How strong is the last dragonborn by lore?

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Strong enough to utterly disappear without a trace before the next game, as her predecessors from the other adventures did, I'm sure. Which is to say who knows? Her purpose fulfilled, the heroine departs. Adios. Farewell. Prophecy fulfilled. Way to go, hero. That's what power is in Elder Scrolls. Not who can lift the heaviest rock or who can beat who in a fight. Those are the wrong questions. They bore me. They should bore you, too. So says the Temple that is not a Tample.

[DragonoftheNorth]

Odahviing says at the end of the main quest that Alduin was unfit to lead the dragons but the LDB proved his worth and was now seen by the dragons as stronger than Alduin

[Dark Spark]

I totally get that your presence is the deciding factor in the battle and that Alduin couldn't be defeated by anyone other than the Dragonborn but to me the fact that facing him alone is never even an option at any point in time seems to imply that the Dragonborn is necessary but insufficient for vanquishing Alduin.

Much like Alduin could not accomplish his goals all alone.

Do you think taking down a world-dominating villain all by yourself is tough? Look at it from the bad guys' side: conquering a world is very much a team effort, too.

[Minor Edits]

Strong enough to utterly disappear without a trace before the next game, as her predecessors from the other adventures did, I'm sure. Which is to say who knows? Her purpose fulfilled, the heroine departs. Adios. Farewell. Prophecy fulfilled. Way to go, hero. That's what power is in Elder Scrolls. Not who can lift the heaviest rock or who can beat who in a fight. Those are the wrong questions. They bore me. They should bore you, too. So says the Temple that is not a Tample.

100% agree.

[p-sto]

I don't know, I kind of feel that who can lift the heaviest rock or who can beat who in fist fight have been pretty tangential to most of the conversation we've had. And I think it's natural to make such comparisons because saying the Dragonborn has a power of one million is pretty empty statement, the only way to really explore it is by comparing the Dragonborn to others and discussing what is and is not within the scope of the character to accomplish. As has been mentioned there are monumental feats attributed to this hero but there's still a sense that there's a lot that is beyond the limits of the Dragonborn. I've disagreed with most of the people here but I still think for the most part the quality of discourse has been quite good.

[CBR JGWRR]

The DB is a potential god - its how much potential will be used is the question.

[Imbalance]

It occurs to me that Dragonborn is the first main Elder Scrolls hero that was not effectively willed into existence by Uriel VII. Martin would have been the penultimate holder of that title, and his power was realized only briefly.

[Dark Spark]

Uriel VII has a lot to answer for. If he didn't set the Champion of Cyrodiil on his/her path, then we would never have gotten an Adoring Fan.

But he did. And we did. And the world became just a little more grating because of it.

[Emzi 43]

The Last Dragonborn was (Supposedly) able to resist Hermaus Mora's grasp, unlike Miraak. I say that because A) Neloth checks when you return to him for symptoms of their influence, and says your clear, and B) You still have independence after Dragonborn, I know that's part of the game but I think that the Dragonborn was still themselves at the end of Skyrim's story. So yeah, resisting a Daedra Lord, that's pretty good.

[Woodhouse]

Before the LDB, the only person we know of which the lore says was able to defeat Alduin was Shor. Five Songs says their ghosts went at it circa 1E 533, and Shor won.

However, Alduin's soul-snare in Sovngarde suggests to me that Shor's victory wasn't a complete one; that it was actually some sort of compromise. We know from Tsun (or someone in Sovngarde, at least), that Shor had ordered them to hold back, which suggests to me that he had to resort to making some sort of deal with Alduin. It seems that, like the ancient Tongues during the Dragon War, all Shor was really able to do was avert a complete disaster and kick the can down the road, not actually defeat Alduin. I think he may have had to buy the wyrm off by allowing him to place the soul-snare in the first place. That he had to sacrifice the souls of the dead for the sake of the living.

So, theoretically, the LDB was able to accomplish something that eluded even Shor. Which would make him pretty damn powerful.

Of course, there's always the matter of Shor's vacant throne in Sovngarde. It could be interpreted (or not interpreted) any number of ways, but it does reinforce for me the possibility that the distinction between Shor and the LDB is illusory.

Regardless, the LDB can construed to have god-like power.

The only problem I have with this is that, no matter how many times I run through the Skyrim main story, I can't figure out if we fought Alduin the World Eater, or an Alduin who had forsaken his world-eating duties and therefore lost a considerable amount of power. I imagine that if he was the former, than he would have looked a great deal more like Akatosh at the end of Oblivion than an oversized wyrm.

Regardless though, he was immensely powerful, probably just as powerful as all the other heroes who could only unlock their full potential through their madness. (I'm looking at you CoC and Pelinial).

[Woodhouse]

Odahviing says at the end of the main quest that Alduin was unfit to lead the dragons but the LDB proved his worth and was now seen by the dragons as stronger than Alduin

Considering his true purpose was to eat them, then I think it makes sense he was a poor leader.

[Br3admax]

*snip*

Definitely not Alduin the World-Eater, but then again the Dragonborn isn't at the peak of their power yet either.

[Redlotusmichele]

The only problem I have with this is that, no matter how many times I run through the Skyrim main story, I can't figure out if we fought Alduin the World Eater, or an Alduin who had forsaken his world-eating duties and therefore lost a considerable amount of power. I imagine that if he was the former, than he would have looked a great deal more like Akatosh at the end of Oblivion than an oversized wyrm.

Regardless though, he was immensely powerful, probably just as powerful as all the other heroes who could only unlock their full potential through their madness. (I'm looking at you CoC and Pelinial).

I think the last dragonborn is more powerful than Pelinal or at least on par. But unless its the world eater form Alduin that he defeats, I seriously dont see the LDB defeating CoC who is capable of defeating a daedric prince.

[BetaB17]

I seriously dont see the LDB defeating CoC who is capable of defeating a daedric prince.

Keep in mind, CoC was far from his standard self >_> by that time in the fight with Jygg he/she 'technically' became a Daedric Prince himself. It only makes sense, seeing as the best way to be on par with them is be one.. that or fight them on mundas where they are more vulnerable None the less, CoC prior to ascension is far from the strongest.. in just about every major conclusion he/she needed some form of assistance, be it a divine blessing, actual assistance from a divine, or a special soul gem. LDB only really needed such when confronting Alduin, and to a lesser extent when storming Harkon's castle.

The only thing that can make me doubt the LDB's superiority is exclusive equipment. Skill wise, we can only assume all are equal rather than take into account individual experience(i.e your build) Other than that, the Thu'um may not be the greatest.. but it certainly is better than nothing. The CoC was basically a normal mortal till ascendion, Nevar was little more than a reincarnation, and so many other past heroes were little more than mere mortals. In my personal opinion, I highly doubt the LDB has the best exclusive equipment the winner of that would be Nevar

Spoiler:

I wish to point something out I find quite ironic.. in the last 3 major installments, every single main villain was either a) weakened or b) defeated via an Achilles' heel. Looking at Morrowind, in order to kill Dagoth Ur, you had to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan. Or to how Almalexia was essential withered away by the time you strike her down. In Oblivion, Dagon could only be stopped by the aid of a Divine to be his bane, or in comparison with how CoC assumed the Madgod's throne in order to banish Jygg from his new found realm. Likewise Umaril could be easily killed with the use of the Relics, though in truth only the Blessing is necessary. In Skyrim >_> even if you exclude the Alduin's fall from his prime, he still could not be slain unless done so in Sovngarde while under the effects of Dragonrend. Similarly Harkon could be easily killed with Auriel's Bow, granted it's not necessary.. but then again so to isn't healing midbattle, having tons of minions, and running like a [&@%!].. I guess this true for alot of the series too, such as battlespire. It really does seem to belittle the hero, unable to defeat the superior foe without having something to even the odds.. though in all fairness some of the foes would be impossible to even harm if at their prime The only main villains I can think of that seem to stem from this would be Miraak, whom you could only face once you could meet him as equals(courtesy of Mora) or with Hircine.. in which.. well being Hircine <_< he out right says it's unfair unless he hunts you as but an aspect.. and we all know how he allows a chance for the prey to succeed, however small it may be.

[Imbalance]

"Each event is preceded by Prophecy. But without the hero, there is no Event." - Zurin Arctus, the Underking

[Redlotusmichele]

I seriously dont see the LDB defeating CoC who is capable of defeating a daedric prince.

Keep in mind, CoC was far from his standard self >_> by that time in the fight with Jygg he/she 'technically' became a Daedric Prince himself. It only makes sense, seeing as the best way to be on par with them is be one.. that or fight them on mundas where they are more vulnerable None the less, CoC prior to ascension is far from the strongest.. in just about every major conclusion he/she needed some form of assistance, be it a divine blessing, actual assistance from a divine, or a special soul gem. LDB only really needed such when confronting Alduin, and to a lesser extent when storming Harkon's castle.

The only thing that can make me doubt the LDB's superiority is exclusive equipment. Skill wise, we can only assume all are equal rather than take into account individual experience(i.e your build) Other than that, the Thu'um may not be the greatest.. but it certainly is better than nothing. The CoC was basically a normal mortal till ascendion, Nevar was little more than a reincarnation, and so many other past heroes were little more than mere mortals. In my personal opinion, I highly doubt the LDB has the best exclusive equipment the winner of that would be Nevar

Spoiler:

I wish to point something out I find quite ironic.. in the last 3 major installments, every single main villain was either a) weakened or b) defeated via an Achilles' heel. Looking at Morrowind, in order to kill Dagoth Ur, you had to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan. Or to how Almalexia was essential withered away by the time you strike her down. In Oblivion, Dagon could only be stopped by the aid of a Divine to be his bane, or in comparison with how CoC assumed the Madgod's throne in order to banish Jygg from his new found realm. Likewise Umaril could be easily killed with the use of the Relics, though in truth only the Blessing is necessary. In Skyrim >_> even if you exclude the Alduin's fall from his prime, he still could not be slain unless done so in Sovngarde while under the effects of Dragonrend. Similarly Harkon could be easily killed with Auriel's Bow, granted it's not necessary.. but then again so to isn't healing midbattle, having tons of minions, and running like a [&@%!].. I guess this true for alot of the series too, such as battlespire. It really does seem to belittle the hero, unable to defeat the superior foe without having something to even the odds.. though in all fairness some of the foes would be impossible to even harm if at their prime The only main villains I can think of that seem to stem from this would be Miraak, whom you could only face once you could meet him as equals(courtesy of Mora) or with Hircine.. in which.. well being Hircine <_< he out right says it's unfair unless he hunts you as but an aspect.. and we all know how he allows a chance for the prey to succeed, however small it may be.

If we judge the heroes' power by birth(main game story),CoC=mere mortal;Nerevarine=Incarnation of a very powerful mortal;the last dragon born=mortal with immortal soul(dragon soul). If we add in the DLCs, CoC(or should we call him sheogorath) is the clear cut winner. I agree with you that CoC was far from his standard self, by the time he become Sheo, CoC no longer exist. He is sheogorath now. Since we are comparing CoC ,not sheo, we should only use what CoC done prior to his ascension.

Prior to his ascension, CoC's accomplishment really dull when compare the other 2 heroes, I dont see his power matching nerevarine and dragonborn purely by main game. So imo, it would be the last dragonborn>=nerevarine>CoC (dragon soul+thu'um>incarnation of powerful chimer).

[Br3admax]

If we judge the heroes' power by birth(main game story),CoC=mere mortal;Nerevarine=Incarnation of a very powerful mortal;the last dragon born=mortal with immortal soul(dragon soul). If we add in the DLCs, CoC(or should we call him sheogorath) is the clear cut winner. I agree with you that CoC was far from his standard self, by the time he become Sheo, CoC no longer exist. He is sheogorath now. Since we are comparing CoC ,not sheo, we should only use what CoC done prior to his ascension.

Prior to his ascension, CoC's accomplishment really dull when compare the other 2 heroes, I dont see his power matching nerevarine and dragonborn purely by main game. So imo, it would be the last dragonborn>=nerevarine>CoC (dragon soul+thu'um>incarnation of powerful chimer).

Not really. If we judged the heroes by the power they had from birth, and the Nerevarine isn't the Nerevarine from birth, he(as Neloth calls them) "mantled" Nerevar, then they would all be just as powerful as each other. The Thu'um, while extremely powerful, isn't the true power of any hero, like that Arctus quote just posted says. Think beyond the flashiness of blowing stuff up by yelling. And the CoC mantling Sheogorath didn't stop the CoC from existing, and they weren't done becoming Sheogorath by the time they fought Jyggalag either. Finally, I think Daedric Princes are way overblown powerwise. They aren't as all powerful compared to the Heroes as most people think.

[legoless]

CoC=mere mortal

CoC = reincarnation of Pelinal Whitestrake, demi-god and Champion of Men*

[Woodhouse]

Finally, I think Daedric Princes are way overblown powerwise. They aren't as all powerful compared to the Heroes as most people think.

Where do you get this from? When Dagon arrives in the Imperial City, Martin tells the CoC that he has no chance to defeat him, that in fact no mortal can. Hence Akatosh showing up to defeat Dagon, just as Sotha Sil and Alamexia had to a couple eras ago.

What instances are there of heroes taking on daedric princes and defeating them? The CoC, when fighting Jyygylag, had previously mantled the maddest hero ever to walk Nirn, so I think it would make sense for his mantling of Sheogorath to be quick. The only other example I can think of that kind of fits, is when Trinimac was roundly defeated by Boethia (and mephala?)

[BetaB17]

Um.. the hero of battlespire was able to finish off Dagon with nothing more than a poke.. I will agree, many of the gods in the series are largely overestimated.. then again by all means we are rarely given an example of their true strength >_> taken into regard that in-game tends to water down the strength of certain individuals or artifacts when compared to lore, even when you consider some things may have been over exaggerated in legend

Also, most heroes aren't your run of the mill types<_< they can be some of the strongest mages, fighters, or thieves to have existed. Coupled with the prophecy of the Elder Scrolls, a weak or strong hero can very much do the impossible, be it for better or worse.. for without a hero no event can take place

Speaking of strength and all that.. I think I believe there are a few mortals far stronger than LDB just look at Skyrim, the very game he/she is featured in. All those little kids, perfectly immune to any damage all the while tempting you via insults or belittlement, seems to me Skyrim was never in really danger from Alduin

[CBR JGWRR]

Gameplay/lore segregation.

[legoless]

Um.. the hero of battlespire was able to finish off Dagon with nothing more than a poke..

It was Daedric politics that banished Dagon to the Void. The hero was just a pawn of the Dremora, armed with a very specific sword unique in its power to do him harm. And let's not forget the armor impenetrable by oath, and the all-powerful secret name which actually finished him off.

[Br3admax]

Finally, I think Daedric Princes are way overblown powerwise. They aren't as all powerful compared to the Heroes as most people think.

Where do you get this from? When Dagon arrives in the Imperial City, Martin tells the CoC that he has no chance to defeat him, that in fact no mortal can. Hence Akatosh showing up to defeat Dagon, just as Sotha Sil and Alamexia had to a couple eras ago.

What instances are there of heroes taking on daedric princes and defeating them? The CoC, when fighting Jyygylag, had previously mantled the maddest hero ever to walk Nirn, so I think it would make sense for his mantling of Sheogorath to be quick. The only other example I can think of that kind of fits, is when Trinimac was roundly defeated by Boethia (and mephala?)

The CoC doesn't finish mantling Sheogorath in SI. As while the CoC definitely would not stand a chance against Dagon, I said that the power of the Daedra is well overblown. They are all bound by spheres and have limitations, and in general are not as we are to ants, is what I mean.

[The Scroll Keeper]

The dragon born is destined to survive thus he or she kills all he or she opposes so if he fought a vampire he'll defeat it and thus be stronger than that creature, so all he creatures that he faces are weaker than him.

[Trelares]

The CoC doesn't finish mantling Sheogorath in SI. As while the CoC definitely would not stand a chance against Dagon, I said that the power of the Daedra is well overblown. They are all bound by spheres and have limitations, and in general are not as we are to ants, is what I mean.

Jyggalag had not full control over his/Sheogoraths domain, so he wasn't at full power either. He just wanted to finish the Mad God to reclaim what was originally his, but the remaining might the former Sheogorath gave to the CoC together with the inherent own power of the hero were enough to defeat Jyggalag.

And what must be considered is that even Dagon was not nearly at full power as he invaded the Imperial City. Only in their own realm the full extent of their strength is available.

Although the Tribunal and Tiber Septim did show that even godhood can be achieved by mere mortal beings. So the races of Tamriel have a certain potential. Still those individuals only could do what the did by being linked to another higher being.