Was "Versidue-Shaie" a human?

[ThreePounds]

Hello UESP Forum readers!

I recently started playing The Elder Scrolls games and I was reading on the Lore wiki pages. I started reading the History pages and I stumbled across this character who lived in the late 1E / early 2E.

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A prominent Akaviri Potentate of the late First Era. He took over the Imperial throne after Reman III died, and declared martial law. In the Second Era, the Potentate had The Rose built on the ruins of Blackrose, which was still the most secure and notorious prison on Tamriel by the end of the Third Era.[6] He passed the Guild Act in 2E 321, three years before his death, allowing what would become the Fighters Guild to be formed so merchants and vassals could protect themselves in lieu of a standing army.[7][8] The Guild Act also ratified other guilds, notably the Mages Guild.[9] He was assassinated in Senchal, apparently by the Morag Tong, as their name was drawn on the wall in the Potentate's blood.[10][11][12] He was then succeeded by his heir, Savirien-Chorak.[7] He was a character in the popular historical fiction 2920, The Last Year of the First Era.

Source

While reading this I was under the impression that Potentate Versidue-Shaie was a human, but how did he become more than 321 years old? Is there something I am missing?

I know this a rather small detail, but it sort of threw me off.

[AKB]

Take note of the third word: "Akaviri"

Specifically, if I recall correctly, he was described as being a Tsaesci

[ThreePounds]

Okay, thanks for pointing this out. I see now that he wasn't human, which explains his age.

There are so many new words for me to learn that I loose overview and wrote Akaviri off as some sort of personal name.

Thank you!

[Pilaf The Defiler]

He was a Tsaesci, from Akavir.

There is no proof that Tsaesci were Human. There is also no proof they weren't. This is one of those areas of lore that's been left purposely obscure and contradictory by official lore so far. The sources don't agree on the nature of Akaviri people at all.

[Celtyk]

He was a Tsaesci, from Akavir.

There is no proof that Tsaesci were Human. There is also no proof they weren't. This is one of those areas of lore that's been left purposely obscure and contradictory by official lore so far. The sources don't agree on the nature of Akaviri people at all.

It is actually complicated. Sometimes, Akaviri people are described as humans, though on other sources, Tsaesci for example, are described as serpent-like humanoids.

[Minor Edits]

In Interview with Three Writers, the Carlovac Townway character (author of the 2920 series) implicitly admits that the description of the Tsaesci is doubted by some. He cites the plethora of references to their serpentine character, and insisted that there were so many accounts from so many diverse sources that the idea that they were snakes cannot be construed as metaphorical. But the door is left open.

Fundamentally, though, if the Tsaesci=human, that would be not only Boring and Therefore Wrong, but also incredibly disappointing. If enslaved human or humanoid serfs and warriors were incorporated into a Tsaesci caste system, with the snakes at the top of the totem pole, I could live with that. It would actually make more sense because it would explain various things, like the humanoid Akaviri warrior ghosts in Oblivion.

But if there are no snake-like Tsaesci at all, that would be a huge missed opportunity. They're going to want enemies in future games to be dynamic and interesting, and the Tsaesci should be able to easily accomplish that goal. The devs do have this perverse incentive to make the Tsaesci humanoid, as they would be easier to model and incorporate into a game, but I think doing so would be like throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The problem with citing a source for evidence when it comes to Akaviri is that there's always another source. Here's a much more recent one, in which King Emeric, who lived much closer to the Akaviri Potentates than Townway, refers to them as Men. (In the reply to my question about the Potentates, specifically.)

I personally think the truth is going to be somewhere between the two extremes that people propose, but I'd prefer the Akaviri races never actually be depicted on screen. They work better as an unknown element.

[Leckan]

I believe the Tsaesci to humans, or more specifically, to be Asians.

Most sources seem to paint them as such; Alduin's wall, the spirits/skeletons of Akaviri warriors from Oblivion, etc. Most comments of them being serpent-people stem from rumors and metaphor in the lore.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

While I personally think simply making them Samurai-esque Humans with Asian facial features would be almost boringly cliche', this artwork from ESO seems to support it. Note that this is based on descriptions of supposed Akaviri warriors by an Imperial explorer, and no nationality is specified. The Fighters Guild armors in ESO are based on this design. (The lighter ones are more ninja-esque). Note that the Fighters Guild was founded by actual Tsaesci, so if they do indeed use armor like this we can infer that it's plausible the Tsaesci actually could and did wear armor, despite lore to the contrary, and it was kind of Samurai-esque. (In fact, far more so than the Blades armor of the Third and Fourth eras, which more closely resembled later Roman styles.)

[Baron Praxis]

...the spirits/skeletons of Akaviri warriors from Oblivion...

Where in Oblivion were there any Akaviri ghosts or skeletons?

[Minor Edits]

The Pale Pass quest.

[Imbalance]

I don't think Akaviri and Tsaesci should be considered any more synonymous than Tamrielic and Argonian. Some source explains that there were men on Akavar, and that the snake folk ate them.

[Leckan]

While I personally think simply making them Samurai-esque Humans with Asian facial features would be almost boringly cliche', this artwork from ESO seems to support it. Note that this is based on descriptions of supposed Akaviri warriors by an Imperial explorer, and no nationality is specified. The Fighters Guild armors in ESO are based on this design. (The lighter ones are more ninja-esque). Note that the Fighters Guild was founded by actual Tsaesci, so if they do indeed use armor like this we can infer that it's plausible the Tsaesci actually could and did wear armor, despite lore to the contrary, and it was kind of Samurai-esque. (In fact, far more so than the Blades armor of the Third and Fourth eras, which more closely resembled later Roman styles.)

Interesting link.

While I too would like the Tsaesci to be something more fantastic than another race of humans, it does seem to be leaning that way.

The other races of Akavir are probably just as described though: Ka Po Tun the Tiger people, Tang Mo the Moneky people, and Kamal the Snow Demons. Seems like an interesting continent.

[Dark Spark]

Imagine a metafictional portal between Tamriel and Earth just opened up and the Imperial Legion just sent forces through to "secure" our end. Orsimer are significant part of the Legion, and most likely make up the majority of the "first-in" force that came pouring through.

What would be the first impression us lowly Earthlings would have, then? Tamriel is full of warriors with green-skin, tusks and pointy ears.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I kinda like the theory that a combination of demonic looking face masks and foreign martial arts/magic arts caused ignorant, frightened Tamrielic soldiers to mistake the Tsaesci and Kamal for demons and beast people.

[Imbalance]

Possibly. But in a world where one routinely sees and interacts with upright-walking lizard men, vampiric snake men may not be such a shock to encounter, let alone fully recognize and later describe what they are.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Like I said, they're far more consistently described as humanoids than snake people without legs. That full description is really only ever used in 2920, a book by an author who admittedly is more interested in a good story than historical accuracy. Keep in mind his descriptions of the Tribunal members look nothing like they're presented in TES III at all, either. His Vivec is "a tall Dunmer in a red robe." Sotha Sil isn't a cyborg, and wears a white robe. I wouldn't put a ton of stock or faith in his description of the Tsaesci, for that reason. All of the events he describes happened really far back in history, before he was born. The warriors he spoke of from Uriel V's campaign to Akavir described Tsaesci for him, in an interview, but they were very old at the time, and they were probably outnumbered and frightened when they actually fought them.

[legoless]

The warriors he spoke of from Uriel V's campaign to Akavir described Tsaesci for him, in an interview, but they were very old at the time, and they were probably outnumbered and frightened when they actually fought them.

Really? Where is that from?

[Minor Edits]

Like I said, they're far more consistently described as humanoids than snake people without legs. That full description is really only ever used in 2920, a book by an author who admittedly is more interested in a good story than historical accuracy. Keep in mind his descriptions of the Tribunal members look nothing like they're presented in TES III at all, either. His Vivec is "a tall Dunmer in a red robe." Sotha Sil isn't a cyborg, and wears a white robe. I wouldn't put a ton of stock or faith in his description of the Tsaesci, for that reason. All of the events he describes happened really far back in history, before he was born. The warriors he spoke of from Uriel V's campaign to Akavir described Tsaesci for him, in an interview, but they were very old at the time, and they were probably outnumbered and frightened when they actually fought them.

Yeah, but I wanna see snake people. :p

No offense, that just seems to be a Fal Droon-ish argument. A reasonable conclusion that nevertheless relies on unwarranted skepticism, as it presumes a world of more limited possibility.

When we finally, unambiguously see the Tsaesci, I fully expect that game will include some text giving essentially the same argument you are, and another giving the opposite perspective, a pattern we've seen many times. I expect and hope, for the sake of that game and the franchise, that your book gets lumped with The Dragon Break Reexamined and The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy. Because otherwise, the game would likely be less fun, and that's what it's all about.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The warriors he spoke of from Uriel V's campaign to Akavir described Tsaesci for him, in an interview, but they were very old at the time, and they were probably outnumbered and frightened when they actually fought them.

Really? Where is that from?

I'm late to reply to this, but it's from Interview with Three Writers.

There are very old warriors, survivors of Uriel V's ill-fated invasion, and they told me what they saw. I stand by my descriptions that the Akavir Potentates were serpentine, not only in temperament, but in physical appearance. Even if I did not have witnesses, there are too many descriptions of them as snakes to assume that all writers used the same metaphor. There is much in Redguard history which suggests ancient connections to the Tsaesci as well. Not only are many of the greatest heroes clearly influenced by Akaviri as well as Redguard culture - Gaiden Shinji, for example - But the whole cult of Satakal and the dungeon called Fang Lair... It is too coincidental. We are a rare generation in Tamriel, when few of us have seen any denizen of Akavir. I suspect that we're lucky in that. The Maormer are a minor race, and don't interest me at all.

[AKB]

Akaviri lore should remain fairly undefined. Akavir, to me, represents how Europeans saw Asia for most of history. That is, extremely mysterious, terrifying whenever contact between the two are made, and, above all else, foreign. I wouldn't be shocked if Bethesda actually has a written rule in their developer guide for the series to avoid actually showing us concrete details of Akavir.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Lawrence Schick said something to that effect on the AMA. That he's only allowed to write so much about Akavir, and is forbidden to show anything, when it comes to ESO. At least currently.

[Jeancey]

I've always viewed them as snake-folk. There are PLENTY of examples of them being described as Snake-folk. Mysterious Akavir describes "vampiric Serpent Folk of Tsaesci", History of the Fighters Guild mentions the "immortal snake men of Tsaesci", The Sermons of Vivec, Sermon 17 says "The Tsaesci serpents", PGE calls them the "Akaviri Snakemen", 2920 implies that the Potentate is somewhat bestial in nature, but I think the most convincing evidence of the current state of this argument comes from brand new ESO books such as "Against the Snakes" in which a veteran of the Second Akaviri Invasion describes the war, and calls them Snakes multiple times, mentions Tiger demons, and says the Snakes "rolled" past Riften. Chronicles of the Five Companions 8 mentions the "scaly feet of those detestable snake people." The Time of the Ebonheart Pact decries the "Snake-Men of Akavir"

What's my point here? Basically, there is way too much evidence to discount that the Tsaesci are a race of scaly snake-people similar to how the Argonians are lizards. Clearly, they have feet (as mentioned in Chronicle of the Five Companions), but they aren't simply Asians or other normal humans. They are Snakes, just as Argonians are Lizards, Khajiit are Cats and Imga are Apes. I don't understand why everyone hates to agree with this view. I just don't understand where it comes from...

[Br3admax]

To throw a wrench in that, Akaviri lived in Tamriel for centuries and interbreed with the population. We've also seen the ghost of Tsaesci. All human. There may be "snakemen," in Akavir, but they aren't the Tsaesci that came to Tamriel or the ones that stayed. They were able to be differentiated from the native Tamrielic races, but they were undoubtedly human and attractive enough ones at that. Plenty of Imperials today talk fondly of their "Akaviri" features, sharp cheekbones like a snake but definitely not scales and the like. I don't think most Nibenese want to be snakes.

[Jeancey]

To throw a wrench in that, Akaviri lived in Tamriel for centuries and interbreed with the population. We've also seen the ghost of Tsaesci. All human. There may be "snakemen," in Akavir, but they aren't the Tsaesci that came to Tamriel or the ones that stayed. They were able to be differentiated from the native Tamrielic races, but they were undoubtedly human and attractive enough ones at that. Plenty of Imperials today talk fondly of their "Akaviri" features, sharp cheekbones like a snake but definitely not scales and the like. I don't think most Nibenese want to be snakes.

It could also be that Tsaesci in Tamriel took on a more of a faction-type thing. Just like the Thalmor isn't a race, but a faction. Perhaps the Snake-men decided that using humans as representatives made interactions with the native population easier than if they did it himself. Tsaesci is a land in Akavir, just as Black Marsh is a land in Tamriel. There is a human population in Black Marsh that has lived there for hundreds if not thousands of years. If they went to Akavir, and said they were from Argonia, the Akaviri might call them Argonians. Actual Argonians are also Argonians. Their army may have been simply lead by the Snake-Men, but made up of mainly humans. Remember, most of the sources say "the Snake-men of Tsaesci" or some variation, which may indicate that they are simply one of the races of that land. But to say that there are no Snake-people, scaly etc, simply seems unlikely given the evidence.