Is Sheogorath a Good daedra?

[Fallenlegend]

Yeah I know what you are thinking. "Daedra don't have human morality nor they understand it and they only follow their respective spheres". But there is a possible exception in Sheogorath that might classify him as a good daedra.Why? because he was the champion of cyrodill.

If he is indeed the champion of cyrodill and by canon the champion saved Tamriel from the oblivion crisis and he was a human that understood the concepts of good or evil.Not counting player actions the champion did good things to the point he was called champion, saviour and hero. Even his actions in skyrim have been definitively good and more benevolent than his predecessor as he helped to heal an insane dead emperor (would old Sheogorath had done that?) and he outright complimented Martin Septim actions as if he cared that something good was done in favor of the mortals.

"You are the best Septim that's ever ruled. Well, except for that Martin fellow, but he turned into a dragon god, and that's hardly sporting..."

Maybe the champion is using his new godly position as a daedra to help tamriel like he did when he was a human? and therefore he might be a good daedra?. He has lots of reasons to root for man/mer that other dadedra don't have (so Martin's sacrifice wasn't in vain).

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Classifying a Daedra according to human mortal concepts like good or evil would be - well - insane. They're alien beings, born of chaos, with no paternal ties to Mundus. Their behavior, motivation and minds are utterly unfathomable to mere men and mer. Sheogorath in particular is an infamous trickster and has a legendary short temper and tendency to violently change his mind and personality on a whim. Kidnapping entire islands or having people murdered for wearing beards are among his past accomplishments, as was tricking Lie Rock into hurtling towards Morrowind, which eventually caused devastation when Vivec's enchantments disappeared. To call him good is a leap of faith of the highest order. He's not bad, but he's not good. He's amoral, like a young child or an animal. They all are. The Daedra that is. They're children pulling the wings off insects. Don't fall for their almost human personalities or appearances. That's true insanity.

[Fallenlegend]

Classifying a Daedra according to human mortal concepts like good or evil would be - well - insane. They're alien beings, born of chaos, with no paternal ties to Mundus. Their behavior, motivation and minds are utterly unfathomable to mere men and mer. Sheogorath in particular is an infamous trickster and has a legendary short temper and tendency to violently change his mind and personality on a whim. Kidnapping entire islands or having people murdered for wearing beards are among his past accomplishments, as was tricking Lie Rock into hurtling towards Morrowind, which eventually caused devastation when Vivec's enchantments disappeared. To call him good is a leap of faith of the highest order. He's not bad, but he's not good. He's amoral, like a young child or an animal. They all are. The Daedra that is. They're children pulling the wings off insects. Don't fall for their almost human personalities or appearances. That's true insanity.

Did you even read, the post? or just the title? (rethorical question). It's not "insane" to speculate he might be good if this guy was once the one that pretty much saved Tamriel in the oblivion crisis.

[CBR JGWRR]

Did you even read, the post? or just the title? (rethorical question). It's not "insane" to speculate he might be good if this guy was once the one that pretty much saved Tamriel in the oblivion crisis.

Walk like them until they walk like you - essence of mantling. The C of C, save perhaps a few memories, is gone.

But, since you rule out the correct answer in your opening line, well.

[BetaB17]

To make things short, Sheo really isn't good nor evil.. or at least to the human concepts that we associate as such<_<

Daedra aren't necessarily 'evil', chaotic yes but they very much can do acts that benefit others.. thing is, anything they do is within their best interest, not yours no matter how grand or cruel the objective is. Daedra are selfish, simple as that Hell the Aedra aren't much different despite how much they are praised as holy beings.. but ppl forget all too well they are equally adept at good deeds as they are at evil, only difference is they are willing to sacrifice their personal gain for another's. Mortals are nothing more than playthings to them, they cannot help but be interested in Mundas itself. Granted many have done deeds to wreck havok and have made attempts to take Tamriel for themselves.. but I find that there are less records to the many times they have helped prevent disasters or put an end to an evil. While it is in their best interests you can't discredit the various ways mortals have benefited from their actions. I mean hell, would you like it if somebody came by and started ruining your toy box? I think not

Also because I feel this should be addressed.. the CoC, despite being the hero, doesn't have to be a good guy<_< he could of been a mass murdering phsycho-path strung up on skooma One sole act for the greater good of Tamriel doesn't change who you are or what your motives were. The CoC could of been a man of justice, or a lawless assassin, or a charitable thief, all are equally possible. But I guess in truth what matters is what the public reveres him for, for that is what will be recorded in history. Also.. Sheo prior to the events of the DlC and after has changed very little. The CoC took upon himself the very essence and influence of Sheo, thus in turn taking it upon himself what it is to be the Madgod. Yeah he does still retain old memories, but he's far from the same hero who stopped Dagon.. quite simply.. he's just as insane as he has ever been.

Now to the real depth of the question.. what is Sheogorath's relation with mortals and his choice of actions reflect on his motives. I find that compared to most other Daedra.. he may very well be one of the few to truly be nuetral despite his chaotic nature. He loves to entertain himself with mortals. He really should be feared when he grows bored or by some means you insulted his ways or the creative minds that he loves to foster. If anything, if he truly wishes to cause harm he hardly needs to do a thing, preferring to let you or convince others to do it for him.. all the while he enjoys the cruel irony. If anything the most harm is not done by him but by those that seem to worship him, doing great harm to themselves and others. He hardly even shows a great interest to take Tamriel for himself.. which is well.. mad even for a daedra. So if you really must know, don't think of him as good nor evil.. but simply troubling, thus is why ppl fear him and rightfully so. To whatever will entertain him, he shall do, so whatever you do.. just don't grow a beard

[Minor Edits]

Of course, "good" doesn't really apply to Daedra. I think of them as forces of natures with bad attitudes. The pre-Shivering Isles Sheo seemed to enjoy screwing with people quite a bit. He even sends you to murder a battlemage in Daggerfall. Even Azura, often considered a "good" daedra, sends you to kill a priest in Daggerfall for committing the atrocious crime of speaking poorly of her. They all seem to have uncompromising instincts and pride which dictate much of their conduct, so under this premise, the question of morality typically doesn't enter into it.

But I must say that I liked how they handled Sheo in Skyrim, as his conduct could be interpreted as benevolent or malevolent. Since many players, like me, believe this Sheo was their Oblivion character, leaving the morality of his conduct open to interpretation was essential.

Some may argue that this is irrelevant; that anything of the Oblivion player character is gone. You can look at it that way, but I believe Bethesda put some thought into this to leave room open for other interpretations. Every living thing changes with time and experience, and yet stays the same. A lot of time has passed, and I'm sure Sheo got into some crazy **** in the Fourth Era, but he's still the same person he was - the Hero of Kvatch, the Savior of Bruma, the Champion of Cyrodiil, the Divine Crusader. I think it only makes sense that these experiences would influence his predisposition as the Prince of Madness, and there's no real reason to think that CoC's previous life experience would cease to influence him in any way.

Personally, I view post-Shivering Sheo as a good guy (because I played a good guy) with a stressful job which literally forces him to occasionally do things he doesn't want to. He's on vacation when we see him in Skyrim; I can't imagine a Prince would go on vacation if he was happy with his work. But I view the whole thing as being elaborately planned (or providently improvised) so that he could wield his power to do some good. By going "on holiday", he found a way to help both Pelagius III and the Skyrim player character, freeing the former's spirit of madness and rewarding the latter with a powerful weapon.

Players with evil Oblivion characters could spin it around and say Sheo was tormenting them, and put the Skyrim character's life at risk with depraved disregard. But don't listen to them. They're evil.

[Fallenlegend]

Did you even read, the post? or just the title? (rethorical question). It's not "insane" to speculate he might be good if this guy was once the one that pretty much saved Tamriel in the oblivion crisis.

Walk like them until they walk like you - essence of mantling. The C of C, save perhaps a few memories, is gone.

But, since you rule out the correct answer in your opening line, well.

but he didn't "mantle" to become sheogorath did he?. Maybe there is something left of the old hero after all.

who says the champion is completely gone? is it canon?.

I don't want to get you guys mad. I am just hopeful.

[BetaB17]

The CoC as you know and love has been overtaken by madness. Sheo's influence is alot more dominate and powerful than any mortal's.. especially when we're talking about one of the strongest Daedra. There a split interpretations on to how the CoC is Sheo, namely depending on how literal one takes a certain quote prior to mantling. Some may believe the new Sheo and the CoC are one and the same, others may see it as a mortal vessel and a Daedra's will, either way they come to the same conclusion as far as you are concerned.

If this helps you in any manner, think of it like a hive mind in some fantasies, a collection of souls. Often times it's hard for one to retain individuality and become the dominate trait when opposed by overwhelming collection. Think of Sheo as the sole entity, the 'hive mind' one could say. His power is unquestionable, and his will can certainly overtake any's to whom he wished. With the CoC now 'absorbed' into this overwhelming influence, it's hard for him/her to retain individuality or exert any influence that opposes the collective<_< so while memories hold no value in this scenario.. his comments to his prior life give hints that some of his own traits are still present. I mean look at his respect for Martin <_< normally a Daedra would find some way to detest him for sealing away the doors to oblivion.. though a counter balance to this is Dagon didn't get what he wanted.. so Tamriel is still up for grabs by all means. Anyways I'm pretty sure the new Sheo is still the same old madgod as before, so even if he once was a great hero that won't stop him from meddling with mortals..

[Pilaf The Defiler]

There's plenty of evidence that this "new" Sheogorath is still just Sheogorath indeed. That's how mantling of a Daedric concept works. In Lord of Souls, Malacath refers to his past life as Trinimac as being something beautiful he longs for but can't touch. A shadow of an echo of a memory, nothing more. That's what "new" Sheogorath's past life as a mortal is to him. He remembers. He's powerless to act, though, as he embodies the chaotic sphere of mental illness. A Daedra is utterly bound by his sphere. He cannot act outside of it. That was the consequence of choosing to remain et'Ada and not bind themselves to the Earthbones like the Aedra did. They retain ultimate power within their own spheres, such as they are, but they can't leave them. They can't act outside what they are any more. An Aedra can continue to grow and change through his offspring/creations, the mortal races and Nirn itself, but the Daedra can't create or grow. They are what they are and can't be anything else. The fact that "new" Sheogorath eventually took on an identical look, voice and mannerisms to the original is strong evidence that the person he used to be is circumvented by the Font of Madness itself.

[Fallenlegend]

There's plenty of evidence that this "new" Sheogorath is still just Sheogorath indeed. That's how mantling of a Daedric concept works. In Lord of Souls, Malacath refers to his past life as Trinimac as being something beautiful he longs for but can't touch. A shadow of an echo of a memory, nothing more. That's what "new" Sheogorath's past life as a mortal is to him. He remembers. He's powerless to act, though, as he embodies the chaotic sphere of mental illness. A Daedra is utterly bound by his sphere. He cannot act outside of it. That was the consequence of choosing to remain et'Ada and not bind themselves to the Earthbones like the Aedra did. They retain ultimate power within their own spheres, such as they are, but they can't leave them. They can't act outside what they are any more. An Aedra can continue to grow and change through his offspring/creations, the mortal races and Nirn itself, but the Daedra can't create or grow. They are what they are and can't be anything else. The fact that "new" Sheogorath eventually took on an identical look, voice and mannerisms to the original is strong evidence that the person he used to be is circumvented by the Font of Madness itself.

That was beautiful thank you and thank you too beta.


One has to wonder if this was really a "prize" for the champion after all.

[CBR JGWRR]

Did you even read, the post? or just the title? (rethorical question). It's not "insane" to speculate he might be good if this guy was once the one that pretty much saved Tamriel in the oblivion crisis.

Walk like them until they walk like you - essence of mantling. The C of C, save perhaps a few memories, is gone.

But, since you rule out the correct answer in your opening line, well.

but he didn't "mantle" to become sheogorath did he?. Maybe there is something left of the old hero after all.

who says the champion is completely gone? is it canon?.

I don't want to get you guys mad. I am just hopeful.

Its the way ES games handle the Hero, once the Event is done.

[Br3admax]

That was beautiful thank you and thank you too beta.


One has to wonder if this was really a "prize" for the champion after all.

I've never wondered such things; heroes were made to be used and thrown away. If anything, it definitely was, considering the fate of most of the CoC's fellows.

[legoless]

but he didn't "mantle" to become sheogorath did he?.

Yep, he did, that was the entire grand strategy.

Compare the Sheogorath we see in any of the other games to Jyggalag. Is there any evidence that he has ulterior motives, secretly working to bring order to things or restore his realm? No, he's the Prince of Madness, and does the very opposite, even fighting against himself. Why, then, would our Hero retain even a hint of compassion for Tamriel?

[Woodhouse]

Calling a daedra good or evil can be tricky, but we can estimate their affinity for Lorkhan. The CoC mantled Pelinal before mantling Sheogorath, and Sheogorath's 'birth' is said to have coincided with Lorkhan's unmaking. So if you view Lorkhan as a pretty good dude, then I think you can say Sheogorath isn't too bad either.

On the other hand, he is literally one of the bad daedra and a corner of the house of troubles. He stands in contrast to the three 'good daedra'- mephala, boethia, and azura. All three of whom seem to respect Lorkhan and his heart, and hate when gods/mortals speak poorly of him/manipulate his heart.

With that said, I have no final answer.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Sheogorath's classification as a "bad Daedra" is mostly relevant to the Dunmer, of course, and makes just about as much sense as Boethiah or Mephala being "good Daedra", which is not very much sense.

[Woodhouse]

I'm not sure about oblivion, but in Morrowind and Skyrim, there was a lot of wheel imagery. Mostly in Morrowind's "Sermons of Vivec" and Skyrim's "The Last Dragonborn". The wheel imagery only makes sense because there are 8 spokes(divines) and 16 spaces(daedra). By Boethia and Mephala taking Triminac, who hated mundus, and turning him into the final daedric prince, they helped Lorkhan and Magnus complete the wheel. With that in mind I think that it makes sense to designate them as 'good'.

[Br3admax]

Lorkhan made the Mundas, the Wheel, and all it took was the death of all his vassals.

Auriel slaughtered countless Wandering Elfoney and denied them a place in his kingdom, to stabilize the Mundas.

Vivec, even if he didn't murder the Hortator, left the Ministry of Truth hanging over his people everyday to prove a point and to stabilize the wheel.

Uriel Septim spent the better part of his life manipulating the Empire and crushed all of his opponents to stabilize the Wheel.

Yes, and Talos helped stabilize Mundus, bring back the missing god, and helped bring about the chain of events that would send Alduin back to his designated purpose. And all he did was commit genocide across the continent, manipulate the most famous figures in Tamrielic history, murder his emperor and his most trusted advisor, steal his soul, and then completely obliterate the entire Aldmeri Dominion, women and children included.

I ask you: what is good, and what does continuing this Convention have to do with it?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I'm not sure about oblivion, but in Morrowind and Skyrim, there was a lot of wheel imagery. Mostly in Morrowind's "Sermons of Vivec" and Skyrim's "The Last Dragonborn". The wheel imagery only makes sense because there are 8 spokes(divines) and 16 spaces(daedra). By Boethia and Mephala taking Triminac, who hated mundus, and turning him into the final daedric prince, they helped Lorkhan and Magnus complete the wheel. With that in mind I think that it makes sense to designate them as 'good'.

There is definitely a wheel in TES IV. It appears again later in Skyrim, as a page in the Oghma Infintium.

[Woodhouse]

Thats awesome

[Minor Edits]

There is definitely a wheel in TES IV. It appears again later in Skyrim, as a page in the Oghma Infintium.

Oh, look, another insightful comment from Pilaf. How typical.

You need start posting walls of obscenity, just to lower the bar for yourself.

[Woodhouse]

Interesting how Septimus thought the box contained the heart. Maybe it only contained its location? It would make sense that, if it were in the Imperial City, Dagon would go there first

[Br3admax]

There is definitely a wheel in TES IV. It appears again later in Skyrim, as a page in the Oghma Infintium.

Oh, look, another insightful comment from Pilaf. How typical.

You need start posting walls of obscenity, just to lower the bar for yourself.

I've been saying that for years now. Can't usually keep up most of the time.

Interesting how Septimus thought the box contained the heart. Maybe it only contained its location? It would make sense that, if it were in the Imperial City, Dagon would go there first

I doubt the Heart is in the Imperial City, regardless. I believe the actual translation of the text is what Mora meant to Septimus, as also is the text itself. I believe that's on the Imperial Library, and that the Wheel merely represents Convention. The texts basically speaks of how the book was sealed away, for it is forbidden knowledge. Lorkhan is knowledge and changed personified, as "AE HERMA MORA ALTADOON PADHOME. LKHAN AE AI."

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The heart is unbound from Mundus, meaning it has no fixed physical presence. It's free to roam, like the Shezarrines of old. Not sure what the full implications of this will be in the future, and if and how it ties in with the concept of Landfall. Time will tell.

[MidbossVyers]

Given that Skyrim's Sheogorath talked about foxes and severed heads, it's implied that this Champion of Cyrodiil joined the Thieves Guild and the Dark Brotherhood. See how there's no reference to the Fighters and Mages Guilds.

[OblivionDuruza]

I really wouldn't take off-hand comments from Skyrim's Sheogorath as any kind of indication as to the canon events of Oblivion. Even if the theory was correct, the only thing you could say is that the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are confirmed, not that the Fighters and Mages Guilds are confirmed not to be canon.