More corrupt: Riften or Markarth

[DragonoftheNorth]

In the eastern reaches of Skyrim lies Riften, home to the thieves guild and effectively bought and sold by the Black Briar family.
To the far west lies Markarth, where the whole city is in the Silver-Bloods' pockets and the Forsworn try to pull strings to further their own agenda.

[Dark Spark]

In Riften, the guards will look the other way.

In Markarth, the guards will 'disappear' folks who get in the way.

That's like trying to compare Sheriff Roscoe P. Coltrane with Heinrich Himmler.

[Sirocco]

Only way to compare the 2 is how professional the criminals are in each city.
Markarth is pretty much ran by the Silver-bloods. I mean if they just get wiped out, there would be a giant power-vacum in markarth. Also the markarth scheme is much bigger than just a group of pick-pockets
Riften is said to be ran by the black-briars, but that just means the meadery and they get to push people around nothing else.
Riften is rather pathetic, and this is why I refuse to do the thief guild missions. They are a bunch of pathetic low lifes and loosers, only good for raising your fighting skills on them.

[Zephyr]

Riften is said to be ran by the black-briars, but that just means the meadery and they get to push people around nothing else.

I think it goes beyond that, since Maven is essentially the Jarl, and she's open to business with the Thalmor.

[BetaB17]

To Maven, most things relate to business, whether legal or other, but I don't doubt that she is very much capable of politics and leading the public. Hence to why every believes Maven is truly in charge of Riften, not the Jarl, bc power speaks for itself. She values the need for allies, the use of fear and intimidation, and isn't afraid of letting others do her dirtier tasks <_< The fact the the Guards in Riften just turn a blind eye to petty crimes or to how some people accept these conditions certainly beats the ordeals and corruption in Markarth. Maven is smart, and while her corruption and vast means of power are wide, at least she knows how to keep order

Markarth is on the edge of a massacre, partly bc of Nordic arrogance against the Forsworn but the Silver-Bloods hardly seem to help. They aren't afraid of forcing others into submission, be it holding a high risk leader hostage or occupying a humble mine, they certainly done right to earn quick resentment. Most the the keep is under their boot, and the guard seems more fond to do their dirty work if a citizen starts to ask too many questions.. corruption 101. With some jails in Tamriel, forced labor isn't new, but Cidna nine seems like hell for bot the guilty and unlucky innocent. Most of it doesn't even seem legal <_< in a prison that has no guards whom serve the law, with the potential of a lifetime sentence in exchange for another's profit... that literally sounds like slavery. The fact alone that even the Empire finds fault with the family, attempting to take their greatest asset from them. Last I checked, the Empire hasn't been trying to take Maven's brewery, despite the fact she's even on good terms with the Thalmor. Begs the question, if Maven has so much power, influence, and illegal routes, why isn't her means of corruption deemed the greater threat or even tolerated at that?

In Riften, it's all about business, even the crime is treated with a professional tone. Markarth is just a pot that's ready to boil over bc of all the chaos. At least in Riften I can feel safe even if a thief is running away with my purse.. in Markath I would of just get a knife across the throat.. or disappeared in the night.. or find myself forced into labor only to be shiv'd the next day..

[Sirocco]

Begs the question, if Maven has so much power, influence, and illegal routes, why isn't her means of corruption deemed the greater threat or even tolerated at that?

In Riften, it's all about business, even the crime is treated with a professional tone. Markarth is just a pot that's ready to boil over bc of all the chaos. At least in Riften I can feel safe even if a thief is running away with my purse.. in Markath I would of just get a knife across the throat.. or disappeared in the night.. or find myself forced into labor only to be shiv'd the next day..

I dont even understand why maven has power over the thieves guild. Ive never done the quest line so I dont know If you become the master can you give the finger to maven but since she is essential probably not.
Anyway, the Silver-bloods are a mafia family. You could compare them to mexican drug barons, except they are in the silver bussines. They strive for power and influence. While they have a large part in the turmoil around the Reach, lets face it, they are not the cause of it. They fuel it simply by riding the wave. They are also in a bad position since markarth is in empire hands.
The Black-briars got someone in the jarls court to lower the suspicion. They dont run the town in the sense that if they were gone, not much would change.

[MidbossVyers]

Well, depends on which Silver-Blood you mean. For example, in Riften, Maven is the dictionary mafia godfather, uh, mother. If you go to the meadery (and have high enough persuasion), some of the employees fear being secretly killed by her. Meanwhile, in Markarth, yes, Thonar is also a mob boss, what with the Forsworn Conspiracy and killing anyone who finds out, but Thongvor strikes me as heavy-handed but not directly corrupt. For example, during the Sanuarach Mine, Thongvor sends his men to "convince" some of the locals to sell their land. This reminds me of, at the end of the "Wild West" era, a lot of large landowners tried to strong-arm individual cowboys to sell their land. However, those Silver-Blood mercenaries don't actually threaten physical violence on the locals, but rather just do some tough guy posturing. If Maven was placed in such a situation, I doubt she would even pay legitimate money to buy the land but rather try to find a way to murder or frame the original landowners, so she could just confiscate the land.

[Dark Spark]

For all of Maven's whispered ties to the Dark Brotherhood, it is amusing to read her frustrated note to Astrid (she's on a first-name basis with the Dark Brotherhood's leader, and still can't get an appointment!).

As for Cidhna Mine: When your prison is a for-profit business enterprise, the law is corrupted into a tool to fuel that machine.

[legoless]

For all of Maven's whispered ties to the Dark Brotherhood, it is amusing to read her frustrated note to Astrid (she's on a first-name basis with the Dark Brotherhood's leader, and still can't get an appointment!).

Well, it's not like she has a last name.

(also, link for anyone interested)

[MidbossVyers]

But is that a sign of the Black-Briar family's strength or the Dark Brotherhood's weakness? Did you notice that both crime families have color-themed names?

[DikaSmausha]

I'm going Markarth for the fact that people end up dead way more often than they do in Riften.

[Sirocco]

Well, depends on which Silver-Blood you mean. For example, in Riften, Maven is the dictionary mafia godfather, uh, mother. If you go to the meadery (and have high enough persuasion), some of the employees fear being secretly killed by her. If Maven was placed in such a situation, I doubt she would even pay legitimate money to buy the land but rather try to find a way to murder or frame the original landowners, so she could just confiscate the land.

For all of Maven's whispered ties to the Dark Brotherhood, it is amusing to read her frustrated note to Astrid (she's on a first-name basis with the Dark Brotherhood's leader, and still can't get an appointment!).

In short its all just gossip. Her son couldnt even kill a runaway girl, they suck so hard.
Nowdays even kids do the black sacrament so mavens ties are not very impressive. If you dont even need the Brotherhood to make someone disapear like the Silver-bloods do, now that is badass.
The fact is that Riftens stormcloack presence is just an opportunity for maven to lick a few imperial asses clean for the jarls position, while Markarths imperial occupation and the thalmor presence makes Silver-bloods life a bit harder.

I imagine if we could merge Riften and Markarth there would be a meeting between the Silver-bloods and Blackbriars. Maven would be like: "Im sure we could come to a profitable agreement." While the Silver-bloods "We dont negotiate with corpses" as the city guards drag the Blackbriars bodies to a massgrave to be burried with unfortunate miners.

[Mattbott]

I also voted Markarth. I found the Jarl of Riften to be pretty fair, so whilst you can argue that Maven holds most power in the city as head of a business empire and the thieves guild, her criminal activity is paradoxically not inherently corrupt, even if that activity itself involves fraudulent and dishonest actions, simply because she is not the official power in Riften (though were she to become Jarl this would probably change).

Markarth on the other hand seems to be a nearly top down manipulation of the law to protect silver blood interests. Since the silver bloods are ostensibly silver producers, the fact that so much more than mining goes on indicates a level of corruption (the dishonest activity of those in power) on an altogether different scale to the thieves guild in Riften

it's pretty close though and based on the technicality that the thieves guild are expected to be dishonest but silver miners are not. Both cities are dominated by ruthless individuals who manipulate power to their ends

[Dohva.]

I'm going Markarth for the fact that people end up dead way more often than they do in Riften.

I second this. In Markarth...as we've all seen...they will just make people disappear. This doesn't happen in Riften. And honestly, Riften is laughable with its reputation. Thugs walking in the streets? In Markarth, the most dangerous citizens wear guard uniforms.

[Jelena]

I voted Markarth for the reason you guys mentioned above.

It is all definitely way more professional and organized, and it would be very hard to openly disclose the corruption for that reason. The guards are involved, the head of the city as well, and others are too scared to do anything about it so everyone keeps quiet and nothing seems to be going wrong until those who are going against the Silver-Bloods just disappear. And that gets covered up quite well too.

On the other hand, if I was to vote for which city I LIKE better, I'd vote for Markarth nevertheless. Simply because Riften is just a waaay more pathetic version of Markarth, and for the first time visitor it looks just unwelcoming and dirty.

[MidbossVyers]

Doesn't the receptionist in the Black-Briar Meadery imply that all of his predecessors were murdered after being "fired"?

[spin]

I had been under the impression Maven had people killed before, or she at least wanted people to think she had. At any rate, it's for sure the Silver-Bloods have had people killed, and they keep the Forsworn leader in jail so they can use him for their own purposes. I don't know if Riften is less corrupt, or the players in that town just haven't taken things to the same level as Markarth. If they get everything they want without murdering, why would they resort to it? And we don't know if they would murder or not if they needed to, to get their way, although I suspect they would. It's a tough call which city is really more corrupt.

[Dark Spark]

Doesn't the receptionist in the Black-Briar Meadery imply that all of his predecessors were murdered after being "fired"?

They probably were all riding in Vald's boat on the way out of the city when it sank. Pure accident.

[DikaSmausha]

I'm going Markarth for the fact that people end up dead way more often than they do in Riften.

I second this. In Markarth...as we've all seen...they will just make people disappear. This doesn't happen in Riften. And honestly, Riften is laughable with its reputation. Thugs walking in the streets? In Markarth, the most dangerous citizens wear guard uniforms.

As it has been said, people with authority can abuse their power, and every individual in power in Markarth abuses it.

[MidbossVyers]

Thing is, the Black-Briars are canonically more invincible than the Silver-Bloods. Thonar can die as a result of the Forsworn Conspiracy, and Thongvor can be stripped of all political power as a result of the Civil War. None of the Black-Briars can be killed, and the only instance of a Black-Briar being arrested is only on the orders of another Black-Briar.

[Dohva.]

That's a good point, MidbossVyers. Hadn't thought of that. I've always wondered why the Black-Briars can't be killed without the console.

[Snail's Pace]

I voted Markarth because of Jarl Igmund's Thalmor roommates.

[MidbossVyers]

I voted Markarth because of Jarl Igmund's Thalmor roommates.

Yes, about that. How are we defining corruption? The amount of criminal activities, or are we also including legally mandated evil? Yes, the Thalmor are evil, but they are also perfectly lawful, and so their actions, while cruel, might not fit the definition of legal corruption.

[Dark Spark]

Another point to consider: any nefarious activity the Black-Briars undertake is still bound by rational motivations for business and profit. You'll never know when and if Thonar Silver-Blood will set up a massacre because of 'roid rage from all the potions his wife keeps buying for him.

And you think the Markarth establishment is corrupt when Igmund is the jarl under Imperial rule? I will never forget the first time I played out The Forsworn Conspiracy with the Stormcloaks in control of Markarth: when I entered the Shrine of Talos that one final time, Eltrys lay dead with three Stormcloaks standing over him...

...I guess that, 9 times out of 10, the trio is comprised of nameless guards. However this time the 'leader' of the three, the guy doing all the talking about cleaning up the mess, was Kai Wet-Pommel himself. When the commanding officer of the Stormcloak garrison personally frames you for the murder that he committed, you know you've got a corrupt system going here.

[MidbossVyers]

Kai Wet-Pommel from Winterhold?