The Vampirism Mentality (lore?)

[AnnaMolly]

I didn't see another recent thread on this, but I play a Vampire and am curious.

We've obviously seen some Vampires that maintain their humanity to some degree and some that have been driven nearly insane due to the disease. So I've been thinking; what actually causes a vampire to join a coven and live in a cave? You see hints of their humanity as you make your way through their lairs, this leads me to believe that the 'bloodthirsty' vampire isn't always born from the disease, but rather from the stigma surrounding the disease. Consider the idea of everyone you've known and loved turning against you because you are "no longer you, you're a monster" while you're still you with a new need to drink blood. So basically, the fear of Vampires seems to be based upon a medieval ignorance. What the people of Tamriel see as a monster is usually just someone suffering from a disease. Though I know there are those who embrace this "monster". My main question here is where does the monster come from? Is it a mental effect from vampirism such as the obsessive and impulsive thirst for blood that makes most vampires act as monsters or are they driven to do so by the stigma surrounding them?

On drinking blood...
Does TES lore state that Vampires MUST drink human blood or can they drink an animal's blood if provided? It seems that there ARE certain alternatives like the Potions of Blood in Dawnguard. Are these potions just bottled blood or are they an actual potion that mimics the ingestion of blood?

Either way, I'm curious as to what would happen if the White Phial were filled with either blood or a Potion of Blood. Would it become and endless supply of blood, giving a vampire one feeding per day or would the impure use of the artifact merely corrupt it? If it really would refill any liquid placed in it, wouldn't the White Phial be highly sought after by vampires wanting to maintain their social life?

[AKB]

No matter how you try to paint them, vampirism is a curse laid upon Nirn by the Daedric Prince of Domination and Rape, Molag Bal; a vampire is an immortal abomination that replaces the now dead being it used to be, feeds upon the living to remain sane, and can only be cured through some obscure magics or final death.

First allow me to address the notion that vampires are facing unfair social stigma. Assuming vampires can somehow feed on regular food instead of people's blood, or if they somehow find willing donors, the gods themselves still reject vampires. It's pretty hard to go against gods in a world where their influence is very clear and real, so accepting a vampire into your civilization wouldn't just be impractical from the "wolf among the sheep" position, but also because accepting vampires as people is quite simply unholy.

The majority of vampires who you can talk to civilly are not just their old selves, they are just better at blending in. Look at a "good" vampire like Janus Hassildor, who runs his county peacefully, and even ensures no other vampires harm his citizens besides the Pale Lady who he has harvesting blood from anyone unfortunate to find their way into his prison. If there was an easier way where you could just drink animal blood, someone like Janus would obviously want to try it, but there is no sign that anything but blood from one of the races can sustain them. I can point out vampire ruins with animal carcasses about, but that just seems to go with the territory of living outside civilization. As for potions of blood, well, there certainly is enough human blood around wherever you can usually find them to indicate their actual source. As for just not drinking blood, it seems clear that even if you avoid the insanity or crippling weakness of vampires like Lovidicus or Rona Hassildor respectively, the side effects make it so you just can't live in civilization anymore due to your physical repulsiveness.

There is also no indication that it is not blood in blood potions, there is no recipe to craft these potions or mention of any kind of inorganic blood in the world. Either way, blood isn't a limited commodity in Nirn either way. That's also the issue with using the White Phial for this purpose, blood is in good supply while there is only one White Phial, and last we saw it was broken and attuned to just work for one kind of potion that wasn't blood. Besides, what good is a social life, something that only lasts as long as the people in the group do, to a vampire, an immortal being who will watch all of those people die if they also aren't made into vampires? And if you turn all your friends into vampires, suddenly all your friends are vampires. No matter if they are born into a coven or are born through some fluke incident, a vampire is eventually just going to be hanging out with vampires, or no one. Those are your options for a vampire going past their "natural" lifespan, when the disease becomes obvious either way (as suggested by Vincente Valtieri during Darkness Eternal, although that quest is poorly documented at the moment, I'll try to fill in that gap when I return home); either total isolation or membership in a vampire coven.

And it is important to note that I can't find any example of a vampire just going on in civilization after they should have died (feel free to correct me if you know one!). They all seem to become isolationists or are a member of a vampire family. My guess is that vampirism changes your mindset, you stop thinking in the short term and you stop seeing people as anything but food from living out more than a lifetime by feeding on them. Some of the rare coherent vampires still show signs of what I see as legitimate insanity, like Jakben, with odd comments such as "The cattle of this city know me as Jakben, Earl of Imbel. Centuries ago I knew myself as Springheel Jak, the famous thief. I seem to recall having a famous partner, but his name escapes me. No matter. I have grown beyond friends and partners. I rule the night here in the city." making it clear that even if he lives among people, he is not one anymore. No matter how you cut it, vampires are predators, and people are their prey. They cannot live hand in hand.

[AnnaMolly]

Well, as you point out, there are no vampires that blend in with society without blood being involved, Jakben Imbel hunts the Imperial City at night and Janus Hassildor. Being a Count or Jarl or the like is a very good position to be in from a vampire's point of view due to jails and prisoners within, Sybille Stentor benefits from this too. Though it is mentioned that Vampires can eat food. Vicente Valtieri mentions a garlic allergy and asks Ocheeva to make another member refrain from cooking with it. Babette implies that she can not only eat but taste food when you are to kill a certain Chef. You also see wine and cook pots in some lairs. I think the thirst for blood is a new need where eating food is for pleasure.

[Woodhouse]

I don't know if a vampire coven is necessary, a vampire could hang out with mages with extremely long life times in order to maintain a social life. As for the losing the mind thing, it could be from one or more of what seem to me to be the main three causes. 1: Lack of feeding
2: Social stigma ( due to either them being abominations in the eyes of the divines and even many daedra, from their feeding on humans, or both.)
3: Simply from the disease taking its toll on a person's mind.

To me, it seems that if people just all donated a little blood into a vampire blood bank, then the first cause would be taken care of, along with part of the social stigma. Vampires who can live forever and don't really need to concern themselves with the trivial problems that normal mortals have to deal with should be able to pitch in to the community. Also, if vampries were more open about their existences, then I'm sure that more research would go into the remedies for the third cause. However, they are the result of Molag Bal's tempering with Nirn, so I doubt that the above ideas would be very practical.

To answer your question though, I believe that the 'monster' part of vampires part social stigma part the disease itself, with social stigma being given primacy- See Serana and that count from Oblivion for my reasoning.

[AnnaMolly]

I agree that the stigma is one of the things that cause the behavior, though most vampires are wolves walking amongst cattle as AKB said. AKB's answer strikes me as one that would come from a scholar of Nirn, it was lore-based, and I enjoyed reading it.

I DO believe that there are ulterior motives in mant vampires social interactions but I'm not really sure how much of the mind vampirism changes, maybe there is no lore written on the very specific details of the mental changes from mortal to vampire.

That and part of me really wishes you could've had Quintus fill the White Phial with blood, if not just to see his reaction. XD

[MataataVonFawks]

Vampires can feed on animal blood, but it isn't as "filling" as mortal blood, since it doesn't have as much power in it.
There's also vampire coven in Elder Scrolls Online that avoids feeding on humans by feeding on hoarvors (which are basically giant ticks that feed on humans).

Anyone here ever read Immortal Blood? It's a pretty interesting look into different characteristics of vampires.

[Zero_The_Dark]

I'm curious on a source for the animal blood thing, is this your own speculation or is this from somewhere?

Also I'm fairly certain that most people in the lore section have read a lot of the big lore books, especially the ones in a vampirism thread will likely be familiar with vampire related lore.

[legoless]

Animal blood is mentioned several times in ESO. Haven't encountered that hoarver thing, but a coven in Eastmarch subsists on animals (skeevers?) and a newly turned vamp you meet in Rivenspire vows to live on animals if you let her escape. However, members of the Eastmarch coven apparently have a history of occasionally going insane and slaughtering hundreds if they can't contain their hunger for humans, so it's not an optimal solution.

[Zero_The_Dark]

Ah, I haven't played ESO (and have no intention of doing so) and not too many of the ESO pages on the wiki have been updated so it's hard to find information that is present in it.

[AnnaMolly]

I'm still wondering what would happen if the White Phial were filled with human blood, though no lore, as far as I know, says anything about that.

[Travalanche]

Vampires are monsters nothing more or less. They feed on other humans/mer to survive and due to that they are parasitic by nature.

Needed to feed on humans/mer for sustenance is what causes vampires to live in caves away from human contact. It's nigh impossible to live near something that is basically food to you while remaining the same.

It would be like talking to your meal when you socialized with them which would be awkward.

I personally hate the concept of vampires but I tried to be as unbiased as possible. Werewolves on the other hand are at least honest in their endeavors because they are generally ignorant to their doings and kill their victims in one fell swoop rather than torture them and herd them like cattle.

[Mattbott]

It would be like talking to your meal when you socialized with them which would be awkward.

very good point

http://youtu.be/xK-zYBIuotE

[Imbalance]

I'm suddenly inspired to create a character who throughout his adventures carries only a folded cloth and the Oghma Infinium, and never changes out of his robe.

[Borol gro-Brol]

That and part of me really wishes you could've had Quintus fill the White Phial with blood, if not just to see his reaction. XD

This reminds of when I wanted an option to choose Skooma, or perhaps mead, maybe even some Surillie wine. I was playing a nord at the time and didn't use stamina potions but rather cheap and plentiful alcohol. I just wanted something that would last me forever.

[Minor Edits]

The Vampire mentality: [&@%!] everyone else, I'm gonna get mine.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I'm certain that an individual vampire's mentality is influenced heavily by his original mortal self and what kind of vampire he became. There are many different kinds of people with many different personalities, and from what I've seen of TES vampires they retain quite a bit of their original self, albeit with the more bestial aspects amplified.

We also know of several different actual strains of the disease/curse which affect the mind in different ways. If a person is seeking to be cured, actively, or seems to be trying to subsist on animals or willing subjects rather than preying on innocents, I think that's a reflection on the mortal person they used to be, and such a subject shouldn't be lumped together with the more barbaric vampires or labeled a "monster." Many of these vampires are victims who never asked to become vampires in the first place, and don't enjoy being one.

Keep in mind the first vampire was created through rape, and that act is often mirrored somewhat in how it's spread. I can't bring myself to hate someone who had something awful forced on them, even if they become something monstrous themselves. Sure, many of them need to be put down, but there shouldn't be any hate or disdain involved. Does the exterminator hate the cockroach? No. It's a dispassionate sort of cleansing. So must the Brotherhood of Arkay view the vampires who show no remorse for what they are. Pitiable vermin.

[SM-Dreamer]

I'm certain that an individual vampire's mentality is influenced heavily by his original mortal self and what kind of vampire he became. There are many different kinds of people with many different personalities, and from what I've seen of TES vampires they retain quite a bit of their original self, albeit with the more bestial aspects amplified.

This is close to my thought on the subject. I wonder if some of the insanity often seen in vampires is more the mental toll that immortality can take on a mind unused to it. Also the mindset imposed at having to feed off of another sentient being, becoming a parasite, a hunter, a monster - I think that just having to cope with that might turn some people towards insanity, while it might make some show more signs of a beast that may have already been present within them, and still yet there are those that crave power. Now having it, it might continue to corrupt them.

So it might not be the disease itself, but the perception of what the disease forces one to do and the toll that takes that might cause what we see as the mindset, plus elements of the original personality.

[AKB]

I think the point about vampires retaining some of their core personality has merit, but I think it leaves out the point of how the types of personality that can go through with the transition into unlife are more limited than at first glance. Take Rona Hassildor, one of the few truly different vampires as she refuses to drink blood, and is only still alive in some fashion because of her husband's protection. I would imagine that based on this, most vampires like Rona die fairly quickly, as no one provides them the protection Janus gives his wife for the most part, and are likely to let themselves die to escape their state.

When you also take into account the more capable individuals who could obtain a cure if they wanted to, you're left with a much smaller group of possible vampires.

[SM-Dreamer]

This is true, and kind of what I meant (though I don't always manage to convey what I mean, lol). Th transition does provide a change, and I can see that those that don't want to be vampires might die out because they can't live as they are. But as I also said, I think that elements of the original personality are there, and that vampirism either brings out certain traits, or can drive a person mad if they have traits or morals that go against being vampires. Or there are those that manage to exist just fine, but they find themselves forced into seclusion so that they don't become the hunted.

And do not underestimate what isolation and loneliness can do to the mind.

[Crashen]

I think it is a number of factors. The human mind is not meant to handle immortality, add in the need to drink from sentient creatures, the knowledge that society sees you as a monster and WILL kill you if they find you and the sense of confusion and isolation that would entail. Now add in the realization that you are fundamentally BETTER than these people. Stronger, faster, immortal.

Also remember that generally there are two situations in which you are turned. Deliberately, in which case you are basically swept off to join your mentor who is now free to shape your outlook in your most vulnerable time.

The other situation is where it is an accident, which leaves you alone, confused and scared. Its probably like hyper-puberty, except your mood swings are fatal to those around you.

I think it all starts with a more feral state, AMD that can lead to insanity and evil, or even just sociopathy as time goes on.

And I think most underestimate the difficulty of befriending your food. I doubt most contemporary first world people could bring themselves to raise, slaughter and butcher cattle, without already being born to that lifestyle. Now imagine if that cattle looked like you, talked like you, and felt like you. It would wear on your sanity.

[MidbossVyers]

Vampires are monsters nothing more or less. They feed on other humans/mer to survive and due to that they are parasitic by nature.

Needed to feed on humans/mer for sustenance is what causes vampires to live in caves away from human contact. It's nigh impossible to live near something that is basically food to you while remaining the same.

It would be like talking to your meal when you socialized with them which would be awkward.

I personally hate the concept of vampires but I tried to be as unbiased as possible. Werewolves on the other hand are at least honest in their endeavors because they are generally ignorant to their doings and kill their victims in one fell swoop rather than torture them and herd them like cattle.

Strictly speaking then, all creatures are parasitic by nature, especially carnivores and omnivores, but even herbivores, as plants are alive, as well. In fact, the reason that any creature eats is to transfer the life energy from whatever food they eat into themselves. As for vampire mentality, I'll say this: Undeath is like money (undeath with a retained soul, of course, not just mindless skeleton dolls). It does not change or corrupt a person. It just amplifies what's already there. Of course, if you are consumed by your own bloodlust, then you are practically mindless.

[all_freed]

The Grey Prince's dad went nuts cause he didn't get to drink blood for a long time. But I don't know if all vampires are like that... probably not.

Also Serana and her mom were both locked away for a long time but I think neither of them fed on blood during their captivity. Maybe cause they're daughters of coldharbour and are therefore stronger or something.

[MidbossVyers]

I think it is a number of factors. The human mind is not meant to handle immortality, add in the need to drink from sentient creatures, the knowledge that society sees you as a monster and WILL kill you if they find you and the sense of confusion and isolation that would entail. Now add in the realization that you are fundamentally BETTER than these people. Stronger, faster, immortal.

Also remember that generally there are two situations in which you are turned. Deliberately, in which case you are basically swept off to join your mentor who is now free to shape your outlook in your most vulnerable time.

The other situation is where it is an accident, which leaves you alone, confused and scared. Its probably like hyper-puberty, except your mood swings are fatal to those around you.

I think it all starts with a more feral state, AMD that can lead to insanity and evil, or even just sociopathy as time goes on.

And I think most underestimate the difficulty of befriending your food. I doubt most contemporary first world people could bring themselves to raise, slaughter and butcher cattle, without already being born to that lifestyle. Now imagine if that cattle looked like you, talked like you, and felt like you. It would wear on your sanity.

Yes, but butchering cattle kills them. Feeding by non-feral vampires is usually nonlethal. In fact, certain vampires: http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Rargal_Thrallmaster will literally threaten to kill you if you kill any of their thralls.

[Crashen]

Whether you are killing them or not, the people you prey upon as a vampire cease to be people to you. They become a source of food. Rargal Thrallmaster only cares about his cattle because it's his job to manage the food supply, not because he has any emotional attachment to them, or feels any empathy for them. And thats the crux of the situation, and the vampire mentality. A loss of empathy for 'lesser' creatures. Arrogance and superiority goes hand in hand with vampirism, because vampires ARE superior to mortals, at least physically. So they feel superior to the things they feed on, and they see the things they feed on as a food source. That would go a long way towards sociopathy. Not all vampires have that mentality, of course, and some manage it in different ways, or to different degrees, but the vast majority seem to at the very least have massive superiority complexes. Much like Altmer.

Which makes me wonder if an Altmer would make the best, or worst, candidate for vampirism, because many of the benefits of vampirism (longevity, magical prowess, grace and quickness) are already present in the altmer race. It might be less of a shock, and less of a power-trip for an altmer to become a vampire. On the other hand, they already have massive egos and massive senses of superiority, so adding vampirism might just make them even worse. Would be an interesting character to explore.

[Dark Spark]

Continually dying of hunger, yet never being able to actually die, is bound to make anyone cranky whether they're a vampire or not.