The Nedes

[Gandalf]

Hello UESP! I have some questions about the Nedes.

Recently I've been brushing up on my Lore. Now, previously I had assumed that the Nedes were the race that were precursors to the Imperials, Nords and Bretons, but the page on Nedes states that Cyro-Nordics (which I think are humans in Cyrodiil post-Alessia) took over most of their territory and drove them into Hammerfell, where they were eventually wiped out by the mass Redguard migration.

So, my questions are: what relation are the Nedes to the modern Mannish races (excluding Redguards); what is the distinction between the Nedes and said races; and, more ambiguously, who were they?

As a bonus: Where does mankind originate from, if it's known? Because the Ra'Gada, Kothringi and unknown Akaviri race of humans are all obviously from elsewhere than Atmora, but we know that the Aldmer all originated from one place - Aldmeris, which may or may not be Tamriel. Don't we?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

"Nede" is one of those catch-all terms that's used in different ways by different book writers in TES. About the only thing that's 100% consistent about them is that they were around before the modern Human races, and for the most part had skin tones similar to what we'd call a Nord or Breton, with a few notable exceptions like the Kothringi, and whatever tribes contributed to the slightly more Italian looking skin tones of the Imperials. Morihaus mentions at least five or six in the Adabal-a, which can be read here at UESP or at the Imperial Library.

My best advice would be to go to the source materials and draw your own conclusions. Wiki articles and any responses you get here would be colored by other people's opinions. The UESP article on Nedes contains links to all the book they're mentioned in, with the possible exception of some of the newer Craglorn stuff from ESO. At the end of the day, the sources are far too contradictory to say anything for sure, except the basic conclusion that they were ancient Humans of a lighter skintone than Redguards, but not all what you'd call Caucasian looking.

As for the origin of races - again, choose your own adventure. We know absolutely nothing for sure. We have conflicting mythologies and that's about it. Read the Monomyth. Read Varieties of Faith. Read the timelines at UESP and TIL, and books like Frontier:Conquest. That'll help some, but at the end of the day you've got more questions than answers, and must infer.

Welcome to Lore. Have a fishy stick.

[Gandalf]

Ok, that helps somewhat. Enough to be getting on with, at least - cheers!

[Maxrebo]

You also mentioned Aldmeris which on that topic,Isn't there also a theory that Aldmeris isn't actually a place but an idea referring either to the time before the Mer were sundered by the creation of the mortal plane or the time when the Mer where all still just Aldmer before their cultural and religious schisms,leading to the Altmer(Who are the remnants of the original Aldmer that "Pure Blood Ancestry,combined with the belife of lost divinity explains the Haughtiness.),The Chimer(who became the Dunmer),Orismer(Trinimac worshipping Aldmer),Dwemer,Falmer,Maomer(Who were the followers of a exiled Aldmer Noble named Orgnum),Aylied (Both Daedra Worshipping and Aedra Worshipping Varieties),The Bosmer(Worshippers of Jeffre),most likely the Left Handed Elves of Yokuda as well and according to some books maybe even the Khajiit which were from stock similar to the Bosmer but whom where given their current multitude of forms by Azura.

I have heard the term Nede used to describe two primary groups of Humans

Tamriel Aboriginal Humans:Ex the Kothringi
Atmoran Humans who fled Skyrim after the Night of Tears or afterward:Imperials and Bretons

So for humans on Nirn they can probably separated like this

Atmoran-Nord,Imperial,Breton
Nede-Kothringi,other Aboriginal Groups and maybe Imperial and Bretons it depends on what you believe
Yokudans:Redguards
Akaviri:Potentially extinct specie of Akaviri Humans and Tsaesci Human Hybrids mention in the Redguard Comic I believe.

If I remember correctly its mentioned in the first issue of the Redguard comic which is included in the games manual,mentions that the man Cyrus is doing a job for in Wayrest just before departing for Stros M'kai is half Tsaesci and looks East Asian with some serpentine features.Though he doesn't not have snakes lower half he has two legs.His name was Duadeen.Tsaesci\Human Children make sense what with the Akaviri Potentate ruling the second empire for 430 and with the heavy Akaviri Presence and influence on the Second Empire and Cyrodiil in particular there is a good chance of their being Imperial families with Tsaesci Blood living somewhere in Tamriel.

[Br3admax]

Only Nibenese Imperials are really that Atmoran. Hardly any Bretons are significantly. Out of Atmora isn't supported by anything substantial.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

It's really hard to pin down just what percentage of each modern Human race has Nedic blood, even if you have a good definition of what Nedic is. According to reliable sources, Nirn is roughly 6,000 to 7,000 years old by the time of Skyrim. If you're the type of lore historian who is prone to use umbrella terms like "Nede" at all (I'd advise a pinch of salt with that type of behavior), you've got to admit there's no way to pin down who they are, where they're from and especially the specifics of which sub-nationalities of which countries contain whatever percentage. It's a losing game. There's nothing exactly like genetics in Tamriel, even with advanced magicka. Aside from obvious dominant physical traits, it's hard to tell who is related to who, and even superficial traits like skin tone and bone structure can be misleading.

The thing that complicates it the most would be the near-constant admixture over the long centuries since these various cultures first mingled. Your average Imperial citizen is a lot like your average American citizen. They speak the same language and have similar features, but they might have parents and grandparents from six or seven different nationalities. When you consider how prolific the Legions were, especially during the Reman and Septim Empires, and how many of them likely settled down in the Provinces they were stationed at, it's pretty likely any given Breton or Imperial you see is as much one as the other. In the Iliac Bay, the rulers of Redguard and Breton kingdoms regularly arrange political marriages to strengthen trade and unity across the bay. Many people in Anvil County on the streets speak to you in Colovian accents but have strong Nord or Redguard features. It's a pretty well known historical fact that most of the Septims were essentially just Bretons. Hell, you could go on and on with examples, but by the Fourth Era "race" is more about nationality than anything else.

Gotta say, the notable exceptions are the Beast Races, whose abilities to intermingle with humans and elves are a controversial subject, and the Elven races, who all value some ideal of racial purity with a few exceptions. The Humans don't tend to see things that way, and more freely interbreed. It's much more rare to see a Dunmer or Altmer marry outside his clan - let alone his race - than to see a Human of any type do that. Bosmer might be the exception, being the free spirits they are. Orcs are known to be able to procreate with Humans, and probably Elves, but do this more in the Reach as political moves than anywhere else.

[Gandalf]

You also mentioned Aldmeris which on that topic,Isn't there also a theory that Aldmeris isn't actually a place but an idea referring either to the time before the Mer were sundered by the creation of the mortal plane or the time when the Mer where all still just Aldmer before their cultural and religious schisms,leading to the Altmer(Who are the remnants of the original Aldmer that "Pure Blood Ancestry,combined with the belife of lost divinity explains the Haughtiness.),The Chimer(who became the Dunmer),Orismer(Trinimac worshipping Aldmer),Dwemer,Falmer,Maomer(Who were the followers of a exiled Aldmer Noble named Orgnum),Aylied (Both Daedra Worshipping and Aedra Worshipping Varieties),The Bosmer(Worshippers of Jeffre),most likely the Left Handed Elves of Yokuda as well and according to some books maybe even the Khajiit which were from stock similar to the Bosmer but whom where given their current multitude of forms by Azura.

Couple of points here: I think it was actually "proven" by one scholar or another that the vision of Aldmeris was a racial Dawn Era flashback, which changed with different cultures; what I meant by Aldmeris was the actual landmass the Aldmer originated from, which is speculated to be Tamriel itself. Also, you've reminded me of the Left-Handed Elves; how the hell does a race come to be known as that? xD And, more seriously, are they really all dead? If the Yokudans could escape, then why not some of them, maybe to the lands of Pyandonea (under the above-mentioned Orgnum). Which brings me on to my next point: is there a source saying that Orgnum was an exile from the Aldmer, or is that just your personal belief/interpretation? And on Khajiit and Bosmer: There's the Khajiiti creation theory stating that the difference is thanks to Azurah giving them the different forms, but there's also at least one source saying that the Bosmer were Aldmer that left for a new culture, and took "Mannish wives", becoming the Bosmer (side note: does this make them similar to the Bretons?)

On Nedes again: From what I've been reading since posting the thread, the indigenous humans on Tamriel, the Yokudans and the Akaviri Men are all unrelated, both to each other and to the Atmorans. My original thoughts were that "Nede" was a blanket term for humans descended from Atmoran blood, and for example, northern Cyrodiilics even from pre-Ayleid times were "Nedes from Skyrim" according to the PGE - which I take to mean, by extension, descended from Atmora. Therefore, I think that Nedes and Atmorans were, at least at one point, one and the same, with Nedes eventually coming to be those humans further south (e.g. in Auld Cyrod and High Rock) and Atmorans being those in Ysgramor's descendant's kingdom (and obviously those still in Atmora).

About the Tsaesci: I'm pretty sure I also read somewhere, but I don't recall the source, that Imperial noble families prize those with the most Akaviri blood. Which would be a distant relation between Atmora and Akavir, but in the same way my grandmothers are related: through their descendants/offspring.

Only Nibenese Imperials are really that Atmoran. Hardly any Bretons are significantly. Out of Atmora isn't supported by anything substantial.

I was under the impression that Bretons were half Nedic, so... Going on what I've said above, I'd take that to mean they're distantly Atmoran but more recently the "new" (bad word, not sure what to use instead? Basically, those who weren't part of the kingdom of Skyrim after Ysgramor returned) Nede, mixed with Elf blood. But of course, Bretons apparently prize Elven blood so most Bretons would be more Mer than Nede.

It's really hard to pin down just what percentage of each modern Human race has Nedic blood, even if you have a good definition of what Nedic is. According to reliable sources, Nirn is roughly 6,000 to 7,000 years old by the time of Skyrim. If you're the type of lore historian who is prone to use umbrella terms like "Nede" at all (I'd advise a pinch of salt with that type of behavior), you've got to admit there's no way to pin down who they are, where they're from and especially the specifics of which sub-nationalities of which countries contain whatever percentage. It's a losing game. There's nothing exactly like genetics in Tamriel, even with advanced magicka. Aside from obvious dominant physical traits, it's hard to tell who is related to who, and even superficial traits like skin tone and bone structure can be misleading.

The thing that complicates it the most would be the near-constant admixture over the long centuries since these various cultures first mingled. Your average Imperial citizen is a lot like your average American citizen. They speak the same language and have similar features, but they might have parents and grandparents from six or seven different nationalities. When you consider how prolific the Legions were, especially during the Reman and Septim Empires, and how many of them likely settled down in the Provinces they were stationed at, it's pretty likely any given Breton or Imperial you see is as much one as the other. In the Iliac Bay, the rulers of Redguard and Breton kingdoms regularly arrange political marriages to strengthen trade and unity across the bay. Many people in Anvil County on the streets speak to you in Colovian accents but have strong Nord or Redguard features. It's a pretty well known historical fact that most of the Septims were essentially just Bretons. Hell, you could go on and on with examples, but by the Fourth Era "race" is more about nationality than anything else.

All of this is very valid. Where does it say that that's the rough age of Nirn? I'd like to read it. And I agree, too, that by now too much interbreeding has led to screwing up distinct races, but for the most part people do identify themselves as a certain race - and others too, even though this could lead to... mistakes (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, UMBACANO FROM OBLIVION) - depending on their lineage. But it does also raise another question: are Bretons the result of generations of interbreeding, or would (hypothetically) a purely Atmoran bloodline and a purely Aldmeri bloodline produce Breton offspring? Food for thought.

Finally: I don't really see Dunmer being particularly fussy about lineage, except for the nobility (which is generally true of most races). I mean, "The Real Barenziah" actually says that Dunmer women are promiscuous in their youth, and Barenziah (whether the story is truth or fiction is debatable) displays some of this attitude with a Khajiit Thief.

By the way: I realise a lot of what I've said here are questions. Some of it is actually curiosity, but some of it is rhetoric to let me think it over. If you're reading it all and thinking "Damn Gandalf, tone it down!" please don't feel compelled to answer every question written if it's too painstaking xD

[Maxrebo]

The thing about Orgnum being exiled Aldmer Noble and the Maomer being his followers in mention wiki's page on Orgnum about he being an Altmer legend on his and the Maomer's origin.One thing I always wondered about the Tsaesci is whether or not they actually are snake people or Humanoids that just look different from anything on Tamriel and so was describe as snake like from, the features.Kind of like how Elephant skulls became Cyclops to humans or a traveler from Europe to Asia during the Middle Ages led to animals like Ibex's becoming unicorns similar to how other mythological creatures where created though misinterpretation of real animals or fossils as something else. Its kind of continued on as description for them as a form of Tamrielic racism.

When I said Bretons being of Nedic stock I meant the human side descends from Atmoran's who fled Skyrim after the sack of Sarthaal but before Ysgramor's return and were either enslaved or lived amongst the mer of Highrock with similar origins for the Imperials especially the Nibenese where the Colovians kept more of the Nordic\Atmoran Roots.

I can see the Bosmer intermarrying with Humans quite freely,the Altmer not at all of very rarely and when they do its controversial issue.As for the Dunmer it depends on personal views and their Great House for example I don't see any members of House Dres or Indoril marrying anyone other than another Dunmer unless they like to rebel against house traditions.Hlaalu and less conservative elements of Redoran I can see doing the so the really Telvanni might despite their xenophobia just because they don't care about peoples opinions so if a Telvanni likes Human they gonna marry them an everyone else be damned.The one race we know for sure as being native to Tamriel are the Argonians.But a lot of that doesn't really matter because a lot of Tamriel is mixed cultural identity and race due to the Empire and general interbreeding and culture mixing.

With the Argonians,Khajiit,and Elves being less mixed and the Imperials and Bretons being the most mixed.

That mixing and interbreeding is where the Bretons strength lies,what they lack in terms of the Military Might they make for in undermining their enemies through intermarriage, and cross breeding.The battle for control of High Rock between the Bretons and the Direnni was not won on the battlefield but in the bedroom.That also how they gained great political and diplomatic power in the Septim Empire. So in closing no one really knows who the Nedes were but its clear they no longer exist,they either displaced by the other human races now on Tamriel or became them after many generations. There is no clear consensus on who they where,though the most common belief seems to being that Nedes where humans from Atmora who left Skyrim and didn't become Nord's so in other words the Imperials and Breton's.Though the Bretons probably have the least Nedeic blood of all the Humans of Atmoran Lineage.

[Br3admax]

Only Nibenese Imperials are really that Atmoran. Hardly any Bretons are significantly. Out of Atmora isn't supported by anything substantial.

I was under the impression that Bretons were half Nedic, so... Going on what I've said above, I'd take that to mean they're distantly Atmoran but more recently the "new" (bad word, not sure what to use instead? Basically, those who weren't part of the kingdom of Skyrim after Ysgramor returned) Nede, mixed with Elf blood. But of course, Bretons apparently prize Elven blood so most Bretons would be more Mer than Nede.

No not all. They aren't "half" anything. Bretons are also Men and are mostly man. They don't all praise Mer blood and are more in line with their Imperial cousins now. I'm never sure where this half-elf theory comes from anyway. It took many generations of breeding to create Bretons, and they are still mostly man.

[Maxrebo]

They are men with very little elven blood in them,its less half elf and more like 1\1000th elf and the rest is man.Since with the way it works in Tamriel you can't be half anything.You're always the same race as the mother with maybe a few traits of the father.Thus mean the Breton came about only through Mer Male+Human Female with those children preceding to have kids over time that created what we now consider the Bretons.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

All of this is very valid. Where does it say that that's the rough age of Nirn? I'd like to read it.

The Timeline supports it, if you add up the years. Community leaders and world builders like Ted Peterson and Michael Kirkbride have verified it before. I can't link to specific quotes but I have vivid memories, and it's generally accepted as canon among the lore community that the age of Nirn is somewhere between 6,000 and 7,000 but uncertain due to the timey wimey-ness of the Dawn Era.

And I agree, too, that by now too much interbreeding has led to screwing up distinct races, but for the most part people do identify themselves as a certain race - and others too, even though this could lead to... mistakes (I'M LOOKING AT YOU, UMBACANO FROM OBLIVION) - depending on their lineage. But it does also raise another question: are Bretons the result of generations of interbreeding, or would (hypothetically) a purely Atmoran bloodline and a purely Aldmeri bloodline produce Breton offspring? Food for thought.

Bretons are a very specific culture and race. They're part Direnni and part indigenous Human population of High Rock. This book details their racial makeup. The word "Breton" is from an old Elf word for "half".

Finally: I don't really see Dunmer being particularly fussy about lineage, except for the nobility (which is generally true of most races). I mean, "The Real Barenziah" actually says that Dunmer women are promiscuous in their youth, and Barenziah (whether the story is truth or fiction is debatable) displays some of this attitude with a Khajiit Thief.

There's a quest in Morrowind, in Sadrith Mora, where you can promise to keep a relationship between an Altmer and Dunmer a secret so they're not looked down on or persecuted. Morrowind's character dialogue also makes it perfectly clear that the traditionalist Dunmer think of all other races as inferior to their own, and that mingling with them is "shameful." Certain Dunmer also consider themselves "The Pureblooded Folk"

[Ichiryuu]

according to some books maybe even the Khajiit which were from stock similar to the Bosmer but whom where given their current multitude of forms by Azura.

Which books state these theories? I didn't know about them, though I know some khajiiti breeds strongly resemble elven races, the Ohmes the most if I am not mistaken.

[Gandalf]

From the wiki Lore page on Bretons: "Before or soon after the start of the First Era, Aldmer came to High Rock from the Summerset Isles and interbred with Nedes, eventually creating the Breton race." From the PGE: "...and in High Rock, a mix between Nedic and Aldmer birthed the Bretons." So it's a mixed race, but due to interbreeding in more recent years it's likely closer to Man than Mer.

On Khajiit, for Ichiryuu: "And Azurah took some forest people who were torn between man and beast, and she placed them in the best deserts and forests on Nirni. And Azurah in her wisdom made them of many shapes, one for every purpose. And Azurah named them Khajiit and told them her Second Secret and taught them the value of secrets." That's from this text if you want to read the whole thing.

Pilaf: I've not played much of Morrowind at all, so cheers for enlightening me on the Dunmer interracial thing. Although I think it's pretty funny how the Dunmer consider themselves "pureblooded" when they've been literally completely changed by a Daedric Prince, while the Altmer are the direct descendents of the Aldmer who stayed on Summerset.

Maxrebo: I think Orgnum and the Maormer are gonna be the next focuses of my attention. As for the beast races, we don't even know if they can interbreed with the other races - and if they can't, that'd be a bit of an impediment to their mixing races But yeah, I'd have to agree that Humans are going to be much more interbred than any of the other groups. And I suppose, in light of Pilaf's sources, that the Dunmer thing is much more of a personal than cultural thing, with a general inclination toward keeping it in-race, but not a formal restriction?

[Br3admax]

From the wiki Lore page on Bretons: "Before or soon after the start of the First Era, Aldmer came to High Rock from the Summerset Isles and interbred with Nedes, eventually creating the Breton race." From the PGE: "...and in High Rock, a mix between Nedic and Aldmer birthed the Bretons." So it's a mixed race, but due to interbreeding in more recent years it's likely closer to Man than Mer.

They were never Mer or "half-Mer" to begin with. They're closer to Men because the child takes on the race of the mother. The only reason they're separate from other Nomadic tribes is because of many generations of breeding with elves. Even then, they're still Men.

[Gandalf]

Yes, they're Men, but a lot of their lineage is Aldmeri. They are accepted as a race of Men, I'm just saying that a lot of their ancestors were Mer, too. But then again, most Men probably have Mer SOMEWHERE in their ancestry at this point...

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The Bretons retained much of the culture of their former masters, Clan Direnni. Their entire system of government and religion was originally based off those ideals and practices. Later, they were influenced a lot by Alessian religion, and Imperial culture. High Rock has been a part of all three major Empires on Tamriel, so aside from the Cyrodiils themselves you could consider Bretons the quintessential Imperial race. Their blood is mostly Human at this point but their politics and religion manage to maintain a blend of Cyro-Nordic and Aldmeri influences.

As for the Dunmer belief about their skin tone - they don't see their change as a curse.

And the new world we shaped was glorious and generous, and the worship of the Dunmer fervent and grateful. The Dunmer were at first afraid of their new faces, but Sotha Sil spoke to them, saying that it was not a curse but a blessing, a sign of their changed natures, and sign of the special favor they might enjoy as New Mer, no longer barbarians trembling before ghosts and spirits, but civilized mer, speaking directly to their immortal friends and patrons, the three faces of the Tribunal. And we were all inspired by Sotha Sil's speech and vision, and took heart. And over time, we crafted the customs and institutions of a just and honorable society, and the land of Resdayn knew millennia of peace, equity, and prosperity unknown to other savage races. ~ The Battle of Red Mountain

[Leckan]

Are all of the mer from Aldmeris?

I believe that is just Altmer purist pride speaking, as Dwemer and Falmer seemed to exist in Tamriel before the other mer ventured there and sprouted. The Maomer may also not originally be from Aldmeris, either.

[Woodhouse]

I think all the mer are descendants of the Aldmer.
As for Aldmeris, I don't think we have any evidence for it being a real place, so its hard to say.
(By "evidence", I mean any record of anyone ever going there).

[CBR JGWRR]

Are all of the mer from Aldmeris?

I believe that is just Altmer purist pride speaking, as Dwemer and Falmer seemed to exist in Tamriel before the other mer ventured there and sprouted. The Maomer may also not originally be from Aldmeris, either.

Yes. In Altmeri society if you don't like something you leave - that's what went down for the Dwemer, the Chimer, the Ayleids, the snow elves...

You don't stick around and try to change them, that doesn't work.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Are all of the mer from Aldmeris?

I believe that is just Altmer purist pride speaking, as Dwemer and Falmer seemed to exist in Tamriel before the other mer ventured there and sprouted. The Maomer may also not originally be from Aldmeris, either.

Aldmeris is one of those topics we don't know enough about to give a definitive answer. It may have never been a physical place, or it may have predated Nirn. (The 12 Worlds of Creation model presented in the Anuad).

If you go by the account of Topal the Pilot in "Father of the Niben", there were no sentient races of Man or Mer anywhere in Tamriel when the earliest Aldmer explorers sat foot there. It can be surmised the Dwemer and Falmer are the evolved descendants of early Aldmeri settlers. Topal is mid-Merethic, and the Merethic Era lasts roughly 2500 years, so the magically inclined rapid evolution of TES would have more than enough time to morph Aldmer into those two races, in theory. Orcs and Dunmer underwent their changes really quickly. Instantly in some accounts. I don't see why the Snow Elves and Deep Elves couldn't have underwent similar metamorphoses.

[Leckan]

Are all of the mer from Aldmeris?

I believe that is just Altmer purist pride speheyaking, as Dwemer and Falmer seemed to exist in Tamriel before the other mer ventured there and sprouted. The Maomer may also not originally be from Aldmeris, either.

Aldmeris is one of those topics we don't know enough about to give a definitive answer. It may have never been a physical place, or it may have predated Nirn. (The 12 Worlds of Creation model presented in the Anuad).

If you go by the account of Topal the Pilot in "Father of the Niben", there were no sentient races of Man or Mer anywhere in Tamriel when the earliest Aldmer explorers sat foot there. It can be surmised the Dwemer and Falmer are the evolved descendants of early Aldmeri settlers. Topal is mid-Merethic, and the Merethic Era lasts roughly 2500 years, so the magically inclined rapid evolution of TES would have more than enough time to morph Aldmer into those two races, in theory. Orcs and Dunmer underwent their changes really quickly. Instantly in some accounts. I don't see why the Snow Elves and Deep Elves couldn't have underwent similar metamorphoses.

Perhaps, but then how does that account for the Kothringi? They are, as far as we know, the native men of Tamriel that originated in the Black Marsh, if my memory serves correct.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

You can speak to their spirits in ESO. They call themselves descendants of the Nedes. So we're back to square one. What's a Nede? It's an archaic human. That's about the only definitive answer we have. I sent a question to ESO's AMA about them a while back, but no edition of Loremaster's Archive has focused on human evolution yet, so I have yet to receive a response.