Ulfric's Duel

[AKB]

Alright, stop arguing this.

[Br3admax]

Look, don't take this the wrong way, but go play the game again. Honestly, you sound like you don't have any idea what you're talking about. If you persist in this, I'll be happy to break open the CK and give you the dialogue that specifically says your wrong, but I'm hoping you'll be mature enough to just admit you didn't actually know.

[logansrun]

You do not become the high king if you challenge him and kill him in battle nor do you earn the title. The moot decides who becomes the new king regardless of who challenged him and killed him otherwise Ulfric could have put the crown on his head and proclaim himself as a high king.It only makes the candiate's case for the throne look strong or weak.

That's basically exactly what he did with the jagged crown.

[AKB]

We're done arguing this, last warning. Let other people talk.

[CBR JGWRR]

Yeah. All these points about kings and Jarls and customs - That isn't going to stop the LDB from simply seizing the throne by conquest/diplomacy/threat if the LDB chose to.

And all 3 are totally feasible.

[Dark Spark]

Okay, this is quite a can of worms...

First, the challenge between Ulfric and Torygg. It appears there was only one outcome, but two different consequences possible. He could have refused the challenge, which would have resulted him in stepping down from the High Throne and neccessitating a Moot. Or, accept the challenge and then watch as Ulfric brings a bazooka to a gunfight, whereupon his death required a Moot to be called.

Torygg was going to lose the position of High King, plain and simple. It was the civil war that erupted being the true consequence of his choice, not the fact he lost the throne at all.

Given that, Ulfric does seem to have this pretense that he is the king, Moot be damned. Gamar tries to get him the Jagged Crown for one, but there is also the matter of Queen Freydis' sword. He has the blacksmith attempt to create a replica of it (the FedEx quest you get from the blacksmith is to go fetch the real one instead).

And the Dragonborn can go and take over the entire continent, Tiber Septim style, if one so chooses. There's one little problem with trying to do it all by your lonesome, though: Taking over a world is pretty much a team effort. The Dragonborn is going to have to convince a lot of people to accept them as the ruler of everything, and then take those allies to convince everyone else of the same (a far bigger challenge).

As for myself: I can't even get a stray dog to follow me off the road and into the rough terrain of the Reach. How am I going to lead a whole army?

[CBR JGWRR]

Bend Will.

[Dark Spark]

How far, though? Until he snaps?

[Emzi 43]

If I may add something here? Regarding Ulfric's legitimacy after winning the duel. I believe the duel was to simply show his people the king was weak, whichever option he chose. He doesn't become High King by default afterwards, I remember a conversation he has with Galmar before the Jagged crown (Don't take that as a definite, I don't know) where they discuss the moot, and how Ulfric isn't high king yet (To which Ulfric does reply "Damn the moot!", implying he's acting as High King anyway). Also, if you complete the civil war quest line, it is quite clearly stated that Ulfric is not High King, he and Galmar joke about how it's a forgone conclusion, he placed his own jarls in the place of the Imperials. You can also ask him "Do I call you High King now?", to which the answer is something along the lines of "Not quite".

To be clear, Ulfric's savage victory did NOT, make him High King, it opened up the vacancy. A moot would have been called if they weren't playing 4 a side swordball with Whiterun trying not to be noticed.

[logansrun]

The in-game dialogue available on the wiki makes it reasonably clear that Ulfric's concessions to the Moot were simply a matter of politics. He and Elisif both had a claim to the throne. Hers through marriage and his through combat. Since Elisif was at Ulfric's mercy at the end of Civil War for the Stormcloaks and swore fealty to Ulfric, she basically surrendered her claim at that point leaving Ulfric the. Standing victor. His dialogue with Galmar shows he's merely being gracious for the sake of appearances in letting the Moot officially crown him high king rather than usurping the title by force. It's just cleaner and less divisive that way adding weight to his claim.

[Mattbott]

Okay, this is quite a can of worms...

And the Dragonborn can go and take over the entire continent, Tiber Septim style, if one so chooses. There's one little problem with trying to do it all by your lonesome, though: Taking over a world is pretty much a team effort. The Dragonborn is going to have to convince a lot of people to accept them as the ruler of everything, and then take those allies to convince everyone else of the same (a far bigger challenge).

I think DK would have a good case to argue if someone suggested he try and be a new Tiber Septim. Adding all the stuff up and a bit of lore meta gaming with all that Chim stuff, i see my dovahkiin as a sort of Paul Atreides for Skyrim, the Title is there for him to take.

Spoiler:

There's the dossier from the Thalmor suggesting Ulfirc is one of their assets, in case you need him removed. There's the defeat of Alduin , restoration the Blades / Greybeards , defeat of vampires and ability to cause the sun to go dark if anyone needs persuading, victory in the civil war, bringing peace to the land,

and the promise to destroy the Thalmor (though that last bit is not in game but i'd imagine a good few DKs would be itching to take the fight to the White Gold tower).

comparing these tasks above with those i had to accomplish to unite Vvardenfell and become Nerevarine, i would say the people of Skyrim would jump all over the DK if he offered to be a new High King.

DK could suggest he's going for a bigger throne and that the people of skyrim could choose a new high king for home rule once DK becomes Emperor.

[Br3admax]

The answer to the Thalmor is not to brutalize the Empire.

[logansrun]

Yes, b/c the Empire has done such a wonderful job keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim.

"People are rightly stirred up about the damn Thalmor being allowed to roam around arresting people, just for worshipping Talos."
...
"Dragging people off in the middle of the night..."
Alvor

Player: "Who are you?"
Justiciar: "I am a Thalmor Justiciar on important business that you are interfering with."
Player: "Who are the Thalmor?"
Justiciar: "We are special envoys of the Aldmeri Dominion, the rightful rulers of Tamriel. If you'd like I can show you why. If you're smart, you'll walk away."
Player: "What are you doing in Skyrim?"
Justiciar: "We're making sure your Emperor wasn't lying to his elven masters when he agreed the Empire would give up false gods and foolish beliefs. Now, go away."
Player: "Do all Thalmor have such high opinions of themselves?"
Justiciar: "That we are superior to men is an established fact. For example, take this belief in Talos. The "ninth" Divine. Heh. Certainly you don't believe such things? Or perhaps there's something you'd like to confess?"

Player: "You got me. I believe in Talos." Justiciar: "And so, you will die a heretic's death." (attacks)

Player: "I can worship anyone I want." Justiciar: "Incorrect. You can worship whatever gods you like. But Talos is a man, and only a heretic would think otherwise... And so, you will die a heretic's death." (attacks)

Player: (Remain silent) Justiciar: "I don't like you... I think you're a heretic. And so, you will die a heretic's death." (attacks)

There are multiple random Thalmor encounters
Thalmor traveling on the road
Thalmor vs Stormcloaks
Thalmor with Citizen ... "Heretic" ... Prisoner

Notice there is no "Thlamor vs Imperials" encounter protecting the citizens of Skyrim from being "arrested" (black bagged) as "heretics" (dissidents).

"My definition of a free society is a society where it is safe to be unpopular."
Adlai E. Stevenson Jr., Speech in Detroit, 7 Oct. 1952
US diplomat & Democratic politician (1900 - 1965)

[Baloth-Kul]

The Empire is beholden to the Thalmor. They lost the Great War. The Thalmor can send agents into Skyrim and arrest those that violate the terms of the treaty (or anyone else they feel like, really), but the Empire is the only thing between Skyrim and a Thalmor invasion.

Well, and/or the Stormcloaks.

You're getting off topic, anyway. Ulfric's Duel. Ulfric's claim.

[Br3admax]

Nobody "won" the Great War.

[Dark Spark]

Nobody "wins" a war, period. The moment you suffer that first casualty, you are in deficit (Sun Tzu). One side usually loses less than the other, though. The Dominion lost less.

[Br3admax]

That philosophical mumbo jumbo aside, that's not even true. The entire Aldmeri army was destroyed.

[Dark Spark]

Just as was the Imperial resolve.

There is but one thing more terrible than war: the feeling that there is nothing worth fighting for (John Stuart Mill). The Empire felt that their position was not worth fighting for any more.

[MidbossVyers]

Nobody "wins" a war, period. The moment you suffer that first casualty, you are in deficit (Sun Tzu). One side usually loses less than the other, though. The Dominion lost less.

I would like to introduce Sun Tzu to my 2 friends, one of whom is a cannibal, and the other a necromancer.

[Dark Spark]

See, people! This is why you should never fight for an army which has necromancers in it! They don't even pay you for the 'overtime'!

[spin]

That philosophical mumbo jumbo aside, that's not even true. The entire Aldmeri army was destroyed.

if the whole Aldmeri army was destroyed, why would the Empire even be negotiating a treaty that calls for the Empire to be making concessions to them? doesn't seem to make much sense. even taking into account the other post that said the Empire's resolve was depleted, because if they had no army, it wouldn't take much resolve to not bow to every whim of the Aldmeri Dominion. or is the Emperor really that big of a doofus he wins on the battlefield but then gets scared silly during the peace negotiations?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The whole idea that people would get strongly behind a deposition to the Mede dynasty is questionable in and of itself. People in general tend to like stable systems to remain stable. Nobody really willingly starts an uprising without just cause. Titus II wasn't the most popular ruler of all time, but Titus I was extremely popular, as was his son Attrebus. To be honest, this dynasty has already lasted half as long as the reign of the Septims, and overall they have a better track record. The argument that the Septims wouldn't have let the Empire plunge into bloody civil wars is objectively false, because they did. More than once. The Third Era is regarded as a golden age of peace and prosperity, but more blood was spilled during the War of the Red Diamond than during the Great War. It's vital to keep that in perspective. People are probably relieved the old man is dead, but they're not calling for an end to the stability of the Mede Dynasty just yet. The Dragonborn becoming Emperor is like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. There's no need for a new Emperor. Mede had grandchildren; he most likely had lots of them.

The Cyrodiils don't really prefer the whole bloody uprising thing anyway. Once formed, a Dynasty tends to remain uncontested and stable. Alessia was crowned first Empress for her role in freeing the Nedic tribes from the Ayleids. Her Alessian Empire lasted for a very long time, despite the extreme unpopularity of certain rulers and policies. Reman filled the power vacuum that plunged Cyrodiil into centuries of chaos after the last Alessian Emperor died. He fulfilled a very real need to unite people against internal and external threats, especially the Tsaesci from Akavir. Tiber Septim filled another gaping wound in the world. When he stepped in, Tamriel was in a prolonged state of internal strife. Reman's unified Empire was a distant memory and the land had been ravaged by warfare. A change in leadership was way past due. Once again, when Titus Mede I took over, a time of strife and corruption preceded that. With Martin dead there were no more legitimate claimants to the throne, and the Elder Council was carelessly mismanaging the situation and letting provinces leave the Empire. A firm hand was needed. I just don't see that sense of urgency at this juncture in time. The Great War was thirty years before the events of Skyrim. If there was going to be a radical coup in Cyrodiil it would have happened already. It seems Motierre and his friends were content to wait until Mede got old and made a mistake, and then hired the Dark Brotherhood to take him out. He'll probably be replaced by a direct blood heir who can more easily be controlled by the Elder Council. It's the kind of thing that happened time and again with the Septims and other ruling families. Business as usual.

[rcbecker123]

The way I read it Strong rule is good for nords and if your rule is the strongest you are in. also everyone knows you are dragon born which means blessed by the gods. strong point. Nords want this.
Next if emporers can be dragonborn and many have been in the past this may be excepted once the empire has surrendered the war. allowing you to unite the kindoms as in old. if you push away from the bigotry and move in the right direction you can regain the support of the dark elves and maybe the Argonians. The redgaurd are still fighting the Aldimary dominion so as a new emporor you may regain there faith lost by the old empire. I see know reason why the DB could not be the next Emporer if he wanted it but as said before the game doesnt want it so forget about it. Same as I cant punish the guards for being as*wholes when talking to the DB. event though im a thane and would have that ability in a real life.

[Dark Spark]

If Torygg had ruled with his head and not some other anatomical construct (namely that Imperial hand shoved in his backside) he would have seen that accepting Ulfric's challenge could only result in death. Not just his— but countless others drawn into a war that didn't have to happen.

Knowing he was outmatched, he could have stepped down from the High Throne. Of course, doing such an act might have forfeited his ticket to Sovngarde, no?

So, all the blood spilled after that day was meant for a river to float Torygg (and possibly Ulfric) towards eternal glory? Nords are dicks.

[Baloth-Kul]

Torygg knew declining the duel would have strengthened Ulfric's claim, just as it may have been (and was) strengthened if he accepted and lost. Plus, he had his personal honour to maintain. He was damned if he did, and damned if he didn't. He at least went out like a man. Well, sort of. Still pretty cheap that Ulfric used the voice to bowl the old guy over, first.