Akatosh

[Woodhouse]

Alright lore buffs, I know that this has been hashed out at least 9000 times on Elder Scroll forums (probably including this one), but I want to try and get the whole Akatosh thing straight.

I know that before Alessia, Alduin was recognized by the Nords, and Auri-el by the Elves. Miraak was also around before Alessia, and he, along with Alduin (the dragon-king not world eater) both recognized Akatosh.

All this aside, during Alessia's life, but before the humans beat the Ayelids, Pelinal would refer to 'Aka'. I am also under the impression that the Nords, when the humans from Cyrodill started speading their religion, were confused by the idea of 'Akatosh', who reminded them of both Alduin and Auri-el. And yet, Miraak, who I presume was a Nord, was a dragon-born and knew about Akatosh, long before Alessia's death.

So did Miraak's knowledge of Akatosh just not spread to the other Nords and vanish with him? How did Alessia come up with the idea of Akatosh independently? Was she somehow get influenced by Miraak's knowledge? I am just simply missing something?

I would not be entirely unsatisfied if bethesda has not released the necessary lore to completely put together the puzzle, however I really hope the answer isn't "ummmm...dragon break?"

[legoless]

Miraak spent the majority of his existence in the endless libraries of Apocrypha, I'm sure he knows lots of stuff he shouldn't.

[Br3admax]

Logical Explanation: Miraak has access to almost literally limitless knowledge.

Lore Explanation: All Time gods and Dragons are pieces of the shattered soul of schizophrenic god named Aka, and when referring to "Akatosh," in game they're really referring to this deity, or the largest split, Aka-Tusk, but say Akatosh because he is the most prominent shard at the moment. It's safe to say that Alduin would have about zero knowledge who Akatosh is because that is a name from an era he didn't exist in Mundas.

[Minor Edits]

As I understand it, it's believed that Alessia didn't "come up with" Akatosh, but rather, prompted his (inherently retroactive) creation. Which could be off-base. Anyways, his subgradients can be confusing, which is why I often just generally refer to the "Time God" instead of giving him a specific moniker, unless context warrants it.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

There is direct evidence that the name "Akatosh" predates Alessia, in Shezarr and the Divines: The Ayleid Hegemonies are quickly overthrown. Shortly thereafter, White Gold Tower is captured by Alessia's forces, and she promptly declares herself the first Empress of Cyrodiil. Part of the package meant that she had to become the High Priestess of Akatosh, as well.

Same source goes on to say: Akatosh was an Aldmeri god, and Alessia's subjects were as-yet unwilling to renounce their worship of the Elven pantheon. She found herself in a very sensitive political situation. She needed to keep the Nords as her allies, but they were (at that time) fiercely opposed to any adoration of Elven deities. On the other hand, she could not force her subjects to revert back to the Nordic pantheon, for fear of another revolution. Therefore, concessions were made and Empress Alessia instituted a new religion: the Eight Divines, an elegant, well-researched synthesis of both pantheons, Nordic and Aldmeri.

In my reckoning, Akatosh was a regional name for the Ayleid version of Auri-El. Besides the Daedra they had pacts with, they worshiped Ten Ancestors, and some of them were different from gods in other pantheons. Instead of Z'en or Zeht they had Zenithar. Instead of Jephre they had Kynareth, etc. Having a different identity and name for the Time God fits that pattern.

How the ancient Nords had knowledge of the name Akatosh, aside from the obvious influence of Hermaeus Mora, might be explained by the sources (Monomyth and Varieties of Faith) that indicate Elves once lived on Atmora. Their beliefs may have influenced the Dragon Cult and other groups.

[Minor Edits]

A timeline, though, is meaningless to a fourth dimensional being. From the perspective of linear time, Akatosh has always been, regardless of what instigated his creation.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

My point is that we don't even need to go that deep into metaphysical lore to explain the ancient usage of the name Akatosh. Completely mundane explanations suffice. Occam's Razor and all that. It's simply a misconception that the name Akatosh is relatively new. In all likelihood it was one of His names from the beginning of recorded history.

[Br3admax]

Of course your source could also be using the most common name for the same reason as the dragons. It's the most commonly used name across Tamriel. I'm also pretty sure the Ayleids used Auri-El, not Akatosh.

[Woodhouse]

So Akatosh was just another name for Auri-el? I don't know. From all accounts I've seen, Akatosh and Auri-el are completely different in regards to their views on men and Lorkhan. Even in Skyrim, Auri-el remains the preferred term among the snow elves, bosmer, and altmer, while Akatosh seems mostly worshipped/recognized by men and dragons.

If Akatosh was really just a regional name for Auri-el used by the Ayelids, then their Akatosh is much different than the Akatosh of men and dragons. I would wager that when the Ayelids referred to 'Akatosh', they meant something entirely different then Miraak.



And a quick side note, does anyone know how Miraak determined he was a dragonborn and that he was connected to Akatosh? Are we assuming that he figured it out on his own or with the help of Mora?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Of course your source could also be using the most common name for the same reason as the dragons. It's the most commonly used name across Tamriel. I'm also pretty sure the Ayleids used Auri-El, not Akatosh.

I'm of a mind that Akatosh was an Ayleid name for Auri-El. Not the Ayleid name. I don't think there's such a thing as the Ayleid name because their culture wasn't as centralized as some of us imagine. There was a sort of loose control exerted by the big bosses around White Gold Tower, but each Ayleid settlement was its own city-state. I think it's plausible that the name Aka-tosh, which apparently means "Dragon Dragon" or "Dragon King" depending on who you ask, was a name at least some of them used, hence the stipulation Alessia had to become "High Priestess of Akatosh." I doubt the concept meant the same thing to the Aldmeri that it did to the Nords, but the name itself could be a common element.

So Akatosh was just another name for Auri-el? I don't know. From all accounts I've seen, Akatosh and Auri-el are completely different in regards to their views on men and Lorkhan. Even in Skyrim, Auri-el remains the preferred term among the snow elves, bosmer, and altmer, while Akatosh seems mostly worshipped/recognized by men and dragons.

If Akatosh was really just a regional name for Auri-el used by the Ayelids, then their Akatosh is much different than the Akatosh of men and dragons. I would wager that when the Ayelids referred to 'Akatosh', they meant something entirely different then Miraak.

I don't think their perception of him was as radically different as some assume. Some sources indicate that the Amulet of Kings predates Alessia, and that there was a covenant of sorts between the Time Dragon and the Ayleids, which was handed over to the Nedes later. Whether he's an Elven god or a Human one the common thread is that he represents immortality, everlasting legitimacy and the rule of righteous law. That's the common thread. I also don't think the Ayleids' perception of Nirn is as strictly negative as their Aldmeri cousins back in Summerset. It's implied they culturally evolved away from those beliefs.

And a quick side note, does anyone know how Miraak determined he was a dragonborn and that he was connected to Akatosh? Are we assuming that he figured it out on his own or with the help of Mora?

The Prophecy, I'd imagine. Hakon One-Eye knew about it, which is why he came to Miraak and asked him to kill Alduin. Miraak refused. In order for Hakon to ask, Hakon must have read the Prophecy of the Dragonborn. This is possibly why he's partially blinded, but that's just my conjecture. The three Tongues of Paarthurnax seemed very intimate with ancient knowledge of this type. Paarthurnax himself states "Your Prophecy came from an Elder Scroll." Miraak chose to abandon his destiny, which is the right mortals have but gods can't comprehend. Thus, much like the failed Nerevarines, he was not the one. And yet, the Prophecy existed. It would eventually be fulfilled much later.

[Br3admax]

Of course your source could also be using the most common name for the same reason as the dragons. It's the most commonly used name across Tamriel. I'm also pretty sure the Ayleids used Auri-El, not Akatosh.

I'm of a mind that Akatosh was an Ayleid name for Auri-El. Not the Ayleid name. I don't think there's such a thing as the Ayleid name because their culture wasn't as centralized as some of us imagine. There was a sort of loose control exerted by the big bosses around White Gold Tower, but each Ayleid settlement was its own city-state. I think it's plausible that the name Aka-tosh, which apparently means "Dragon Dragon" or "Dragon King" depending on who you ask, was a name at least some of them used, hence the stipulation Alessia had to become "High Priestess of Akatosh." I doubt the concept meant the same thing to the Aldmeri that it did to the Nords, but the name itself could be a common element.

I doubt that the name Akatosh, which hardly sounds like anything else from their language is a name they came up with. I've just seen absolutely nothing that suggests the Ayleids revered this name anywhere. There's plenty of statements that say that almost all Aldmeri called him Auriel or Auri-El, but I've seen nothing that says they called him Akatosh. Even in Monomyth, Shezarr's Song, it's never presented that the Akatosh is is treated as anything more than a God of Man.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I provided a specific line calling Akatosh an Aldmeri god. It's possible this is a mistake or an inconsistency, but we can examine the evidence and eliminate other possibilities.

1 - He's not a Nedic god, because their religion and culture was erased. They adopted Elven gods long ago. They were forced to do so.

2 -He's not a Nordic god. They considered him an enemy, and a blasphemous idea. There's really no other option for placing him rather than saying he's an Ayleid entity.

So who else does that leave but Ayleids? Through nothing more than simple elimination they're the likely candidates.

[Minor Edits]

Saying it came from the Ayleids only begs the question of where they got it from.

The name could have an origin in the dragon language, if it were a phonetic corruption of the protonymic. Based the few precious words and phrases Bethesda deigned to give us in Skyrim, I imagine a very, very rough translation would be something like "Guide-Hunter-Time". "Time" is apparently "Tiid" in the dragon language, but "Tosh", or whatever the original syllable was, could have that same basic meaning with different connotations attached. Plenty of real-world languages do that.

If its origins are in the dragon language, that would mean the proto-Imperials would've most likely inherited the name from Nedes who left Atmoran society long before the dragon priests became malevolent. Labelling him "Akatosh" might've just been one the compromises which favored the humans when forming the pantheon. They won, after all.

Edit- Elven history with dragons is particularly unclear. We've gotten man's side of the story thus far, not theirs. But they seem to readily identify Auri-El with the Time Dragon in modern times. Ultimately, I would posit that Akatosh became the main name because it was the one both sides appreciated.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

The enslaved Nedes kept no traditions, though. This was absolutely not allowed. They weren't even allowed to keep their old tribal names, or even personal names as slaves of the Ayleids. Morihaus makes this abundantly clear in "The Adabal-a".

Is it really possible that ancient gods or snippets of their language could have survived over a thousand years of slavery? If you examine the closest real-world parallels of enslaved societies, you'll see that almost nothing of their original culture remains after just a few generations. They adopt the speech, customs and even religion of their masters. This is usually strongly encouraged, whereas their old identity is strongly discouraged. The Ayleids especially were cruel and fastidious masters. I can't imagine them letting anything outwardly Nede survive in their subjects for long, especially words or beliefs.

I have an answer to where the Ayleids would have encountered the word - original research. Not everything in their society was based off Aldmeri principles. Like the Chimer, they left partially because of growing sentiments of individuality and desire to change. They likely had their own astronomers, their own prophets, their own magical traditions. We know a little about all of the above, especially that some of them believed the Amulet was a divine gift and a symbol of their right to lord over Ald Cyrod. They had their own names for other deities, too. "Zenithar" and "Kynareth" are not Nordic gods, after all. Nor are they names used in the Summersets. I'd say it's pretty likely that the Ayleidic perception of the Divine evolved over the centuries since they left the Summersets, and they no longer had the same perceptions or names for the Divines as their ancestors and cousins. Whether these names were revealed by prophets or numerology is a moot point - I believe the names definitely originated with the Ayleids, not the Aldmeri. Alessia prayed to Kynareth, after all, not the Nordic Kyne. She would have learned of this goddess in her bondage under her Elven masters, so Kynareth must have been an actively worshiped god of the Ayleids, in stark contrast to the Aldmeri Jephre of the Summersets. I think the Akatosh variation of Auriel is a similar cultural evolution.

[Minor Edits]

We're only getting the slaves' side of the story (which is itself a broken narrative), and it's only natural they would emphasize and possibly exaggerate the mistreatment they were subjected to. In that same breath in the Adabal-a, Morihaus mentions that they could keep names in secret, which indicates what the Ayleids allowed and what the Nedes got away with were two different things. And there are plenty of historical examples where slaves managed to preserve the essence of their society despite the influence of the masters' ideology.

"Original research" is still a non-answer. "Akatosh" had to come from somewhere, unless you're suggesting some Ayleid priest just made it up, and I highly doubt the trail dead-ends at the Ayleids because we know their origins. If the Ayleids didn't bring it from Summerset, then another origin is still required. If not Nedic, the name may have come from the Ehlnofey.

[legoless]

Also known as the old Smaug himself. 'Nuff said.

If there's so much confusion surrounding the origin of Akatosh as an individual aspect, then it simply hasn't been developed properly. Reading into it much more than that is straying into the realm of headcanon IMO.

[Minor Edits]

We're trying to have a serious discussion here, Lego. We can't be distracted by facts. :p

[Pilaf The Defiler]

You misunderstand me, Minor Edits. The term "prophet" was chosen precisely. Not "priest" or "scholar." A Prophet has things revealed to him or her directly. I'm thinking of beings like Maruhk, or Alessia herself, except of a more Elven tint. It stands to reason that such men and women appear occasionally in Tamrielic society. Veloth founded the Chimeri sect. He left the Summerset Isles because of prophecy he interpreted, which told him about the Good Daedra and Proper Living, etc.

We're never directly told that all of the splinter groups of Aldmeri had similar prophets, but that would be a perfectly logical reason for them splitting off and forming their own cultures. After all, there has to be some explanation as to why the Ayleid religion differs so radically from their Summerset cousins, especially with the casual inclusion of Daedra. I think Prophets are the missing link in this story. A Prophet wouldn't have to invent the name Akatosh. He or she could simply have it revealed to them through a vision or a Divine Voice of some sort, or even in an object of Prophecy like an Elder Scroll. This fits right in with the history and setting of Tamriel, since so many important things unfold in this manner. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it doesn't eventually turn out to be the Bethcanon answer when it's revealed.

[Woodhouse]

I like the prophet idea. Akatosh's existence being revealed to mortals from a god makes sense for Miraak, and I think it makes sense for the Ayelids/Nedes too

[Br3admax]

I just feel that something so important would be spoken about somewhere. Anywhere.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I just feel that something so important would be spoken about somewhere. Anywhere.

There are a surprising amount of gaps in the lore of all the races/provinces. Ayleids are an obscure race, despite their historical importance. They only appear in the ancient past, and as the occasional resurrected baddie or time-travel NPC, depending on the game you're playing.

There are things about all the major races that were discovered for the very first time in ESO, such as major events in Morrowind's history (the Brothers of Strife incident), so it stands to reason the Ayleids still have a ton of unexplored lore as well. Prophets or a single Prophet makes the most sense, as it's the reason most other splinter groups who left Summerset formed. The Falmer, Dwemer and Maormer may have interpreted scrolls or divine visions in different ways. As conservative and traditional as High Elven society and religion was, it takes something earth-shattering to move somebody away from that. Prophecy answers most of those questions and fills in most of those blanks. It's really what this series is all about.

[Minor Edits]

You misunderstand me, Minor Edits. The term "prophet" was chosen precisely. Not "priest" or "scholar." A Prophet has things revealed to him or her directly. I'm thinking of beings like Maruhk, or Alessia herself, except of a more Elven tint. It stands to reason that such men and women appear occasionally in Tamrielic society. Veloth founded the Chimeri sect. He left the Summerset Isles because of prophecy he interpreted, which told him about the Good Daedra and Proper Living, etc.

We're never directly told that all of the splinter groups of Aldmeri had similar prophets, but that would be a perfectly logical reason for them splitting off and forming their own cultures. After all, there has to be some explanation as to why the Ayleid religion differs so radically from their Summerset cousins, especially with the casual inclusion of Daedra. I think Prophets are the missing link in this story. A Prophet wouldn't have to invent the name Akatosh. He or she could simply have it revealed to them through a vision or a Divine Voice of some sort, or even in an object of Prophecy like an Elder Scroll. This fits right in with the history and setting of Tamriel, since so many important things unfold in this manner. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it doesn't eventually turn out to be the Bethcanon answer when it's revealed.

Thank you for clarifying that. I would find it a bit less satisfying from a storytelling point of view, but it's certainly plausible. It just would seem more logical to me, more eloquent, if the name of the dragon god of time was rooted in the dragon language.

[Emzi 43]

Guys, isn't Pelinal Whitestrake supposed to be from the future?(or an alternate timeline since he came back) Akatosh played a much bigger part after the Ayleids fell, it's possible that Whitestrake had knowledge that he brought with him about Ayleid worship, or maybe he knew about Akatosh himself.
Edit: What I mean is, wherever Pelinal came from, could be the source of the knowlege

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Pelinal appeared late in the Ayleid period. It wouldn't explain why the Heartland High Elves supposedly knew the name Akatosh before he came, and it certainly wouldn't explain how Miraak or early Atmorans knew it. I believe this knowledge must have came from on high, close to the source. An Elder Scroll, or divine intervention of some sort.