the leftovers of (other) predators. I imagine her hiding upwind from a bear, waiting for it to finish its meal while hoping the wind won't turn and give her away ... and then the bear finally has enough and trots away... she waits till it's definitely gone, then creeps near the carcass, mouth watering... only to be scared away by a pack of wolves. :P Some little scene like that, a snapshot of her struggle for survival, could have made a good story and maybe served better as a transition from her flight from the shack to her rescue than a mere summary.

But ultimately what we're reading here isn't The Tale of Narji the six-year-old werewolf and how she survived in the wilderness but The Tale of Narji the six-year-old-werewolf and how she grew into a warrior, a Companion, a hero, something poor Aren's ghost could be proud of, maybe even something she couldn't be if she weren't a werewolf, and I understand the wish to get on with it. Also our modern desire to see everything fleshed out concrete and realistic isn't the measure of all things. The authors of the icelandic sagas weren't afraid of glossing over a few months or years with a sentence or two before picking up the thread of their plot again; I doubt they would have found anything amiss with these two minichapters.
Eine insel mit nur einem berg, doch der ist innen heiß
Und spuckt asche, pest und corprus, wo kein mensch 'ne kur für weiß -
Ja, wie mag die insel heißen, von Vivec bis Dagon Fel?
Jeder sollte einmal reisen in das schöne Vvardenfell!

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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Mauin »

I'm also throwing in the fact that Narji's werewolf form wouldn't be large enough to take down an animal like a deer or an elk. It's not much larger than a child. She would have had to survive off of whatever is left behind by other predators. Or caught fish by hand (which is also something I've done before). Hell, if she was desperate enough she might have resorted to cannibalism. Eh. But that just reminds me of Life of Pi... I did not like that book.

Another option for Narji would have been to steal food from bandits. She's small enough that she could be hard to see, so... Better than hunting or fishing.
Whatever she did, it allowed her to last for several months until she was finally found. At that point she didn't have to worry any longer; she had finally found home.


Once upon a time I did plan everything out before writing. I stopped doing that ages ago because I always ignored the plan and went a different route.
Well... That and I don't like planning. It's easier to let whatever wants to come out out. If nothing wants to come out, then so be it. No need to feel forced or locked in by a plan.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Dohva. »

Ok, well. I was only trying to help in giving ideas for interesting stories. Writing fiction is something I enjoy doing and I like to help others. But maybe I've said too much. I'll just keep my comments to myself from now on.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Mauin »

Huh? I was just trying to have a conversation? Discussion? Whatever you want to call it? I'm confused.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Finn Wolfshorn »

Dovah, I'm sure your input was appreciated by both of us, but we can't all agree on everything all the time. Different methods work or don't work for different writers, different writers are interested in different things (IDIC). I enjoyed our common brainstorming about the details of Narji's time in the wilderness, but ultimately it's up to Mauin what she wants or doesn't want to write. Please don't stop commenting, this thread is getting lonely enough as it is. :(
Eine insel mit nur einem berg, doch der ist innen heiß
Und spuckt asche, pest und corprus, wo kein mensch 'ne kur für weiß -
Ja, wie mag die insel heißen, von Vivec bis Dagon Fel?
Jeder sollte einmal reisen in das schöne Vvardenfell!

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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Mauin »

Finn Wolfshorn wrote:Dovah, I'm sure your input was appreciated by both of us, but we can't all agree on everything all the time. Different methods work or don't work for different writers, different writers are interested in different things (IDIC). I enjoyed our common brainstorming about the details of Narji's time in the wilderness, but ultimately it's up to Mauin what she wants or doesn't want to write. Please don't stop commenting, this thread is getting lonely enough as it is. :(
That brainstorming is actually how I work when I have other people who are talking. I haven't been ignoring or rejecting any ideas. Just gathering.
Just because I've passed one point doesn't mean that anything that has been said can't be used.

I like going back and forth like that, so... I dunno. I'm just confused now.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Dohva. »

Finn Wolfshorn wrote: But ultimately what we're reading here isn't The Tale of Narji the six-year-old werewolf and how she survived in the wilderness but The Tale of Narji the six-year-old-werewolf and how she grew into a warrior, a Companion, a hero, something poor Aren's ghost could be proud of, maybe even something she couldn't be if she weren't a werewolf, and I understand the wish to get on with it. Also our modern desire to see everything fleshed out concrete and realistic isn't the measure of all things. The authors of the icelandic sagas weren't afraid of glossing over a few months or years with a sentence or two before picking up the thread of their plot again; I doubt they would have found anything amiss with these two minichapters.
My response was to this part of your post, Finn. Sorry but the tone sounds dismissive. I'm not trying to force anyone to put anything I say into their stories. Realistic characters & circumstances are a very real part of story crafting, not something to throw in there as an afterthought. Maybe I'd enjoy some of Mauin's stories more if they had proper tension and depth. Just trying to help out with that. But alas, this is a roleplaying thread not a writing one so I rest my case.

Good discussions on this thread have been overshadowed by the spamming of stories so I just wanted to avoid that by throwing some dialogue in. Kind of over it now.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Mauin »

Oh. Now I'm less confused. You didn't quote Finn in your post, so I thought I did something wrong again.

You've said my stories lack tension and depth before. I've tried adding that in, but it never works. Never. I think my brain was wired the wrong way or something. What I have in my head isn't even close to what comes out onto paper. Maybe it would work better if I could do it visually (like a video/movie or something), but that would never happen. I don't have the skill.


So... Now I've gone back to the same situation I had with Seryna's first versions. I feel like Narji's "stories" are woefully inadequate and now I've got to rewrite them. Otherwise I'm not going to be able to continue. I'll try and think of what was tossed around in the brainstorm, but... I don't know. We'll see.
Going back to square one.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Finn Wolfshorn »

Meh, sorry if I came across as dismissive, that was anything but my intention. I was just trying to offer a different angle on the matter. Gods know I'd love to read The Tale of Narji the six-year-old werewolf and how she survived in the wilderness but if Narji's author is more interested in something else that's tough luck for me. And I never meant to deny the importance of realistic characters and circumstances, I was just saying that different ages, different aesthetics differ in how much detail they would consider to be necessary for something to be deemed realistic, but apparently I didn't say that very well, or maybe it was beside the point. Sorry for any confusion that has caused.

Tension and depth - I think the first couple of Narji stories up to and including Moonlight Revelation had just that, Mauin, they were anything but woefully adequate IMO, which is why the two last ones were a bit of a letdown. They (=the earlier ones) made me feel and fear for the characters, which is something your stories don't do for me that often - there is e.g. no tension with a character like Vulom, cool though she is in her evil glory, because you know she's always going to come out on top no matter what, whereas with Narji you have things going horribly wrong and the hope that the character will be strong enough to rise above that, which is a lot more interesting. To you Narji may just be a minor character, but I feel she has the potential for a new level of depth (hence my gold vein comment somewhere above). Not back to square one, if you ask me, but go on like you started, only more. If that makes sense.

I guess I should shut up now, it's late here and I'm tired. Let me just say that I've loved the discussion we've had on the last ~2 pages and I'd hate if it died because anybody feels dismissed or misunderstood or whatever. Drem Yol Lok. :)
Eine insel mit nur einem berg, doch der ist innen heiß
Und spuckt asche, pest und corprus, wo kein mensch 'ne kur für weiß -
Ja, wie mag die insel heißen, von Vivec bis Dagon Fel?
Jeder sollte einmal reisen in das schöne Vvardenfell!

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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Mauin »

Finn Wolfshorn wrote: Tension and depth - I think the first couple of Narji stories up to and including Moonlight Revelation had just that, Mauin, they were anything but woefully adequate IMO, which is why the two last ones were a bit of a letdown. They (=the earlier ones) made me feel and fear for the characters, which is something your stories don't do for me that often - there is e.g. no tension with a character like Vulom, cool though she is in her evil glory, because you know she's always going to come out on top no matter what, whereas with Narji you have things going horribly wrong and the hope that the character will be strong enough to rise above that, which is a lot more interesting. To you Narji may just be a minor character, but I feel she has the potential for a new level of depth (hence my gold vein comment somewhere above). Not back to square one, if you ask me, but go on like you started, only more. If that makes sense.
The last two weren't even stories. Just summaries.

Not surprising with the Vulom comment. I mean... She's a thousand years old, Shezarrine, and ridiculously powerful (even in-game). I don't think anything could bring her down. Mind you... I did see something with the end of her reign as Empress. That's not really bringing her down, though, since she just pops up again to get her revenge before disappearing for who knows how long. I can't harm her. I like her too damn much.

Narji is kind of a wildcard, I guess. She's a new character that nobody is familiar with. As far as you know, things could go any way. If that's the case, then I don't think the new versions of her stories would have the feeling that the originals did since you know what's going to happen. I'm still going to rewrite it, though. It might turn out better. The things I post are only first drafts; I can't be bothered to really edit them that much. Maybe the second version will sound better.

I'm going to pick up a new notebook tomorrow and restart then. For now, though, I'm on cat watching duty.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Finn Wolfshorn »

Concerning Vulom, I didn't mean to suggest that you do anything drastic to her or stop writing about her (you wouldn't anyway), although it would be nice to see her having to struggle for something just for a change. Reading a Vulom story is a bit like watching a documentary feature about some graceful but deadly animal, say, a snake or a mantis or something, whose elegance and efficiency you can't help admiring - scientifically interesting, even aesthetically appealing in a way, just not emotionally satisfying because there's nothing human to relate to. It's an acquired taste. :)

Concerning Narji, I'm not so sure knowing what happens would spoil the feeling. We more or less knew what was going to happen this time because you told us about the hermit's oversight and Narji killing him before posting the stories - it wasn't just the plot that was emotionally engaging but the way you told it too, because you made the reader see through Aren's eyes and share his worried care for Narji, and TBH knowing what was coming made it all the more poignant. You didn't explore Narji's feelings in any great detail (or at all, because we saw her through another person's eyes) but gave enough dots for the reader to connect and fill out the contours. Anyway, I'm curious what you're going to do with her stories, what's going to change in the rewrite and how it goes on with her.

I'm continuing work on my Marilyn story after being too busy yesterday and too tired in the evening. I'm a slow writer (taking half a day for half a page sometimes), so it'll still be a while before you get to read it, but I'm approaching the part where she meets You'll-See-Whom, and I more or less know what happens then, so maybe the rest will go quicker. (Perhaps it would all be easier if I could write in my head while playing like you, Mauin, but I can't even imagine how you do that - I just suck at multitasking...)
Eine insel mit nur einem berg, doch der ist innen heiß
Und spuckt asche, pest und corprus, wo kein mensch 'ne kur für weiß -
Ja, wie mag die insel heißen, von Vivec bis Dagon Fel?
Jeder sollte einmal reisen in das schöne Vvardenfell!

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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Mauin »

Finn Wolfshorn wrote:Concerning Vulom, I didn't mean to suggest that you do anything drastic to her or stop writing about her (you wouldn't anyway), although it would be nice to see her having to struggle for something just for a change. Reading a Vulom story is a bit like watching a documentary feature about some graceful but deadly animal, say, a snake or a mantis or something, whose elegance and efficiency you can't help admiring - scientifically interesting, even aesthetically appealing in a way, just not emotionally satisfying because there's nothing human to relate to. It's an acquired taste. :)

Concerning Narji, I'm not so sure knowing what happens would spoil the feeling. We more or less knew what was going to happen this time because you told us about the hermit's oversight and Narji killing him before posting the stories - it wasn't just the plot that was emotionally engaging but the way you told it too, because you made the reader see through Aren's eyes and share his worried care for Narji, and TBH knowing what was coming made it all the more poignant. You didn't explore Narji's feelings in any great detail (or at all, because we saw her through another person's eyes) but gave enough dots for the reader to connect and fill out the contours. Anyway, I'm curious what you're going to do with her stories, what's going to change in the rewrite and how it goes on with her.

I'm continuing work on my Marilyn story after being too busy yesterday and too tired in the evening. I'm a slow writer (taking half a day for half a page sometimes), so it'll still be a while before you get to read it, but I'm approaching the part where she meets You'll-See-Whom, and I more or less know what happens then, so maybe the rest will go quicker. (Perhaps it would all be easier if I could write in my head while playing like you, Mauin, but I can't even imagine how you do that - I just suck at multitasking...)
I can't even think of anything that would make Vulom struggle. Honestly. At least... Not with her current self, anyway. No doubt her younger self (Second Era, freshly turned, probably some time during the Alliance War or the years after) struggled with things. The problem with that is that I don't know enough about the time period to do anything for it. It would help if I could play ESO, but unless I can find a physical copy of the game, that'll never happen (as much as I'd actually like to play the game, my limited monthly data -70GB- is an issue).
It would actually be sort of interesting to play Vulom in ESO, but it wouldn't work for the game's story. She can only be the "hero" once.

Well, I don't really want to say what has been changed, but the beginning of the first story is starting earlier. At sunset instead of at night so you get to see some of Narji's parents... I forgot their names (I might just rename them). That and there's now going to be around 20 stories. I'm still not going to tell much of what happened during the "hopeless months," but I've planned out three or so stories using some ideas from here. Maybe four. I don't have my shiny new notebook here (I should have picked up some pens, too, because apparently mine are all running out of ink again). There's still going to be a lot of fast forwarding, since there's no bloody way I'm going to tell all of Narji's life.

It probably takes me half an hour to write a page, if I'm concentrating on writing it neatly. If not... Maybe 15 minutes or less. That's if I have a clear idea of what I'm doing, too. If I don't, then I'll probably be paying more attention to the TV or something else.
And the "mentally writing stories while playing the game" thing doesn't really work so well. I mean, the idea for one of Seryna' stories worked well enough, but... It tends to come at the cost of not paying as much attention to the actual game. That seems to result in me walking off of cliffs or mountains, running into a tree or rock for a few minutes, or just plain wandering in circles a lot. On more than one occasion I've found myself asking, "How the [&@%!] did I get here?!"

Edit:
Well, I've added a few more pages to the first redone story for Narji. Some new details have emerged.

You can look at this if you want, but I'd suggest avoiding it if you want to be surprised:
Spoiler:
1. Narji has a doll. It's old (the doll has been passed from mother to daughter for 40 years), but she loves it. It will be important for later stories. I'm planning on tying it into the hermit's part of this.
2. Narji's mother (now named Aelys the Fleet so I'd stop calling her Aela by accident) is pregnant. This is going to have an impact on Narji.
3. Narji's father (still named Svenjo Black-Talon) has a dragon toy carved from the wood of an old oak from Cyrodiil. Like the doll, it has been passed down from father to son for many years. Narji likes to play dragon, so Svenjo speculates that, perhaps, the tradition should have been broken for the first time, allowing Narji to have the dragon. This is connected to Narji being Dragonborn.
Edit #2:
I'm posting this here as well. The actual positioning of Narji's scars:
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Dohva. »

So I resurrected Sylmirie last night. Yeah, I said once upon a time that she was forever retired. But I missed her fire and smart mouth. And in deciding to try something different with her, she joined the Companions to prove that mages can be fierce in battle, if not smarter than warriors. She dislikes everyone she's met so far, even the Dunmer. And she's certainly not staying in a communal room. She got herself a room at the inn which means she'll be needing to work plenty in order to keep paying for it. Eventually she'll make it to COW, but for now, she needs enough gold in order to travel to Markarth and find a certain someone.

Now that Felina is level 50 (and constructing her marsh home) and Lieth is vacationing on Solstheim with Vilkas, I figured Sylmirie could have a comeback. I'm not bored or anything, but its nice having such distinct personalities to choose from when I load the game. Do I play the emo-assassin, the promiscuous thief, or the hot-tempered Altmer ready to fry everyone upon sight? Ha. :D
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Finn Wolfshorn »

Dohva, I just wrote a several paragraphs long reply to your post but when I hit submit I found out that the forum had logged me out in the meantime. :x (I usually copypaste everything to avoid losing text that way but forgot to do so this time.) There's no way I'm going to retype all that from memory, so unfortunately you'll have to make do with the short version.

I'm glad to see Sylmirie back in business, and I'm curious whether she's going to become a werewolf too (if only for a while) or whether that's utterly beneath her dignity, and whether she'll become the Harbinger in the end. If that ever happens I fully expect Vignar Grey-Mane to have Brill pack his things and move out of Jorrvaskr in a storming rage!

Your characters have a weird knack for associating with the kind of people they're most unlikely to get along with! :lol: It's a most endearing feature. But please, don't let her make the same mistake as Lieth and marry another Companion - pretty please? *doggyeyes* (Speaking of Lieth, today I read the story where she awakes just outside Riften after a furry night butt-naked except for a dressing of dried blood and then comes home to quarrel with Vilkas about eating a guard. Adorable!

Anyway, look at me hanging around here instead of working on Marilyn's childhood story. Enough for now!

ETA: Mauin, I clicked your spoiler dreading some all-changing revelation but found some ideas that could be interesting, depending on what you do with them.
Spoiler:
Aelys being pregnant when she gets mangled by the werewolf seems to me over the top TBH. I mean, it's your story, if you think there's something important you can only convey this way by all means pull it off and convince me, but until then I don't see why this is necessary.
And with these scars I think Narji should be missing an eye as well of parts of nose and ear. At least one. The right one I'd say, from her perspective.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Mauin »

Finn Wolfshorn wrote: ETA: Mauin, I clicked your spoiler dreading some all-changing revelation but found some ideas that could be interesting, depending on what you do with them.
Spoiler:
Aelys being pregnant when she gets mangled by the werewolf seems to me over the top TBH. I mean, it's your story, if you think there's something important you can only convey this way by all means pull it off and convince me, but until then I don't see why this is necessary.
And with these scars I think Narji should be missing an eye as well of parts of nose and ear. At least one. The right one I'd say, from her perspective.
*shrug* I've done worse to characters, so it doesn't seem even remotely over the top to me. But it is what is needed to... Well, to help push Narji into becoming what she eventually becomes. Somehow being brought to the Companions didn't seem like enough. She needs another motivation to actually stay there. Otherwise she would have run off as soon as she could.

She has to retain both eyes. Just personal preference there. Narji's beauty is in the eyes and having one gaping hole where an eye is supposed to be would kinda ruin that. If this were real, she would have lost both eyes and she wouldn't have survived, especially not on her own.

Now...
Blooded Moons:
Spoiler:
Rays of orange light crossed over the rocky scrub of the Eastmarch tundra. Long tendrils of steam curled eagerly up into the air from the open maws of every volcanic vent and fissure. All around pools of mineral water bubbled, boiling water splashing against the crusty yellow stones. Clouds gathered above, slowly obscuring the two moons of Nirn, both full in all their glory. Three Nords –two adults and one child- picked their way through the muddy gullies towards the only grove of pines southwest of Kynesgrove.

Small Dragon’s Tongue shrubs dotted the misty grove; steam clung to the trees like long wisps of silken clothing, hiding most of the land from sight. Grass grew more easily here, giving the steps of the three Nords a softer sound as they moved under the shadows of the coarse old pines. They set up camp near the center of the grove; it was the only sheltered spot and the Nords needed to rest. It looked like it was going to rain during the night. Not one of the Nords wished to spend the night wet and shivering, unable to get dry or warm.

As the two adults worked to set up their tent, their child sprawled out in the green-brown grass to play with her doll. It was a ragged little thing, passed down over the years –forty, to be precise- from mother to child; the eyes –two glass orbs glued into the face- had fallen out and been replaced and uncountable number of times. Most of the doll’s hair was gone and it had many patches on its little body and clothes. The Nord child still loved it, though, and she was happy to play with it.

The girl’s mother, Aelys the Fleet, smiled over the hide she was laying onto the tent’s roughly hewn wooden frame; she remembered playing with that doll as a child and it brought her joy to see her own daughter enjoying it. Svenjo Black-Talon, the girl’s father, shared that joy. He had his own toy –and old dragon, carved from the wood of an old oak from Cyrodiil- that had been passed from father to son in the same manner as the doll. Soon, that toy would change hands; Aelys was with child and she was certain it was a boy.

For that reason, it was essential that the two older Nords get as many hunts in as possible. They only had another six or so months until Aelys’ pregnancy advanced to the stage where she could no longer travel. When that point arrived, Svenjo refused to leave the side of his wife; he had missed the birth of little Narji and he had absolutely no intention of missing the birth of his second child.

But as the sun set on that spring evening, something was concerning the black-haired lanky Nord. As he helped his wife build their fire, he was careful to pay close attention to his surroundings; things were unnaturally quiet. No birds could be heard chirping from their perches in the trees. No small animals stirred in the undergrowth… Something was wrong. But what? What could cause the animals to flee?

After the family ate a meal of fire roasted rabbit and potatoes, Svenjo took the time to voice his concerns to his wife, “Aelys… Do you think things seem too quiet? Listen. There aren’t any birds. No small animals are stirring in the grass. We haven’t seen any deer or elk all day.”

“I’ve noticed. There’s probably a pack of wolves in the area. Or a few Sabre Cats,” she paused, one hand resting idly on her belly, only just beginning to swell with the child within, “On second thought… It can’t be wolves. There hasn’t been any howling. It must be the Sabre Cats. This region is full of them. Either way, we’re not going to be able to catch anything here.”

“Well, you’re right about that. I’d say we’re better off going into the Rift. There are a lot of bears there, but the aspen woods are a haven for our prey. People pay good money for plump deer from the Fall Forest. They roast quite well… All the extra fat lends the meat flavor.”

Aelys chuckled and playfully cuffed her husband’s shoulder, “Oh, hush! You’re making me hungry. Hm. Or-“

The Nord woman was cut off by a sudden screech from nearby. Aelys and Svenjo watched their daughter hopping around the camp; she flapped her arms as if they were wings. Both Nords shared a laugh at how ridiculous she looked.

“Looks like Narji is playing dragon again,” Svenjo snorted, his emerald green eyes twinkling with amusement as they followed his daughter around, “Sometimes I wonder if she should have the dragon. She always seems to have these fantasies… I’ve never seen anything like it.”

“All kids play, Svenjo. Let Narji have her fun… But perhaps now isn’t the best time. It’s getting dark.”

Svenjo knew she was right; their fire was casting the only light in the grove. The last of the sun’s orange rays had dipped below the mountains and both moons were finally hidden by dark clouds, racing across the sky from some ferocious wind high above. Small drops of rain could be heard bouncing off the trees; soon, things would become slippery in the grove. It was time for bed.

“Narji,” Svenjo called out. The little girl froze, her raven black hair stuck to her face. She blew it out of the way and lowered her arms. Narji came forward when her father beckoned, “Play time is over. It’s time for bed. We’ve got a long day ahead of us tomorrow.”

“Yes, papa.”

Svenjo settled into the right side of the tent; his wife positioned herself beside him, her auburn hair resting on his shoulder. Little Narji curled up beside her mother. She was still panting slightly from her hopping and flapping, but Svenjo knew she slept like a log after a good play. Their fire soon died down, eliminating the last light in the grove. The only light came from the occasional Torchbug, flicking in the denser patches of undergrowth. Two of the Nords were asleep soon enough… Only little Narji remained awake.

Her mind was not on flying, or dragons, or even her parents. The moment the fire had gone out, darkness had crept over the grove. Not the darkness of night, but a shadow of something else; Narji felt as though something was out there, stalking the inky gloom of that stormy night. It wasn’t a pack of wolves, but neither was it a Sabre Cat. There was something malevolent out there… Something evil. Wolves and Sabre Cats were not evil.

The little Nord cuddled her doll and looked pointlessly out into the darkness. A creature howled in the distance; the sound was faint, but Narji could still hear it clearly enough, even over the snoring of her parents and the relentless hiss of steam from the volcanic vents. Even she –a child of six years- could tell that the howl wasn’t natural. It had the tone of a wolf… A giant wolf. Narji’s blood ran cold.

Each drop of rain striking a branch sounded like rocks bouncing down cliffs to little Narji’s ears. More howls came from the distance and Narji was nearly paralyzed by fear. Her heart thundered in her ears as she pressed herself closer to her sleeping mother in an attempt to calm herself; it wasn’t enough, so Narji rested her head upon her mother’s breast. She listened to the older woman’s heart beating and it soothed the girl. Narji soon forgot every other sound. When she fell asleep, she dreamed of her little brother; he would be a great warrior one day… She could only hope to match his skill one day, if she chose that path. Being a hunter was fun, but she wanted to try other things.

It was around midnight when little Narji awakened. A branch cracked nearby and the shock made the girl jump. The rain had stopped; the sound of three Nords breathing was almost loud enough to compete with the hissing of steam. Narji –unable to see in the dark- listened as closely as she could to the sounds of the tundra. The howls she had heard a few hours before had fallen silent. Now, the only thing Narji could hear was the soft crunch of grass as something very large moved nearby.

Narji debated waking her parents, but she didn’t wish to disturb them; both of them were sleeping peacefully. For all Narji knew, the noises could be from a deer or something nearby. Although… The crunch of grass didn’t sound like hoof beats; if it was an animal with hooves, it would be much quieter. This thing was big and had paws. A Sabre Cat? Well… Narji hoped it would leave. She was getting tired and didn’t have the will to wake her parents.

The little girl was half asleep when the enormous head poked into the tent. Her eyes opened wide in wonder and terror as she glimpsed two golden eyes, glowing like two small suns in the darkness. They were the eyes of a wolf, but… Each orb was the size of one of Narji’s fists. Even so, then had something wolf eyes did not; this creature was sentient, but it was far from human. Its eyes held no trace of mercy, compassion, or even pity. They were cold. In those eyes, little Narji saw only the relentless urge to hunt… To feed on human flesh. The tiny girl shrieked.

Her scream immediately roused both of her parents. The marauding beast growled and withdrew from the tent, ripping the hides away and pulling the frame out of the ground in the process. Svenjo and Aelys instantaneously leaped to their feet; Aelys had her hunting bow and Svenjo had his steel dagger. Narji, gripped by a fear unlike anything she had ever felt before, grabbed ono f their hunting knives and ducked behind a rock. She clutched helplessly at the doll; heart in her throat, Narji could only watch as the shadowy figures of her parents confronted a truly massive werewolf. The beast was at least eight feet tall –likely bigger than that- and as wide as a minimum of three people… Svenjo and Aelys both looked insignificant compared to the monster. Narji felt absolutely miniscule.

The clouds parted and revealed the two full moons. Light flooded the grove and revealed the colors of the werewolf’s fur. It was mostly grey, but its head was black and there were shots of brown running along its limbs. Aelys and Svenjo were both paler than ice in face of the monster. What could they, two lightly built Nords with only a dagger and a bow, do against such a beast? It was hopeless… Even Narji could see that.

Aelys notched an arrow to her bow and fired. The arrow –a finely crafted steel arrow from the Windhelm blacksmith- planted itself firmly in the werewolf’s shoulder. It roared –the beast sounded like a cross between an oversized troll and a wolf- and charged; before she could react, the werewolf swung the back of one of its gigantic hands into her and sent the poor woman flying. She went more than ten feet backwards. When she impacted a rock, a sickening snap was heard across the grove. Aelys, her spine and limbs twisted and broken, went limp immediately. Svenjo screamed.

What he did was foolish. Dagger in hand, Svenjo stood his ground as the werewolf rushed forward; he could not adequately defend himself. Claws met flesh and the sound of tearing fabric sliced like a blade through the air. The dagger fell from Svenjo’s hand just as he fell to his knees, warm innards spilling onto the ground in front of him. His blood stained the ground around him and the man stared at his intestines, not quite comprehending what had just happened. He looked up at the werewolf. It bared its fangs, gleaming white in the moonlight, and plowed the dying Svenjo to the ground. Hot saliva dripped onto the man’s gullet as the werewolf ripped the flesh away. The remainder of Svenjo’s blood burst out of wound with every last beat of his heart. Not wanting to waste any blood, the werewolf lapped up the blood that pooled in the ruin of the man’s throat.

Once the blood was gone, the werewolf bit into the dead man’s chest and pulled his ribs away in one motion, the gut-wrenching cracking sound nearly making Narji vomit. It pushed past the lungs and yanked at the man’s heart; the werewolf swallowed it whole. Sniffing, the beast turned to face Aelys. She opened her eyes –clouded with pain and a fear beyond the understanding of Narji- and looked past the werewolf to where Narji was crouching.

“Narji… Run…”

She couldn’t. Narji could only watch as the werewolf sniffed at her mother’s belly, snarled, and dug its claws in. Aelys screamed… Not from pain (as she couldn’t feel anything below her chest), but from the combined losses of her husband, her unborn son, and her own life. The sound angered the werewolf and it grasped Aelys’ head. With one brutal twist, it broke her neck. It then fed on her heart as it had with Svenjo; the organ was still twitching as the werewolf swallowed it.

It was strange… Not long ago, Narji had been listening to that. She had known what that heart had sounded like. And… She knew that she would now never have a brother. The little girl wanted to cry, but no tears were coming; she knew she had to flee… Just as her mother had said. There was no time to cry.

Narji hopped away from the rock and ran. Behind her, she heard the monster growl, then bark. Heavy footsteps pounded towards her like her heart pounded in her ears; there was no chance that she would be able to outrun the beast. Knife in hand, Narji turned to make her last stand. She believed she was going to die… After witnessing the deaths of her entire family, Narji would have welcomed any end to the nightmare.

The two golden orbs locked onto the little child. Great strands of drool swung back and forth under the werewolf’s jowls. Its nostrils flared as it sniffed at Narji; she quivered in front of it, blood nearly frozen in fright. The beast raised its claws –at least six inches long and as sharp as a good blade- and raked them across little Narji’s face. She screamed in agony as the claws ripped into flesh and bit into bone, starting on the left side of her head and running down to her right jaw. Hot blood ran down her face; it poured off of her jaw in little waterfalls of blood and soaked her clothes. Her blood flew through the air in glistening specks as the impact of the werewolf’s claws drove her to the ground. Narji barely held onto the knife… But it was all she needed.

Furiously blinking the blood from her eyes, Narji spotted the werewolf opening its jaws and beginning its forward lunge. The little Nord –not strong enough or big enough to bring down a large werewolf on her own- managed to use the beast’s own momentum to her advantage. She lifted the hunting knife and held it out, inside the monster’s open maw. It drove the knife into its own mouth; the blade went deep into the werewolf’s brain, severing major blood vessels and damaging the brain itself. The force of the blow made something in Narji’s arm crack, but she held onto the knife. There was no way she was letting go.

With one last howl, the werewolf bounded away from the child, blood flying from the frothing saliva in its mouth. It shook its head violently, chunks of blood clots falling away, to try and clear its airways. The beast coughed and sputtered, but nothing could be done. IT had sealed its own fate… After several seconds, the werewolf collapsed and didn’t move again.

Narji was numb. She was aware that she was bleeding heavily, but it didn’t matter… Her parents were dead. Her unborn brother never had a chance to exist. She had lost everything. Even her childhood… After surviving an attack like that, how could she ever hope to be a child again? She had seen things most adults never did.

She couldn’t face it. With her doll in her left hand and the knife in her right, she stood from the spot where she fell and began walking towards the river. Narji didn’t know why she was heading in that direction, but her feet insisted upon carrying her there. Despite all the pain she was in, she knew that leaving was her only hope. She would die if she didn’t find help soon.

But what was there to live for?
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Dohva. »

Finn: Ick, sorry you lost your first post! I've had that happen a few times too which is why I copy my post if I've been taking a while.

And don't worry, Sylmirie will only marry Aicantar. He's an Altmer worthy of her heart. If a bit soft in the personality area but being a talented mage helps her forget about that. As for her becoming a werewolf...at this point I'm not sure. It is something that I can assume would be beneath her but she ultimately will make that choice if/when she gets to that point of the questline. She hasn't technically joined the Companions yet. She was offended by Aela's comment of "...if you think you're better than us...". Well, of course she is. So she had to prove it. But she's off doing her own thing right now and I suspect it will remain that way for a while.

The reason Lieth even married Vilkas is because she likes a good animalistic bedding and fiery romances. Is she in love with him? I can't really say. She's fond of him and thinks he's a good man with a brutal view of the world which pleases her. She admires his courage and skill in battle. But her heart belongs to the wilds and Vilkas can't even tame her. She's a dragon after all. I totally forgot about that particular story! Her werewolf tidbits were some of my favorite to write.

I'm glad you've been working on Marilyn's next tale. I'm curious to know more about her childhood. :)
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Finn Wolfshorn »

Dohva, looks like you're lucky because I 'm planning another story (a shorter one, I hope) from Marilyn's childhood after I finish the current one. And a few more about key episodes of her past and her career in the Brotherhood... and another story with Serana in it. Enough to keep me writing for a year at my pace. :D

Mauin, I think your story has profited from the rewrite. I like that we see a bit more of Aelys and Svenjo*, how they interact with each other, what kind of a family Narji comes from, and the longer buildup to the werewolf attack, the creepy silence creating suspense, and culminating in Narji's eye-contact with the werewolf. I guess the latter was probably how you imagined it from the beginning, but mentioning the golden orbs explicitly was a good idea because the moment is mirrored later when the hermit sees Narji's eyes turn golden as she transforms.

The elements you've added work well IMO. Foreshadowing Narji's Dragonborn future by having her "play dragon" is a cute idea, I saw her clearly in my mind screaming and waving her arms, very adorable and very six-year-old. Please tell me she's going to return to this site when she's older and find the toy dragon! Or better still, don't tell me but just do it. :wink: The doll gave Narji something to hold on to in the end, that was a good idea too.
I agree that Aelys's pregnancy serves a function in giving Narji a motive to become a warrior in her unborn brother's stead (although I'm not sure why he would necessarily have become a warrior, he could have followed in his parents' footsteps and been a hunter too, or am I missing something?). The reason I was wary about it was that I dreaded some gorey description of baby being ripped from mother's womb and devoured before her breaking eyes or some such, and Narji watching the werewolf eat her mother's still beating heart was already enough in that department, but you handled the scene OK IMO.

Speaking of description, I like the visual detail you've added compared to the first version, the description of the natural setting in the beginning, I just love that sort of stuff. A little less enthusiastic about the amount of detail in Narji's struggle with the werewolf, "blood flew through the air in glistening specks" - I mean, well done imagining such details, but it takes a little of the despair and urgency out of the scene because none of the participants would notice something like that. Maybe that was a conscious decision and you were going for a slow motion effect, but what works on the screen doesn't necessarily work as well in a written story - it puts the reader in the position of an external observer when we should be involved in what's happening. Or that's how it seems to me.

Finally, when Narji holds up the knife and the werewolf drives it into its brain by its own momentum - Samwise and Shelob all over again, isn't it?. I love a Tolkien reference, conscious or not.

*(Oh yes, Svenjo. I can't quite get over his name, in my mind it would be fitting for a Nord-Khajiit-Dunmer hybrid, but that's just me.)
Eine insel mit nur einem berg, doch der ist innen heiß
Und spuckt asche, pest und corprus, wo kein mensch 'ne kur für weiß -
Ja, wie mag die insel heißen, von Vivec bis Dagon Fel?
Jeder sollte einmal reisen in das schöne Vvardenfell!

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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Mauin »

Finn Wolfshorn wrote: Mauin, I think your story has profited from the rewrite. I like that we see a bit more of Aelys and Svenjo*, how they interact with each other, what kind of a family Narji comes from, and the longer buildup to the werewolf attack, the creepy silence creating suspense, and culminating in Narji's eye-contact with the werewolf. I guess the latter was probably how you imagined it from the beginning, but mentioning the golden orbs explicitly was a good idea because the moment is mirrored later when the hermit sees Narji's eyes turn golden as she transforms.

The elements you've added work well IMO. Foreshadowing Narji's Dragonborn future by having her "play dragon" is a cute idea, I saw her clearly in my mind screaming and waving her arms, very adorable and very six-year-old. Please tell me she's going to return to this site when she's older and find the toy dragon! Or better still, don't tell me but just do it. :wink: The doll gave Narji something to hold on to in the end, that was a good idea too.
I agree that Aelys's pregnancy serves a function in giving Narji a motive to become a warrior in her unborn brother's stead (although I'm not sure why he would necessarily have become a warrior, he could have followed in his parents' footsteps and been a hunter too, or am I missing something?). The reason I was wary about it was that I dreaded some gorey description of baby being ripped from mother's womb and devoured before her breaking eyes or some such, and Narji watching the werewolf eat her mother's still beating heart was already enough in that department, but you handled the scene OK IMO.

Speaking of description, I like the visual detail you've added compared to the first version, the description of the natural setting in the beginning, I just love that sort of stuff. A little less enthusiastic about the amount of detail in Narji's struggle with the werewolf, "blood flew through the air in glistening specks" - I mean, well done imagining such details, but it takes a little of the despair and urgency out of the scene because none of the participants would notice something like that. Maybe that was a conscious decision and you were going for a slow motion effect, but what works on the screen doesn't necessarily work as well in a written story - it puts the reader in the position of an external observer when we should be involved in what's happening. Or that's how it seems to me.

Finally, when Narji holds up the knife and the werewolf drives it into its brain by its own momentum - Samwise and Shelob all over again, isn't it?. I love a Tolkien reference, conscious or not.

*(Oh yes, Svenjo. I can't quite get over his name, in my mind it would be fitting for a Nord-Khajiit-Dunmer hybrid, but that's just me.)
It's still not how I imagined it, but that's as close as I can get without falling asleep while writing it.

Well, that can't really happen. The dragon toy was left in a chest in the Black-Talon home (I was considering using Hjerim for that purpose). As far as I can see, the house and all items inside would have been sold after a while. Including the dragon toy. I have a few things in mind, but I won't say anything.
The idea of her brother becoming a warrior was just what Narji felt. He could have easily chosen a different path, but he never had a chance to live. Narji sticks with what she feels.

The blood detail slipped out. I was just... Letting it flow. It ran out on its own with no particular reasoning behind it.
It's tempting to keep going like that. The werewolf would have been able to see it, but his view doesn't matter. Not unless you want to know what it's like to die from a werewolf's perspective.

I wasn't thinking of Tolkien when I did that. I was more thinking that a six year old girl wouldn't have the strength to push a knife through bone. She would have had to use the werewolf's own lunge in order to kill it, and she suffers consequences for that (a broken arm). It was the only way she could have brought the beast down; otherwise she would have wound up like her parents.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Finn Wolfshorn »

Yeah, I guessed the parallel to Tolkien might be a coincidence. The situations were just similar - a comparably weak and small creature struggling with a monster many times stronger and using the monster's own strength to kill it with a blade - so I was reminded of that scene in Lord of the Rings. Just an observation.

About Hjerim, I dunno, how well-to-do are the Black-Talons? Do they hunt for a living or just as a pastime? For if it's the former I doubt they could afford a house like Hjerim; the decrepit state we find it in during Blood on the Ice is deceiving - it's a grand mansion, fitting for a thane.

Also I noticed on rereading that you've sinned against a pet peeve of mine:
Aelys notched an arrow to her bow and fired.
No, she didn't. She loosed it. Guns are fired because they work by igniting powder and letting the force of the explosion propel the projectile. With bows there's no ignition, hence no firing. To fire a bow would mean to burn it. But about 90% of amateur fantasy writers get that wrong (and some professionals too, I'll wager), so you're in good company. :P
Eine insel mit nur einem berg, doch der ist innen heiß
Und spuckt asche, pest und corprus, wo kein mensch 'ne kur für weiß -
Ja, wie mag die insel heißen, von Vivec bis Dagon Fel?
Jeder sollte einmal reisen in das schöne Vvardenfell!

[rimg]http://www.elderstats.com/statcard/4338.gif[/rimg][rimg]http://www.elderstats.com/statcard/4738.gif[/rimg]
[rimg]http://www.elderstats.com/statcard/4466.gif[/rimg]
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Zephyr »

Finn Wolfshorn wrote:Also I noticed on rereading that you've sinned against a pet peeve of mine:
Aelys notched an arrow to her bow and fired.
No, she didn't. She loosed it. Guns are fired because they work by igniting powder and letting the force of the explosion propel the projectile. With bows there's no ignition, hence no firing. To fire a bow would mean to burn it. But about 90% of amateur fantasy writers get that wrong (and some professionals too, I'll wager), so you're in good company. :P
For what it's worth, I think the word choice does work, especially since this is a fantasy story. It could represent the firelight, which has an important presence. It's a spark of hope against the night, short-lived but not insignificant. This section is telling.
Mauin wrote:The moment the fire had gone out, darkness had crept over the grove. Not the darkness of night, but a shadow of something else; Narji felt as though something was out there, stalking the inky gloom of that stormy night.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Dohva. »

Zephyr wrote:For what it's worth, I think the word choice does work, especially since this is a fantasy story.

Mmm...no. Even though its a fantasy story, the proper terms for things still should be used. Bows are not fired. Guns are, as Finn already explained. Its a common mistake though.

Zephyr wrote:It could represent the firelight, which has an important presence. It's a spark of hope against the night, short-lived but not insignificant.
Maybe if Aelys had used a magical arrow of some sort then it would apply in the way you're suggesting.
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Re: The TES Roleplayer's Thread

Post by Zephyr »

Dohva. wrote:
Zephyr wrote:For what it's worth, I think the word choice does work, especially since this is a fantasy story.

Mmm...no. Even though its a fantasy story, the proper terms for things still should be used. Bows are not fired. Guns are, as Finn already explained. Its a common mistake though.

Zephyr wrote:It could represent the firelight, which has an important presence. It's a spark of hope against the night, short-lived but not insignificant.
Maybe if Aelys had used a magical arrow of some sort then it would apply in the way you're suggesting.
Sorry, but I still disagree. I don't believe there is any "should" in creative writing, and symbolism can be extended to diction. In the words of Richard Hugo, "You owe reality nothing, and the truth about your feelings everything."
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