Was Jagar Tharn the nightingale?

[Raynil dralas]

I mean it seems pretty clear from the real baranziah that this is the case but ive just read elsewhere that the Nightingale was actually Drayven Indoril? After re-reading the real Barenziah this makes absoloulty no sense? as she sees past the "emperors" illusion and sees the nightingale, we all know that it was Jagar tharn impersonating the emperor so how does this make any sense at all? is it just an example of really bad ret-conning?

[Dark Spark]

Nightingales number in three, do they not?

[Br3admax]

No. Jagar Tharn hired a Nightingale to seduce Barenziah.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

This is one of those stories that comes in several flavors, and it's all hear say, so choose your own adventure and roll with it.

[Minor Edits]

I agree with Breadmax. While there's room to believe what you want, I'm inclined to believe The Nightingales is closest to the truth. The Nightingale was Drayven Indoril.

The orthodox tale is there to be dismissed, more or less. It existed to set up the public to believe in the "real" story presented in The Real Barenziah. Considering that TRB's author Plitinius Mero was Barenziah's employee, I think that it's reasonable to assume that he wrote TRB with her blessing, maybe even her editing. While The Real Barenziah has some scandalous moments, the version of events presented by The Nightingales is more embarrassing and would have been more politically detrimental to Barenziah. It makes a whole lotta sense for her to have commissioned TRB as a red herring. The pieces all seem to fit together a bit better, so The Nightingale is either closer to the truth or else is an exceptionally well-crafted conspiracy theory.

And ironically, believing in this version of the tale actually makes Barenziah seem more cunning in the end, not less so, due to the success of her propaganda campaign.

[Raynil dralas]

Wasn't the whole Nightingales thing written for skyrim anyway? I don't recall any mention of nocturnal and the 3 nightingales before then. The whole thing screams of awkward retconning to give the nightingales some cool back ground. And I was always under the impression that the auther of the real B only became friends with her after the book was written, im pretty sure she initially tried to stop it from being released, theres a quest in daggerfall to that effect if i recall. If the nightingale wasn't tharn then pretty much the whole 5th chapter loses its impact, its so great to read because it all comes together and whats worse even after she finds out she continues her affair with Tharn/the false emperor. If she was just toying around with some thief while Tharn sat on the throne the whole 5th chapter makes no sense.

[Raynil dralas]

It also states in "nightingales" that tharn tried to eliminate drayven after he retrivied the staff of chaos, so if thats the case barenziah couldn't have spent several years having an affair with him and finding out the locations of the staff of chaos (why would he know these anyway?" so was she just with Tharn the whole time? Honestly Im not buying this new story, it really does seem shoe horned in to try and establish the Nightingales in the lore rather than just being a new thing in TES V.

[legoless]

Obvious retcon is obvious. I preferred Tharn as the Nightingale, Skyrim's Thieves Guild sucked.

[Raynil dralas]

Obvious retcon is obvious. I preferred Tharn as the Nightingale, Skyrim's Thieves Guild sucked.

My sentiments exactly.

[Minor Edits]

Wasn't the whole Nightingales thing written for skyrim anyway? I don't recall any mention of nocturnal and the 3 nightingales before then. The whole thing screams of awkward retconning to give the nightingales some cool back ground. And I was always under the impression that the auther of the real B only became friends with her after the book was written, im pretty sure she initially tried to stop it from being released, theres a quest in daggerfall to that effect if i recall. If the nightingale wasn't tharn then pretty much the whole 5th chapter loses its impact, its so great to read because it all comes together and whats worse even after she finds out she continues her affair with Tharn/the false emperor.

Mero was a trusted "friend" before the book was written; that's how he made the book in the first place.

Basically, there was one passage Barenziah apparently didn't like, so the Daggerfall quest holds up. She wanted the book released in the end, just after it had been edited.

If she was just toying around with some thief while Tharn sat on the throne the whole 5th chapter makes no sense.

So what? Screw it.

It also states in "nightingales" that tharn tried to eliminate drayven after he retrivied the staff of chaos, so if thats the case barenziah couldn't have spent several years having an affair with him and finding out the locations of the staff of chaos (why would he know these anyway?" so was she just with Tharn the whole time? Honestly Im not buying this new story, it really does seem shoe horned in to try and establish the Nightingales in the lore rather than just being a new thing in TES V.

And yet, it fits better than TRB with what we've seen in the games. But I see your point. New things are bad. The more nostalgia a book elicits, the more reliable its information, of course.

[Raynil dralas]

Wasn't the whole Nightingales thing written for skyrim anyway? I don't recall any mention of nocturnal and the 3 nightingales before then. The whole thing screams of awkward retconning to give the nightingales some cool back ground. And I was always under the impression that the auther of the real B only became friends with her after the book was written, im pretty sure she initially tried to stop it from being released, theres a quest in daggerfall to that effect if i recall. If the nightingale wasn't tharn then pretty much the whole 5th chapter loses its impact, its so great to read because it all comes together and whats worse even after she finds out she continues her affair with Tharn/the false emperor.

Mero was a trusted "friend" before the book was written; that's how he made the book in the first place.

Basically, there was one passage Barenziah apparently didn't like, so the Daggerfall quest holds up. She wanted the book released in the end, just after it had been edited.

If she was just toying around with some thief while Tharn sat on the throne the whole 5th chapter makes no sense.

So what? Screw it.

It also states in "nightingales" that tharn tried to eliminate drayven after he retrivied the staff of chaos, so if thats the case barenziah couldn't have spent several years having an affair with him and finding out the locations of the staff of chaos (why would he know these anyway?" so was she just with Tharn the whole time? Honestly Im not buying this new story, it really does seem shoe horned in to try and establish the Nightingales in the lore rather than just being a new thing in TES V.

And yet, it fits better than TRB with what we've seen in the games. But I see your point. New things are bad. The more nostalgia a book elicits, the more reliable its information, of course.

Im just more inclined to believe something established in the lore for 20yrs than something shoe horned into skyrim, which is pretty full of poor writing, Its a disapointing change to the cannon which makes little sense, feels rather forced and adds nothing to an already interesting topic in the Lore.

[Minor Edits]

Im just more inclined to believe something established in the lore for 20yrs than something shoe horned into skyrim, which is pretty full of poor writing, Its a disapointing change to the cannon which makes little sense, feels rather forced and adds nothing to an already interesting topic in the Lore.

Right. It's the same reason people continue to believe in their parents' religion after they've developed critical thinking skills. It was the first thing they were exposed to, so it must be right. But what if we'd been exposed to The Nightingales first? I feel that if that were the case, people would probably lodge the same aspersions against TRB's narrative. I don't think this is fair, and the quality of other writing in Skyrim is immaterial. Better to judge on the merits.

It makes sense out of Barenziah's mysterious relationship with Mero. It would add a whole new child and grandchild for Barenziah and, as I said, would give insight into the intricacy with which she plotted her political machinations. It enriches her and the other associated characters. The only thing it really challenges is the last two volumes of TRB, and frankly, I don't care. TRB is a snooze fest, in my opinion.

Barenziah would've needed no extra encouragement to get close to the Emperor, the acme of political power on Tamriel; the narrative presented by The Nightingales doesn't deprive her of motives for her actions. So what about it "makes little sense"? What about it is "forced"? In my view, the issue of Mero's relationship with Barenziah was something which has begged an explanation since Tribunal, and The Nightingales provided that explanation. Rulers don't usually like keeping around people who had betrayed them. But Mero wasn't a friend who had betrayed her, he was her propagandist.

Retcons =/= bad. TES is dominated by the issue of the unreliable narrator. Little if anything can be taken as the unadulterated truth, and TRB is and never has been any different. There have been many retcons, and undoubtedly still more to come, so it's best to keep an open mind. Nostalgia is natural, but also irrational and arbitrary, and one shouldn't let it sour an otherwise good story.

Anyway, I don't even see this as a retcon, really, because all it does is provide a new counter-point to a work of historical fiction (which should never ever be confused with historical fact). Nothing has been changed, it's merely that nuances have been revealed. Big difference.

[Raynil dralas]

I think you're thinking too much about the game world and not considering the writing process, i can almost guarantee you that up until writing the thieves guild quest line for skyrim the fact tharn was the nightingale was pretty much fact. The whole nightingales buisness is a new thing to skyrim and they haven't been in the lore in the past. It seems to me the writers wanted to give them some impact and make it seem like they were always around and they thought "hey what about the nightingale? That names the same, how about we just say that he was a nightingale all along? Never mind the 20 years of established canon! We need to make these guys sound cool!" for me it just ruins the story of tharn and baranziah, it'd be like the starwars sequels revealing that darth vader wasn't actually anakin all that time it was actually this new character we made but hey hes cool so it doesn't matter!

[Minor Edits]

As I said, it's not really throwing out established canon, merely adding nuance to it. The writers must be free to make the work their own, or else the series would stagnate like a formulaic sitcom. I'd argue that the events of The Real Barenziah were never supposed to be understood as the whole truth, and the writers likely knew that better than anyone, even in the days of Daggerfall. Look at the differing accounts of the War of Betony. The Daggerfall writes were the architects of TES' unreliable narrator; I don't think they would be likely to complain about the Skyrim writers adding a nuance to their yarn (assuming that was the case). Like 2920, The Wolf Queen, and many other texts, TRB is a work of in-game historical fiction which should never be understood as conveying the pure, unadulterated truth of the TES universe. If that's how you chose to view it, I think that was a mistake. TRB was merely how some mortal(s) chose to construe and express certain events. It was never supposed to be a clean lens through which we could view the past without bias.

As far as Tharn is concerned, all The Nightingales would indicate is that he was not the one who took the Staff of Chaos from beneath Mournhold. It's a relatively small event in the grand scheme of things. He was still the one who manipulated the Staff, split it up, took over the Empire, etc. So he outsourced a robbery job to a master thief. So what? If you're insistent on maintaining the heartwarming love story between Tharn and Barenziah, the unreliable narrator plays both ways. The Nightingales may not be imparting the whole truth, either. There's room to adapt the narrative how you wish to preserve the essence of that relationship while still including Drayven Indoril in the scheme of things, with a little imagination.

As long as you're bringing Star Wars into the mix, I'll use that as an example: iirc, there was a character added in the Star Wars extended universe named Mara Jade. Don't know if those upcoming theatrical cash grabs will include her, but in one of the novels, it's revealed that she infiltrated Jabba's pleasure yacht during Return of the Jedi in order to assassinate Luke. Is that throwing out years of "established canon"? No, it's merely telling you something about the established story that you didn't know before. TES lore does this with each and every game in a multitude of ways. If that premise is disturbing to you, I imagine it must be hard to enjoy this series at all. I find it's best to keep an open mind. This is relatively small-time stuff; there are actual retcons to get upset about.

[Snail's Pace]

it'd be like the starwars sequels revealing that darth vader wasn't actually anakin all that time it was actually this new character we made but hey hes cool so it doesn't matter!

But didn't one of the sequels reveal that Darth Vader was Anakin?

[Br3admax]

it'd be like the starwars sequels revealing that darth vader wasn't actually anakin all that time it was actually this new character we made but hey hes cool so it doesn't matter!

But didn't one of the sequels reveal that Darth Vader was Anakin?

The poster fails to realise that comparing an actually seen event to a book written in response to propaganda is a wasted effort. If Skyrim said, "And then Nightingale took Barenziah close only to find she was actually a man." It's be comparable. But it didn't, so it isn't.

@ME: My sentiments exactly.