Question about Aedra

[PrayingSeraph]

So, I have seen a few lore-ists on the Elder Scrolls forums say that the Aedra are dead, others say incapacitated. I am really confused. Do the Aedra still exist? Are they still gods? Last I checked, they still bless their followers, and even judge you for your sins(infamy) in Oblivion, forcing you to do a pilgrimage to their shrines. I know that the Aedra gave up much of their power to create the physical universe we know as Mundas, but do they still "exist" on Mundas, as planets? Are they still conscious due to their in-game acts? Some are saying they are dead but that not dead in the human way.

Like in general, do they still existing and are they conscious?

And if an Aedra was to die, which I have no idea if possible, would their souls go to Aetherius, which from what I gather, is the afterlife of the Elder Scrolls series like mortals? How does all this work?

I'm just kind of confused in relation to this subject. Please use human terms as much as possible for answers. Like for example, if you say they are "dead", specify on what the "dead" status means.

Thanks!

[Dark Spark]

I don't think they can take part in the workings of the world/Mundus because they became part of it. Sort of like the illustration of god making the universe like a man makes a watch: does god take an active part in making the watch run, or does he wind it up and let it run according to its design?

In this case with the Aedra, did the Aedra become the actual parts of the watch and let it run along in the way they built it?

[PrayingSeraph]

So Nirn is the "Earth" of Elder Scrolls, right? Mundas is like the solar system , which is surrounded by Oblivion, which on the other side of oblivion, is Atherius, the afterlife of sorts. Inside Mundas is a bunch of planets along with Nirn, and each one is part of one of the Eight Divines. Correct me if I am wrong with this.

Still, are the Aedra dead or alive? Lets say in a practical sense. Are they conscious? Watching and sometimes responding to their worshippers? Blessing those who pray to them? And creating artifacts at special moments like the Crusader armor from Knights of the Nine?

Like for example, my favorite Aedra Stendarr, is he watching over Nirn and his followers? Do his followers go to his "realm" or "planet" when they die? Blessing those who follow him with his power?

[Dark Spark]

From a storytelling standpoint, the Aedra would make their presence known only under extraordinary circumstances— most prayers go unanswered, casting doubt into the supplicants, until comes that critical moment in the tale where the situation is most dire. Then comes the deus ex machina.

Though at times it's been described to be an arduous task, it is far easier and more commonplace to consort with a Daedric Prince than it is to get anything from a Divine. And, most tellingly, a Daedric Prince more or less replies at their own whim.

If an Aedric response is so rare, one possibility is that it's difficult for a Divine to get through. Their sacrifice, or perhaps the veil of Oblivion, makes it nearly impossible for an Aedra to influence Mundus even if they wanted to. So they reserve what little strength they can muster only for those times it really, really counts.

[Woodhouse]

The "Aedra" means ancestors in elvish. They are literally the ancestors of the elves, and sacrificed parts of themselves to stabilize the Mundus. The most popular Aedra are the 8 divines, the ninth being Talos/Lorkhan the missing god. The 8 divines are, from what I understand, the most powerful of the aedra and are the 8 planets in Mundus other than nirn. The two moons are the corpse of Lorkhan.

Now, "dead" is a complicated word. However, they are capable of giving blessings, judging morality of mortals, being summoned, and mantled by aspiring mortals. In fact, on at least one occasion an Aedra (Triminac) was turned into a daedric prince (I suspect that was part of Magnus's plan of creation though). So they aren't really dead in the way we usually mean it, but they don't seem to be as aware and conscious as mortals and daedric princes.

Im sure that others on here will want to expand upon/better my explanation for you, but I hope this helps

[PrayingSeraph]

So, I was reading some other threads on this topic on other forums, and many are saying that they(Aedra) are dead . One person said they were dead but dreaming they were alive(how does this logically work?).

Wasn't Akatosh seen at the end if Oblivion. Sure it was his avatar using power from the souls if the emperors, but Martin specifically states its Akatosh. An avatar can't exist if Akatosh doesn't exist anymore.

In just confused, as the comments here seem to be a bit different than on other threads I've seen.

[Dunmerdude]

So, I was reading some other threads on this topic on other forums, and many are saying that they(Aedra) are dead . One person said they were dead but dreaming they were alive(how does this logically work?).

Wasn't Akatosh seen at the end if Oblivion. Sure it was his avatar using power from the souls if the emperors, but Martin specifically states its Akatosh. An avatar can't exist if Akatosh doesn't exist anymore.

In just confused, as the comments here seem to be a bit different than on other threads I've seen.

You also speak to avatars of Tiber Septim, Mara and Zenithar in Morrowind.

What you have to understand is that the Gods exist outside of time as mortals experience it. Thus they can be alive, sleeping and dead all at the same time without contradiction. Vivec actually discusses this with you when you meet him in Morrowind.

"It is like being a juggler. Things are always moving, and you learn to know where they are without even thinking about it. Only there are many, many things moving. And sometimes, like any juggler, you drop something. I'm afraid it has become a lot more a matter of dropping things lately. There's too much to do, and not enough time, and I'm losing my touch. Perhaps I'm growing old. It is a bit like being at once awake and asleep. Awake, I am here with you, thinking and talking. Asleep, I am very, very busy. Perhaps for other gods, the completely immortal ones, it is only like that being asleep. Out of time. Me, I exist at once inside of time and outside of it. It's nice never being dead, too. When I die in the world of time, then I'm completely asleep. I'm very much aware that all I have to do is choose to wake. And I'm alive again. Many times I have very deliberately tried to wait patiently, a very long, long time before choosing to wake up. And no matter how long it feels like I wait, it always appears, when I wake up, that no time has passed at all. That is the god place. The place out of time, where everything is always happening, all at once."

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The words "Aedra" and "Divines" are often used interchangeably, but they don't exactly mean the same things. "Aedra" is an old Aldmeri word meaning "Our Ancestors." Thus, it only accurately refers to Aldmeri gods. Jephre, Phynaster, Magnus, Auriel, etc. The word "Divines" is used by a number of races, and was popularized by the various Cyrodiilic Empires. In theory, it can refer to any number of pantheons, but notably the Imperial Eight, which is a synthesis of Nordic and Elven gods.

The thing all of these various gods have in common is that they're generally the strongest spirits who were involved in Convention. Unlike the Earthbones, they had enough residual spiritual energy to continue to exist as distinct minds in distinct spheres, but like the Earthbones they're "dead" and tied in with the energy and essence of Mundus. They can't usually physically manifest any more, or directly interfere in mortal affairs, but their teachings and presence can guide the hands of champions. That's how they dream - through mortals. It's symbolic.

Whether or not the Divines are always necessarily the exact same beings is what's most heavily debated. Is Zenithar the exact same entity as Z'en, who is in turn the exact same entity as Zeht? Scholars debate this type of thing endlessly. Some gods are pretty identical from culture to culture, like Mara and Dibella,but others differ widely in temperament and appearance. The Yokudan pantheon seems almost alien in comparison, with only a few direct parallels. It's possible that Tava and Kynareth are meant to represent the same old concept, for instance, but they seem pretty different from one another, and priests on both sides scoff at the comparison.

[PrayingSeraph]

So since they retained enough energy unlike the Earthbones, they exist? Like existing as in sentient consciousness? Like do their "souls" still exist, despite their body being dead? Basically like spirits who can't manifest themselves physically, but still watch the world? Am I correct here?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

They were always stronger than the spirits who are considered fully "dead", so they were able to maintain separate spheres in Aetherius, the Planets, which represents what's left of them. What wasn't fully given unto Mundus. Other than that, in the physical realm, they're utterly depleted and help "glue the bones together." The reason they can sometimes manifest and offer blessings is that there was enough left over of them to do so. That's the part that resides in the Planet or Sphere of the Divine. The rest is bound to Mundus. 99.9% of their original physical and spiritual power is depleted, but there's still that .1%, and it can be summoned in times of need, notably via Martin's blood sacrifice at the end of TES IV. Such rare and powerful rituals can actually momentarily resurrect a Divine in his full, pre-Convention form and power, but only very briefly.

[PrayingSeraph]

Yes but are the Aedra still spiritually alive? Like sentient, conscious deities that usually lack a corporeal form? I get they lack most of their original power, and that in rare times of need they will manifest themselves on Mundas, but when they aren't manifesting themselves on Mundas, are they doing usually deity-stuff? Doesn't Arkay guide the souls of the ceased into aetherius or something?

[BetaB17]

The truth is, any answer given is either lacking due to the obscure info TES loves to tease, or the answer itself defies any sense of human logic. We just simply don't know. Whenever on the topic of TES and it's greater powers, one can not hope for an ounce of understanding and solution via logic, nor an answer via philosophy it's just impossible with an impossible subject. Even Vivec, one of few who may in fact have the best understanding of this subject defies any logic we could grasp(not to mention he defies the very notion of solipsism via CHIM, which is impossible in of itself). Take a sermon with Vivec, and you'll understand just how out of touch our mentality is with what many would deem as sheer insanity, rather than knowledge beyond mortal grasp. How can dead gods dream? One can a god be both dead yet alive? We really have no explanation to this or the details of how it is so. Ever heard of the omnipotence paradox?

:

In simple form, can a omnipotent being create a rock not even it could lift? In a literal form, it could just conduct the act then lift it, stating it's god thus it is beyond our understanding, but this hardly answers the paradox but ignores to respond. In the truth of the paradox, if the being can great an object not even it could lift, then it is no longer omnipotent since something exists beyond it's power. On the other hand, if it cannot create an object beyond even it, then it cannot create anything it wills, thus ending it's perfection. Hence the paradox However, there is a solution to this without having to twist terms or ignore the whole concept.. must an omnipotent being always be omnipotent? The solution being that said being can create an object beyond it's current power while absent of omnipotence, then return to it's original state to complete the task it previously was unable to do. Essentially making the statement still valid, while effectively doing two things at once

Take the above tag in perspective with this one, how can gods be alive and dead at the same time, or dream while being dead to what mortals understand thus? Keep in mind, some spirits can exist outside of the normal flow of time, and even then our logic cannot be applied to something that defies the very concept. There is no clear answer, only headache >__<

[Dark Spark]

Omnipotence implies universality: Everything can be tied up into one neat package. Tossing fire, love, apathy, almond biscotti, a Mk. 18 oralloy bomb, the Andromeda Galaxy and Marilyn Monroe's crypt into a single bag and a god can pick it with one hand 'cuz omnipotence.

What if there is no one thing? Everything is connected, and existence comes from the interaction of many different forces clashing between stasis and motion, equality and imbalance? There is no one definition of the universe, it is rather the dance between two or more.

[Woodhouse]

They were always stronger than the spirits who are considered fully "dead", so they were able to maintain separate spheres in Aetherius, the Planets, which represents what's left of them. What wasn't fully given unto Mundus. Other than that, in the physical realm, they're utterly depleted and help "glue the bones together."

I thought that only the elven gods resided in Aetherius? I didn't think that the human gods/8 divines resided there. I mean, aren't the 8 planets in Mundus?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The Imperials believe their gods are in Aetherius, too. Oblivion and Skyrim dialogue suggests this, at more than one point. This is where mythopoeia comes into play. Both the Elves and Imperials believe in the eight Planets, and kind of waffle on whether they're technically part of Mundus, or in Aetherius. I choose the middle model that they're pockets of Mundus within Aetherius, like the Daedric planes are pocket realms within Oblivion, a sort of ocean of raw creatia.

Nowhere does it state that all of Mundus is perfectly whole and in just one sphere. It's entirely likely that it is indeed fragmented just like the Daedric planes. You definitely go through a barrier of something when you leave Nirn's atmosphere. The Mananauts called it Aetherius, so I assume that if you reach the Planets by moving through Aetherius, the model I proposed is accurate.

[Br3admax]

Yeah, I doubt it's only the elven gods, as even Sovngarde is said to be in Aetherius, where as Lorkhan is clearly not. I'm with Pilaf on the whole middle ground position. Maybe in more ways than one. Nothing says that just because their bodies are in Mundus, they can't still be in Aetherius either.

[PrayingSeraph]

The Imperials believe their gods are in Aetherius, too. Oblivion and Skyrim dialogue suggests this, at more than one point. This is where mythopoeia comes into play. Both the Elves and Imperials believe in the eight Planets, and kind of waffle on whether they're technically part of Mundus, or in Aetherius. I choose the middle model that they're pockets of Mundus within Aetherius, like the Daedric planes are pocket realms within Oblivion, a sort of ocean of raw creatia.

Nowhere does it state that all of Mundus is perfectly whole and in just one sphere. It's entirely likely that it is indeed fragmented just like the Daedric planes. You definitely go through a barrier of something when you leave Nirn's atmosphere. The Mananauts called it Aetherius, so I assume that if you reach the Planets by moving through Aetherius, the model I proposed is accurate.

That makes the most sense. I think you are right. The planets are likely no different than the deadric prince realms, instead the home of the Aedra.

[legoless]

From Nirn, the planets would appear as stars. We know this because the Necromancer's Moon (Mannimarco's planet) blocks Arkay's light once a week, and instead shines purple. Would this not make them similar to the Manga Ge, i.e. holes in the Mundus through which Aetherius can be seen?

[Woodhouse]

Serana at one point does state that the Elven Gods reside in Aetherius, and maybe even the Imperial ones too.
I just don't really see why Lorkhan/Shor would be there. I mean, he sprung from the Void and Sithis, not Aetherius and Anu.

As for the truly mortal Gods that didn't mantle pre-existing ones, such as Mannimarco, Dagoth Ur, and the Tribunal...anyone's guess is as good/better than mine.

[Br3admax]

From Nirn, the planets would appear as stars. We know this because the Necromancer's Moon (Mannimarco's planet) blocks Arkay's light once a week, and instead shines purple. Would this not make them similar to the Manga Ge, i.e. holes in the Mundus through which Aetherius can be seen?

No. From Earth, most of the planets in our solar system appear as stars too.

[legoless]

Uh... that's what I said.

[Br3admax]

Except the stars are actual holes into Aetherius, they aren't stellar bodies, as the Aedra are thought to be. It's not like Magnus is actually the giant hole in the sky, it's just named after him. What I'm saying is, I don't think they're similar at all really, and I don't think anyone on Nirn does.

[Dark Spark]

What if particular planets can eclipse those stars holes to Aetherius.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The Planets aren't just holes. They're physical objects. They interact with Mundus differently than the stars and sun do, for sure. If they were stars, they'd be noted in The Firmament or similar books on the subject. We have to conclude they're distinct objects.

[Trelares]

Serana at one point does state that the Elven Gods reside in Aetherius, and maybe even the Imperial ones too.
I just don't really see why Lorkhan/Shor would be there. I mean, he sprung from the Void and Sithis, not Aetherius and Anu.

Well Lorkhan is a totally different matter entirely. If you believe that Nirn represents his daedric plane currently stabilized and supported by the Aedra after his punishment for deceiving them during the creation of said realm than the whole thing gets really complicated. Because a daedric plane is directly linked to the power of it's daedric prince, so one could say the plane is just another representation for the prince. Which is basically one of the reasons why destroying their physical shell won't really kill them.

Most of Lorkhan's physical remains are bound in Masser and Secunda, a large junk of his power was once contained(or imprisoned) in the Hearth of Lorkhan and the power of the Aedra holds together the whole dimension of his existance (that was created through their help).