Is Skyrim too factioned and polarized?

[logansrun]

This is my basic question. From the outset, you seem to be forced into choosing a side, Hadvar or Ralof, representing Imperial or Stormcloak interests.

I’ll just try to keep this short. The path you choose would seem to limit your options in character creation if you know what’s coming since the only real choice you have is race and sex.

The obvious choices for Stormcloak supporters would seem to be limited to Nord (obviously), and maybe Breton or Redguard, and possibly Orc, but that’s about it for the non-human races.

I can’t really see any of the beast or mer races supporting them, or an Imperial.

I’d really like to play one of those races, but I can’t seem to figure out a legitimate justification for supporting the Stormcloaks even though I’m a diehard Stormcloak fan.

Ultimately, my own justification is that their apparent “racism” isn’t really as much about race as nationalism, tradition and tribalism, and the only thing I hate more than true racism is the corruption of the Empire, in its current state and under its current leadership.

The only other thing is that I have yet to figure out why the Nords distrust and oppress the beast races when it was the Dunmer that traditionally enslaved and oppressed them.

Maybe there’s a legitimate reason lore-wise that I’ve either forgotten or completely missed entirely.

[legoless]

Protip: join the Legion. Problem solved.

I did dislike the division caused by the civil war. Smaller, quest-specific choices are fun, but cutting off half a questline always feels pretty sucky to me. Same deal with Mania/Dementia, and Hlaalu/Redoran/Telvanni.

[Spark]

yeah, if you arent a nord, there's basically no reason to support the stormcloaks. Stormcloaks are completely nord-centric racists, pretty much.

You have to think about it like you arent a nord - what would you do if you were them? why?

[CBR JGWRR]

Roleplay gives a reason for any race to join whichever side; for example, an Altmeri or Bosmeri refugee might join the Stormcloaks in a long term move to strengthen Skyrim against the Thalmor, an Argonian or a Dunmer may be trying to improve living conditions by earning the Nords respect, an Imperial may be an ex-legionnaire who disagreed with the WGC, an Orc for a sense of purpose outside a Stronghold, a Forsworn (Breton) joining the Stormcloaks to secure the independence of the Reach in Stormcloak Skyrim, a Redguard might be a sellsword for hire, a Khajiit might have been in a trade-caravan and joined the Stormcloaks as a guardsman after their caravan was attacked by bandits.

Plenty of reasons why, just need imagination.

[legoless]

a Forsworn (Breton) joining the Stormcloaks to secure the independence of the Reach in Stormcloak Skyrim,

Except the Stormcloaks' appointed jarl is a scum-of-the-earth imperialist whose family kept Madanach in chains and manipulated the Forsworn for years. The Nords hate the Reachmen, and without the Empire's equalising power they don't have a hope.

[CBR JGWRR]

a Forsworn (Breton) joining the Stormcloaks to secure the independence of the Reach in Stormcloak Skyrim,

Except the Stormcloaks' appointed jarl is a scum-of-the-earth imperialist whose family kept Madanach in chains and manipulated the Forsworn for years. The Nords hate the Reachmen, and without the Empire's equalising power they don't have a hope.

Exactly why one Forsworn might decide to join the Stormcloaks and demonstrate Forsworn superiority directly to the nords, and try an enemy of my enemy approach to an independent Reach.

[Br3admax]

At the same time, the former Imperial Jarl had Forsworn children lining up at the chopping block. The Empire never supported them in anything but being savages. Hell, even Bretons hate the image the Reachman have passed on to them.

[logansrun]

Roleplay gives a reason for any race to join whichever side; for example, an Altmeri or Bosmeri refugee might join the Stormcloaks in a long term move to strengthen Skyrim against the Thalmor, an Argonian or a Dunmer may be trying to improve living conditions by earning the Nords respect, an Imperial may be an ex-legionnaire who disagreed with the WGC, an Orc for a sense of purpose outside a Stronghold, a Forsworn (Breton) joining the Stormcloaks to secure the independence of the Reach in Stormcloak Skyrim, a Redguard might be a sellsword for hire, a Khajiit might have been in a trade-caravan and joined the Stormcloaks as a guardsman after their caravan was attacked by bandits.

Plenty of reasons why, just need imagination.

Thanks for the suggestions and tips. Much appreciated. If only any of that actually translated into actual gameplay. The Argonian and Dunmer living conditions never actually improve unless you side with the Imperials, take Windhelm and defeat Ulfric, while at the same time, corruption spreads and living conditions worsen for several other hold capitols like Riften.

The rest are legit, but never give you any real sense of accomplishment, achievement or purpose other than a personal one. You can’t do anything outside the scripted storylines to actually affect the outcomes and you can only follow one of two or three narrow paths when in fact and depending on race, I can think of several options and motivations that I can never pursue.

At the same time, the former Imperial Jarl had Forsworn children lining up at the chopping block. The Empire never supported them in anything but being savages. Hell, even Bretons hate the image the Reachman have passed on to them.

Actually, my Bretons supported the Forsworn and that was really the biggest gripe I had with Ulfric. Back to the previous point, it would have been nice if you could do different things based on your race or as the Dragonborn, like oppose both Tullius and Ulfric, or use your title as Thane to sway Balgruuf’s decision on which side to support, at the very least, if not sway the decisions of the Jarls of any hold you could become Thane of, etc.

[CBR JGWRR]

Thanks for the suggestions and tips. Much appreciated. If only any of that actually translated into actual gameplay. The Argonian and Dunmer living conditions never actually improve unless you side with the Imperials, take Windhelm and defeat Ulfric, while at the same time, corruption spreads and living conditions worsen for several other hold capitols like Riften.

The rest are legit, but never give you any real sense of accomplishment, achievement or purpose other than a personal one. You can’t do anything outside the scripted storylines to actually affect the outcomes and you can only follow one of two or three narrow paths.

Well, as said, these are just examples, the first ideas for each race I had - more fitting ones exist if you think about it enough.

[Br3admax]

At the same time, the former Imperial Jarl had Forsworn children lining up at the chopping block. The Empire never supported them in anything but being savages. Hell, even Bretons hate the image the Reachman have passed on to them.

Actually, my Bretons supported the Forsworn and that was really the biggest gripe I had with Ulfric. Back to the previous point, it would have been nice if you could do different things based on your race or as the Dragonborn, like oppose both Tullius and Ulfric, or use your title as Thane to sway Balgruuf’s decision on which side to support, at the very least, if not sway the decisions of the Jarls of any hold you could become Thane of, etc.

I'm sorry, but how is your character's opinion a reflection of what Bretons as a whole feel? Despite how your character feels, most Bretons in fact do not like the Reachmen and have killed more, much, much, much, more, of them than the Nords have, because most of the Reach is actually in High Rock, and the Bretons kill them on a daily basis. Ulfric, also didn't kill nearly as many Reachman as the Imperial Jarl did when he came back into power. The Forsworn Conspiracy makes it abundantly clear that the Jarl actually committed, and his son continues to commit, most of the crimes listed as Ulfric's in the Madmen of the Reach and the Bear of Markarth. Using that as evidence is like using Nords Arise! as evidence. They're both incredibly biased sources.

[logansrun]

Granted, I’m no lore master, but aside from this getting off-topic, if you’re going to further derail the thread, would you care to cite sources in order to support your claims and contentions?

Stating that the way you perceive the events of quests or storylines that play out in-game in the form of dialogue, etc. proves in-game texts inaccurate is kinda like stating Star Trek disproves Star Wars.

[Br3admax]

How's it offtopic? We're talking about the polarization of Skyrim, and this is very much an Imperial/Stormcloak topic, which aren't exactly allowed, but I guess the mods are okay with this one or something changed while I was gone. Either way, I already gave my sources, but I can do it again. It's cool if you don't think they're reliable, but they're there, for what's that worth. If you want a source for the fact that Bretons don't like Reachman, there's pretty much every Breton in the Reach. They make sure to point out they aren't Reachman, but Bretons, as there is a difference. In ESO, they even consider themselves a different race entirely, which is accurate as well. If you want a source for how most of the Reach is in High Rock:



It's in the game Daggerfall. It's called the Western Reach, but this isn't the entire Reachman's claim to land either. They also lay claim to parts of Hammerfell.

And finally if you want the source that the Jarl is the actual cause for the Forsworn Rebellion and the killings, talk to Madanach and Braig. Talk to any of the prisoners really. No one likes Reachman.

[CBR JGWRR]

How's it offtopic? We're talking about the polarization of Skyrim, and this is very much an Imperial/Stormcloak topic, which aren't exactly allowed, but I guess the mods are okay with this one or something changed while I was gone.

Empire v Stormcloak threads are still banned, as all they cause is arguments and flame wars. As this isn't an Empire v Stormcloak thread, but has potential to end up as one, it is probably being watched.

[logansrun]

Cool, I was more curious than anything considering there’s practically no lore I’ve ever seen or heard that deals with Breton’s interactions with the “People of the Reach” outside of Markarth, the Reach itself or Skyrim (TESV).

To answer your question, no, I don’t think my PCs opinion is a reflection of the Breton race as a whole, but considering the fact that every race is hostile to the Forsworn and the Forsworn are equally hostile, I looked at it more like poor design.

Goes back to my previous that as a Breton why can’t you join the Forsworn? From what I understand, you actually can join Madanach’s little band, but the rest of the Reach remains hostile, and he’s supposed to be the King of the Forsworn.

Again, poor design, development and implementation. I don’t think that should be confused with actual Lore.

How I was concerned about it drifting off topic is that I was trying to stick with how a race could or would justify, let alone even consider joining a normally hostile faction.

Here’s a perfect example. I did try to play an Imperial Stormcloak once along the lines of CBRs suggestion thinking only of the interactions in Windhelm while joining up and when being questioned about my PC’s motives.

Q: “Why would you join the Stormclaoks?”
A: “Because Skyrim is home to more than just Nords.”

Or something to that effect, but the first time I walked into a Stormcloak camp and heard one of them exclaim, “The next Imperial I see is DEAD!” now please tell me why my PC wouldn’t do an abrupt about face and make a beeline or hightail it straight to the sanctuary and safety of Solitude and General Tullius?

[Br3admax]

Cool, I was more curious than anything considering there’s practically no lore I’ve ever seen or heard that deals with Breton’s interactions with the “People of the Reach” outside of Markarth, the Reach itself or Skyrim (TESV).

I'll admit that Skyrim is pretty bad with this, but ESO expands on this.

Q: “Why would you join the Stormclaoks?”
A: “Because Skyrim is home to more than just Nords.”

Another answer is, historically, Bretons are allies more with Nords than the Cyrodilics. Of course now they're very rich in matters of Imperial society so they are content staying in the Empire. You can't join the Reachman anymore than you can join the Dominion, though, because it would isolate you from the people you would need to finish the Main Quest, and logic no one from Cyrodiil would probably actually want to do either. But it's up to you to explain it.

Or something to that effect, but the first time I walked into a Stormcloak camp and heard one of them exclaim, “The next Imperial I see is DEAD!” now please tewll me why my PC wouldn’t do an abrupt about face and make a beeline or hightail it straight to the sanctuary and safety of Solitude and General Tullius?

Because they say the same thing about the Stormcloaks? "Can't wait to kill another of Ulfric's boys." Realise that when people say Imperial in game, they usually do not mean the race but the faction. Most of the Legion in Skyrim is actually composed of Nords, as the real Legion is at the border of the Dominion. Imperial, tbh, actually isn't a race anymore than Breton is a race. Cyrodilic is the language and race of the Heartlands. Read the Great War, they say Imperial blood is shed defending Hammerfell, "But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic ." Now tell me, is a Nord or Breton any less Imperial than your character was? They are humans of Nedic and Atmoran descent, and of this Empire, are they not?

[legoless]

Imperial, tbh, actually isn't a race anymore than Breton is a race. Cyrodilic is the language and race of the Heartlands. Read the Great War, they say Imperial blood is shed defending Hammerfell, "But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic ." Now tell me, is a Nord or Breton any less Imperial than your character was? They are humans of Nedic and Atmoran descent, and of this Empire, are they not?

This is actually a very interesting point. Even though the Cyrodilic race is presented in the games as a single unit, a strong distinction has always been made in lore between the Nordic Colovians and the more Nedic/Akaviri Nibenese. Similar to the various types of Breton mongrels, the Imperial race is more of a geopolitical thing than a bloodline. A hunter from Chorrol could be more closely related to a true-blooded Atmoran from Windhelm than a Nibenean duke.

[thegooseking]

There is an important point about character development, which is considering the character's sociology. Every character in any story (and every person in real life, for that matter) is influenced by their background, but that doesn't necessarily mean they automatically accept and internalise all of their society's values and positions. There are always some values they will accept, and some values they will reject.

Finding reasons for a character of a given race to support one side or the other is only difficult if you view race as prescriptive, and there's no real reason for it to be so. Nowhere in the lore does it say "all altmer are like this" or "all khajiit believe this". Quite the opposite, in fact. If you want your character to be the poster child for their race, then your options will be limited, but that's a choice you make about how your character relates to their race; it's not actually down to what race you choose.

I think if you're serious about role-playing (and you pretty much have to be to worry about your character's motivations for their choices), then you have to seriously consider who your character is as an individual, rather than a stock template.

And sometimes it's difficult. One of the great things about Skyrim is that, if you think about them even halfway hard, the choices aren't easy or obvious. That's what makes them interesting. But broad-stroked characters don't really fit well with that.

[logansrun]

A “poster child”? No, but I do want them to be true to their race regarding background, history, etc. To me it’s kinda like the same thing with joining the Companions. I have a really hard time imagining why any elf would join or support a faction whose sole purpose is to recover the fragmented remains of an ancient artifact specifically enchanted to slay elves, or the fact of that being Ysgrammor’s “claim to fame” as it were, and the Companions revere this bloody history of the wars between man and mer.

Another prime example would be the distinction between the reactions of Brelyna and Onmund about being on opposite sides of a shared cultural war when exploring Saarthal. In some cases, one is removed enough from the actual events while in other cases, not so much, as there’s still anger and animosity expressed, or at least trepidation. In this example, I found it strange that Brelyna was the one who seemed distant and removed considering the life expectancy of an elf would have put her closer to the actual events, generationally speaking, while Onmund with his human lifespan would have been the one more removed.

Of course, there’s always the aspect of how much cultural emphasis and importance is placed on the stories as they’re handed down from generation to generation, and how much impact they lose or retain in the process. It’s also not the first time that the much longer elven life expectancy has seemed to slip the minds of the developers when considering all this through the development and writing process of the dialogue. One prime example of that was of dialogue from Varel Morvayn in Oblivion.

“Been here thirty years, and I expect I'll last another ten or so. When I'm gone, gods willing, my apprentice, Enilroth, will tend the smithy.”

[Zephyr]

I have a really hard time imagining why any elf would join or support a faction whose sole purpose is to recover the fragmented remains of an ancient artifact specifically enchanted to slay elves, or the fact of that being Ysgrammor’s “claim to fame” as it were, and the Companions revere this bloody history of the wars between man and mer.

I'm no lore expert either, and haven't played Skyrim in a while, but there is the example of Henantier the Outsider, most prominently. Athis was accepted, and doesn't seem bothered to be the only elf in the group. Asking around about what it means to be a Companion makes it pretty clear that their purpose is not to just recover Wuuthrad and kill elves.

[logansrun]

Good points about Henantier and Athis, but reading through their history, even though the Companions set aside politics and avoided becoming embroiled in political disputes, much of their legacy was steeped in honor and tradition, which had mostly been lost. They still acted like petty mercenaries for hire. They didn’t fight wars, which was what their legacy was based on, and even if you ask about individual motivations, most are still directly tied to the reputation of being a Companion, however that’s perceived.

Nothing is said of Henantier’s motives or motivations.
Athis: "Fortune and glory, friend. Fortune and glory."

Ria: "Are you kidding? I've wanted to be with them since I was a little girl. Haven't you heard the stories of Kodlak and Skjor fighting off the hundred-and-one Orc berserkers? Skjor says it was more like forty, but he's just being modest. Where else would I want to be but here? Learning with them, fighting at their sides"

Torvar: "A man of my station has many debts. I'm not much use at labor or learning, but I can throw a punch with the best of 'em."

Of the Circle
Kodlak Whitemane: "Like most of our band, I found this family after losing my own. I traveled the length and breadth of this land, learning all I could of the sword and the axe. I was just a boy, but I had the fire of a man in my heart. Eventually, my body caught up to my spirit. My predecessor, Askar, found me in Hammerfell. I was serving as bodyguard for some weak-necked lord out there. He brought me back here, and I realized... that I was actually coming home. I work to bring honor to this family, and to the family that I lost. For my mother, my father, and my grandfather. For all my Shield-Siblings. Family and honor. That's what it means to be one of us, boy/girl."

Aela: "My mother was a Companion. And her mother. And all the women in my family, back to Hrotti Blackblade. I stayed with my father in the woods until I was old enough for my Trial. We hunted everything there was to hunt. Good training. Ma didn't live long enough to see me join, but I fight to honor her and all my Shield-Sisters through time."

Skjor: "I learned the ways of the blade in the Great War. Nearly lost my life outside the Imperial City. I came home to Skyrim when it was all over. But I wasn't much good at anything other than fighting. Wandered around as a blade for hire. Was a damned good one, too. The money was good, and the women were good, and the drinks were good. But I was losing myself. My heart. I was lucky the Companions found me. Now there's a reason to be fighting. The honor of my brothers and sisters is worth more than coin. Of course, the money is still good. And the drinks!"

Vilkas: "To hear Farkas tell it, our father raised us here as happy pups, running around biting knees. I love my brother, but his brains are not his strong suit. We were brought here by Jergen. Whether he was our father or not, I don't care. He left to fight in the Great War and never came back. So he's not my problem anymore. We've been here as long as either of us can remember, though. So try to show some respect."

I guess the real thing that really bothers me is that Skyrim makes such a departure from the other series and you are forced to take sides.

In Morrowind, even if you played a Dunmer, you were still considered an outsider as an “Outlander”, which provided some isolation and insulation from the local politics.

Not to mention that for the most part, the local politics and conflicts between the outside Imperial factions and domestic Dunmer factions tied directly into the encroaching Blight crisis coming from Red Mountain.

In Oblivion, politics were a nonissue given the Oblivion Crisis. If anything, it served as a unifying event where petty politics seemed to have been set aside for mutual survival.

In Skyrim, it just seems they dropped the ball here. The return of Alduin, the World-Eater should have been on par with the Oblivion Crisis and its impending sense of doom along with what should have been a chilling effect on the politics involved in the Civil War.

You even get a sense of this from the citizenry when the subject of dragons comes up. Something Oblivion failed miserably at where the Oblivion Gates themselves were concerned.

Their biggest concern seemed to be the assassination of the Emperor, even when the Daedra were actively invading and trying to eat their faces, but in Skyrim even the pettiest political squabbles and struggles continue unabated.

More than that, you are actively drawn in and recruited, rather than being treated neutrally or even cautiously and with suspicion as with previous titles. I just have to ask myself what motivated such a shift in the role the PC was placed in? Was it simply for the drama?

[p-sto]

Maybe my memory of Morrowind is a little foggy because it's been almost ten years since I've played it but weren't a large number of joinable factions in open conflict with each other and in joining these factions you would take part in these conflicts in varying degrees. Joining the Empire or the Stormcloaks doesn't really mean much in terms of losing play since the quests are close to identical. In terms of meaning that your character is forced to play politics, I don't mind that so much. It seems to me to be a shame to be set in a such a politically complex world and not be able to make a choice about which politics your character supports. And if you have a character who doesn't care one way or the other it's easy enough to not be recruited by either.

If anything Skyrim doesn't feel restrictive enough for an individual playthrough. You can be the archmage of the College of Winterhold then join a group that reviles the use of magic in combat by swinging a sword once. After that if you please the only times your character has to touch a weapon again is to bring a sword to the blacksmith and to place Wuuthrad at the statue. Not saying that you shouldn't be able to join both the College and the Companions but these two factions are ones where lack of skill checks for progression seemed like a poor choice.

And joining the Legion after you kill the Emperor. Sure perhaps after everything is done the Empire lacks the evidence to make an accusation against a well known individual but the way the quests play out you would imagine there would at least be some suspicion left around your character.

A thane in every hold? Doesn't that position come with responsibilities? Sounds exhausting if you ask me. I suppose it could be considered a symbolic gesture towards someone who did great deeds for the holds but realistically in most cases this would be an appointment where they would usually expect you to have an ongoing interest in the hold and be prepared to offer service to the Jarl at a moment's notice.

[logansrun]

Okay, so maybe that wasn’t the best comparison since you aren’t actually “forced” to choose a side except in the intro between Hadvar and Ralof, and in Morrowind you’re effectively gang-pressed into the service of the Emperor and the Blades, but that focuses solely on the MQ and dealing with the primary threat, as well as exposing you to other factions like the Ashlanders as a neutral party, if not at least a potential ally.

Dunno, I’m having a hard time pinning down and putting a finger on exactly what it is. In Morrowind, you were treated like an outsider regardless. That wasn’t the case in Oblivion, but the politics weren’t the same either. Skyrim just feels a lot different than the previous titles I’ve played in the series. When creating a character in Skyrim, I’m forced to consider the politics I know I’m going to face.

That wasn’t the case on the first playthrough because I didn’t know a thing about how the Empire had changed or what the Stormcloaks represented, but knowing what I do now it certainly does come into play. If I had played an Argonian or Dunmer, I still might have been drawn to the Stormcloaks, at least until I made it to Windhelm for the first time. After that I would have had a hard time justifying joining them.

And I still don’t get what the Stormcloaks have against the Argonians since it was the Dunmer that enslaved them. If that part was ever explained in-game, again I either forgot or missed it entirely. Of course, now that I think about it, if I had played one of the beast races in Morrowind, I would have had a hard time justifying joining the Telvanni, which is perhaps one of the reasons I had little interest in playing either of the beast races.

[legoless]

A thane in every hold? Doesn't that position come with responsibilities? Sounds exhausting if you ask me. I suppose it could be considered a symbolic gesture towards someone who did great deeds for the holds but realistically in most cases this would be an appointment where they would usually expect you to have an ongoing interest in the hold and be prepared to offer service to the Jarl at a moment's notice.

This is the same situation present in Morrowind and Oblivion too. Realistically, a single individual becoming the leader of a number of major factions is ridiculous and overburdening, even if it's only a symbolic office. Just because you can become a thane of every city doesn't mean you should. Skyrim gives you the option, which I think is fine.

[p-sto]

Well the Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Companions and College of Winterhold are designed in a way that they could operate with an absentee leader so I usually don't feel bad about joining more than one, though nowadays I usually limit myself to two per character. Also I do find it vexing that membership of the College is forced by the main quest or by Dawnguard.

I see thaneship more comparable to joining the noble houses in Morrowind, which is exclusionary. I wouldn't suggest making thaneship as exclusive but the easily could have made a mechanic where once you become thane of two or three holds the Jarl says that they appreciate what you've done for them but considering your current commitments they're not inclined to give you a title.

Also looking at the wiki I recalled something I had completely forgotten about Morrowind. Joining factions changed people's attitudes towards your character. Something like being a member of the Thieves Guild or the Dark Brotherhood and the Companions would be a little cautious towards you. If you're a member of both then they won't even talk to you at all. I know some people would hate this but it seems to make a lot of sense to me.

[legoless]

That was in Oblivion as well, although usually only as a positive increase. Guards hate high-ranking Thieves Guild members and Dovyn Aren can attack you if you rise too high in the Mages Guild. Skyrim's disposition system was pretty limited in comparison.