Ulfric's Duel

[Dark Spark]

Is one man's personal honour worth the lives of the subjects under his rule? Worthy of the homesteads razed, the families destroyed, the bonds of brotherhood that were severed forever in the bloodshed and fire that ensued with his choice? He had to know that would have been the outcome of his death rather than his abdication.

Ulfric certainly brought the kindling for the pyre that the Empire and the Thalmor set for them, but it was Torygg who dropped the torch.

[LordAshton]

My opinion on the duel is that it means nothing. The moot decides the High King, not a duel. The duel only gives legitimacy to the CANDIDACY for High King. If the Jarls Chose Elisif, Ulfric's "claim" is not a claim, but a complaint.

[spin]

My opinion on the duel is that it means nothing. The moot decides the High King, not a duel. The duel only gives legitimacy to the CANDIDACY for High King. If the Jarls Chose Elisif, Ulfric's "claim" is not a claim, but a complaint.

then he'd need to challenge Elisif, and then if they pick someone else, challenge them and so on until he is picked. or he could just kill everyone in the moot and claim he is the new moot and can give himself the title.

[LordAshton]

My opinion on the duel is that it means nothing. The moot decides the High King, not a duel. The duel only gives legitimacy to the CANDIDACY for High King. If the Jarls Chose Elisif, Ulfric's "claim" is not a claim, but a complaint.

then he'd need to challenge Elisif, and then if they pick someone else, challenge them and so on until he is picked. or he could just kill everyone in the moot and claim he is the new moot and can give himself the title.

funny, but would probably happen. In the end, the Duel does nothing unless the moot chooses him for the position, which is why the Civil War is needed by Ulfric in the first place.

[spin]

Is one man's personal honour worth the lives of the subjects under his rule? Worthy of the homesteads razed, the families destroyed, the bonds of brotherhood that were severed forever in the bloodshed and fire that ensued with his choice? He had to know that would have been the outcome of his death rather than his abdication.

Ulfric certainly brought the kindling for the pyre that the Empire and the Thalmor set for them, but it was Torygg who dropped the torch.

I think it would be highly likely that there would have been a civil war if Torygg had abdicated. there would have been a power vacuum and Ulfric would have wanted to make sure he was picked to be the next high king, and a show of force would have been necessary to prove his capability. it could have even been worse, as other people might have gotten the same idea. At least with accepting the duel, everyone knew the outcome and could prepare for it. Abdication would most likely resulted in complete chaos.

[Dark Spark]

It's hard to rally folks under a war banner to battle the impeacher of kings...

[Chessalavakia]

Personally, I always wondered why Sybille Stentor didn't get involved.

[MidbossVyers]

Involved how? Being a vampire doesn't make you omnipotent. Even Unrelenting Force alone is a powerful Shout.

[Chessalavakia]

Killing someone then getting away at close range isn't necessarily easy.

[Dark Spark]

Personally, I always wondered why Sybille Stentor didn't get involved.

Ulfric probably dropped a handful of seeds in front of her and she felt compelled to clean it all up.

[rcbecker123]

The challenge rule is very old this may have been before they had moots and the system was changed which is why it was not excepted by many.

[Dark Spark]

Just because it's older doesn't mean it supercedes later laws and customs. Quite the contrary, in fact. The reason those laws came afterwards most likely stemmed from correcting faults in the older argument.

[MidbossVyers]

Yes, but if a law is officially repealed or rewritten, then an official proclamation should be made, rather than simply "overwriting" with another law and hoping no one adheres to the old one.

[Archer]

Still, we don't know how old these laws are, or even what they say exactly. All we know is what is told to us by the two sides, and what we can conclude on our own.

[Yojji]

"...Ulfric brings a bazooka to a gunfight..."

A very interesting point, and probably why, in many Earth cultures, a disinterested third party is tasked with bringing identical weapons for the duellists to use. It eliminates speculation about what may have happened had the duellists been equivalently armed.

[LordAshton]

Still, we don't know how old these laws are, or even what they say exactly. All we know is what is told to us by the two sides, and what we can conclude on our own.

This is true, especially since we do not know if Skyrim still adheres to the old ways or not. That is why I do not consider it a duel or murder, but Ulfric killing Torygg.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Since Skyrim has been a part of the Empire for eight hundred years, I'd say it's pretty clear they don't follow a majority of the old ways any more. Hell, they probably haven't since Reman's day. What Ulfric did was as out of place in Tamriel as if two U.S. Residential hopefuls had a pistol or sabre duel to decide who gets it. Something that was common even a hundred years ago seems laughably obsolete now.

[MidbossVyers]

Well, Ulfric's claim is that the Empire has abandoned Nord customs. Therefore, if the Empire makes the act of dueling itself illegal, then all that does is prove Ulfric right. Both sides are fighting with the given that the bulk of Nord traditions are not wrong.

[Sirocco]

Its fairly obvious that when ulfric challenged the high king every notable figure in solitude and skyrim, decided it is according to the nord laws and traditions, otherwise it wouldnt have happened.
This is why ulfric made it out of the city without killing anyone else. That very day what ulfric did was just and traditional nord way to succeed the throne, when it is occupied by someone unfit to rule.
The empire seeing that this event would cost them skyrim, changed this with propaganda. They took advantage of the wife's grief and proclaimed that imperial law which supports succession by assassination, is superior to nord laws and traditions which supports succession by fair fight based on the skills of the fighters.
What the empire did was the classic divide and conquer strategy tailored to an upcoming rebelion. A province is about to secede? Ridicule its culture, change its tradition, call them barbarians, mad men, while you spread your own propaganda of civilized ways.
Simple.

[Dark Spark]

Slight tickle there: the fellow who bests the High King in the challenge (either by defeat or forfeiture) doesn't gain the throne through that victory.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Well, Ulfric's claim is that the Empire has abandoned Nord customs. Therefore, if the Empire makes the act of dueling itself illegal, then all that does is prove Ulfric right. Both sides are fighting with the given that the bulk of Nord traditions are not wrong.

Except dueling isn't one of the traditions he's talking about. He objects to the perceived diminished authority of Jarls in favor of their Imperial sponsors, and what he views as the insult of outlawing Talos worship (which was never actually enforced until the rebellion began, a point I can't possibly stress enough. He created the problem he rails against.) Dueling is likely so far in the past as to be considered laughably archaic for most Nords, who have enjoyed many centuries of peace and prosperity as Imperial citizens. This point I can also not stress enough. Dueling to solve personal issues, especially for nobles, is probably as obsolete in Skyrim as wearing powdered wigs is in our own world. It's not a dying tradition. It's a dead tradition. It's a mummified tradition. He's not a conservative, but a philosophical necromancer, reviving something long dead that died for reason. He had no more effective legal basis to kill Torygg than you or I would to walk up to a governor or congressman with a loaded pistol and shoot them. It was an act of murder and terrorism, pure and simple.

[Sirocco]

Except dueling isn't one of the traditions he's talking about. He objects to the perceived diminished authority of Jarls in favor of their Imperial sponsors, and what he views as the insult of outlawing Talos worship (which was never actually enforced until the rebellion began, a point I can't possibly stress enough. He created the problem he rails against.) Dueling is likely so far in the past as to be considered laughably archaic for most Nords, who have enjoyed many centuries of peace and prosperity as Imperial citizens. This point I can also not stress enough. Dueling to solve personal issues, especially for nobles, is probably as obsolete in Skyrim as wearing powdered wigs is in our own world. It's not a dying tradition. It's a dead tradition. It's a mummified tradition. He's not a conservative, but a philosophical necromancer, reviving something long dead that died for reason. He had no more effective legal basis to kill Torygg than you or I would to walk up to a governor or congressman with a loaded pistol and shoot them. It was an act of murder and terrorism, pure and simple.

Could you provide references to your stressed points, because as far as I understand one of the main reason for the rebellion was the white-gold concordat.
So do tell where does it say you were allowed to freely AND !legaly! worship talos. Because personaly, I see no difference between outlawing judaism and persecuting jews.
Also when the high king answered to his challenge, he also became the so called philosophical necromancer, admiting the validity of said custom. If the High King, the keeper of laws and traditions, and the faith of the nation acknowledges such tradition, than it is not a dying tradition, but a very live one.
What you just did there is called distorting propaganda.

[Dark Spark]

If you talk to Alvor (after choosing to escape Helgen with Hadvar) at the start, he'll mention that the banning of Talos worship wasn't really enforced in Skyrim. They did it rather quietly so as not to raise a stink about the issue. Alvor says that Uflric pressed the matter of Talos worship into the open (presumably by the Markarth Incident), forcing the Empire to comply with the Concordant at the Thalmor's behest.









It's like having a late-night party, and someone says "Turn the stereo down! The cops are driving by. Everybody keep quiet for a minute." Then Ulfric strolls over to the window and shouts out the window "Talos forever, man! Wooohoooo!"

Cops pull up to the door and knock. Party's over, and Ulfric gets to sit the back of the patrol car for a couple of minutes while the cops search the house. They release Ulfric, who's righteously [&@%!] because it's his house, the other partygoers are the ones who let the cops in to look around, and they found his stash. He starts railing on the others for being a bunch of punks and starts a brawl.

[Sirocco]

It's like having a late-night party, and someone says "Turn the stereo down! The cops are driving by. Everybody keep quiet for a minute." Then Ulfric strolls over to the window and shouts out the window "Talos forever, man! Wooohoooo!"

Cops pull up to the door and knock. Party's over, and Ulfric gets to sit the back of the patrol car for a couple of minutes while the cops search the house. They release Ulfric, who's righteously [&@%!] because it's his house, the other partygoers are the ones who let the cops in to look around, and they found his stash. He starts railing on the others for being a bunch of punks and starts a brawl.

No dude. Its like having a cermon in anykind of temple, while a group of fascists walk up banging on the doors because they dont like it. They call the cops, who ban the religion, because they are afraid to be beaten up by the fascists (again), and let them break in and slaughter everybody in the temple.
You can argue that ulfric is just riding the wave, but that wave was built up by the dominion AND the empire, from religious persecution and innocent blood.
Ulfric may be a [&@%!], but that barstard was born form an evil empire he served.

[Evil-i]

The Empire didn't turn Ulfric into a [&@%!]. He's a self-made [&@%!].