How strong is the last dragonborn by lore?

[Redlotusmichele]

I know he is pretty powerful for a mortal, but how strong is he when compare to other divine beings(I heard he is half as strong as a daedric prince) and other ES hero like nerevarine? Also is he consider one of the strongest in nirn?

[BetaB17]

Keep in mind.. Daedra and their sheer mass of power are things we simply underestimate >_> simply saying someone is half as strong as a prince is actually pretty vague at best. To those that normally believe such they typically specify by comparing him to Peryite seeing as he's/she's the weakest of the bunch. I personally don't believe him to be such, considering him/her no less than an ant to any prince who could easily kill him with the press of a thumb if they so wished.

On the otherhand, I wouldn't go so far to bundle him up with other mortals and heroes >_> he is to a degree a demi-god with powers that can bend the unbend-able to his will. Maybe he's not the strongest sword fighter, mage, or thief out there.. hell he shares the same boat with any of the previous heroes in that regard.. but most people aren't Dragonborn either. Nerevarine, wouldn't stand a chance. Champion of Cyrodiil, dead in a heart beat if he wasn't a babbling lunatic at the time. I mean look at the Greybeards, some of the strongest men to walk Nirn, and yet TLD is one of the few that can surpass them.. hell even learn all they have in a day rather than a lifetime...

In short, TLD is pretty damn powerful, simple as that.

[CBR JGWRR]

There was once a man like the Last Dragonborn, Shezzarine and dragonborn, gifted in power and mighty in wisdom. He conquered Tamriel, reshaped a province though his voice and though sheer force of will made the Eight into Nine. This guy, well, he had a boulder compared to the Dovahkiin's potential Mountain.

Unfortunately, Beth intend the last DB to be a mere slave to a Daedric Prince...

[legoless]

That line about "half as strong as a Daedric prince" is false. It comes from dialogue with Clavicus Vile: "As much as I hate to say it, you're almost as powerful as I am right now. But that's just because half of my power resides in that mutt, Barbas." Keep in mind that the last time Vile had some of his power stolen (Umbra), his realm nearly collapsed. Without Barbas, he can't even manifest away from one of his shrines. I think the line simply means to say that Vile's power is severely diminished, not that the Dragonborn has incredible power. Learn from Miraak, you can't outdo a Daedra.

[Br3admax]

That line about "half as strong as a Daedric prince" is false. It comes from dialogue with Clavicus Vile: "As much as I hate to say it, you're almost as powerful as I am right now. But that's just because half of my power resides in that mutt, Barbas." Keep in mind that the last time Vile had some of his power stolen (Umbra), his realm nearly collapsed. Without Barbas, he can't even manifest away from one of his shrines. I think the line simply means to say that Vile's power is severely diminished, not that the Dragonborn has incredible power. Learn from Miraak, you can't outdo a Daedra.

Except, Pelinal, who I'd consider pretty similar to the CoC, Nerevarine, or the LDB could literally obliterate massive areas at a whim and rampage through Cyrodiil like wave of destruction, and Hermaeus Mora couldn't or didn't kill Miraak on his own. He got a Dragonborn to do that for him. I also don't think comparing Miraak to the LDB is a good choice. Don't count them out as being godly powerful just yet.

[Redlotusmichele]

That line about "half as strong as a Daedric prince" is false. It comes from dialogue with Clavicus Vile: "As much as I hate to say it, you're almost as powerful as I am right now. But that's just because half of my power resides in that mutt, Barbas." Keep in mind that the last time Vile had some of his power stolen (Umbra), his realm nearly collapsed. Without Barbas, he can't even manifest away from one of his shrines. I think the line simply means to say that Vile's power is severely diminished, not that the Dragonborn has incredible power. Learn from Miraak, you can't outdo a Daedra.

Judging by that line, I wouldn't say its "false", Clavicus Vile has no reason to lie to the dragonborn and from the tone he seems serious about what he is saying. But maybe the half of power could actually means a lot? Eg: A 60% field goal percentage NBA player is consider one of the best in the league, while half of the accuracy, which is 30%, would be consider worst in NBA history. This is how I understand it, although its half, the difference is miles apart.

Since he is stronger than almost all mortals, how would TLD fare against the lesser gods like Tsun?

[legoless]

Except, Pelinal, who I'd consider pretty similar to the CoC, Nerevarine, or the LDB could literally obliterate massive areas at a whim and rampage through Cyrodiil like wave of destruction, and Hermaeus Mora couldn't or didn't kill Miraak on his own. He got a Dragonborn to do that for him. I also don't think comparing Miraak to the LDB is a good choice. Don't count them out as being godly powerful just yet.

Mora is the one who kills Miraak when it's evident that the Last Dragonborn is stronger.

[Br3admax]

He stabs him through the chest so you can claim his soul, otherwise Miraak still would have escaped. If Mora was able to handle Miraak on his own, he would have. Even the Daedric Prince of Fate is still bound by it.

[legoless]

Open to as much interpretation as the Vile quote.

[Minor Edits]

Before the LDB, the only person we know of which the lore says was able to defeat Alduin was Shor. Five Songs says their ghosts went at it circa 1E 533, and Shor won.

However, Alduin's soul-snare in Sovngarde suggests to me that Shor's victory wasn't a complete one; that it was actually some sort of compromise. We know from Tsun (or someone in Sovngarde, at least), that Shor had ordered them to hold back, which suggests to me that he had to resort to making some sort of deal with Alduin. It seems that, like the ancient Tongues during the Dragon War, all Shor was really able to do was avert a complete disaster and kick the can down the road, not actually defeat Alduin. I think he may have had to buy the wyrm off by allowing him to place the soul-snare in the first place. That he had to sacrifice the souls of the dead for the sake of the living.

So, theoretically, the LDB was able to accomplish something that eluded even Shor. Which would make him pretty damn powerful.

Of course, there's always the matter of Shor's vacant throne in Sovngarde. It could be interpreted (or not interpreted) any number of ways, but it does reinforce for me the possibility that the distinction between Shor and the LDB is illusory.

Regardless, the LDB can construed to have god-like power.

[p-sto]

Although you could take into consideration the fact that the Last Dragonborn never actually faces Alduin alone. Not sure how much anyone wants to read into that. Neither of the fights are terribly hard but to me it seems to imply that the might of the Dragonborn alone isn't enough to overwhelm Alduin.

Also I was wondering if there's any basis in the lore to Beta's assertion that the Dragonborn is superior to the Nerevarine. Doesn't really seem proper to me to label the Nerevarine as a mere mortal or possibly a mortal at all. Then again being an immortal or a god may be less of a distinction in TES than it is in other mythologies and fictions.

[Br3admax]

Actually, all of the characters imply that you are the reason Alduin "dies," including Alduin himself, so I don't think the others are really a factor in the actual battle.

As for Beta's statement, he's not the only one who holds such beliefs, but I certainly don't agree with them. The Thu'um is the only thing that sets the LDB apart from these heroes. The Thu'um is not where I believe most of their true power comes from. I could explain further, but that goes into a territory of more theory than most people want to get into.

[p-sto]

I totally get that your presence is the deciding factor in the battle and that Alduin couldn't be defeated by anyone other than the Dragonborn but to me the fact that facing him alone is never even an option at any point in time seems to imply that the Dragonborn is necessary but insufficient for vanquishing Alduin.

[CBR JGWRR]

Nah, the others just came along for the historics.


We only see the DB at the start of their career, up to one year in, and just look at all they achieve in one year.

[p-sto]

Yeah, stopping the Eye of Magnus, defeating Harkon, defeating Alduin. Seems to me as much as the Dragonborn manages to save the world the largest accomplishment he or she can handle alone is defeating another Dragonborn.

[Br3admax]

They all say, "You have..." and so one. Alduin says, "You have grown strong." Paarthurnax was there, but even he says you defeated Alduin. The Tongues were there, but they also say that you defeated Alduin. The Tongues were needed to remove his snare, yes, but no one hides any delusion that it is anyone but you that did such things. Considering the fact that the Tongues weren't even able to hurt Alduin to a great extent let alone defeat him, and the Paarthurnax comes right out and says that you are the only one, I think the Dragonborn accomplished said things with their own skill. That speaks volumes to me. And yes, Serana was their to fight Harkon, but again it's claimed that you killed him. Someone being there means nothing when no one in game, they themselves included, say that they had that much of an impact.

[p-sto]

Like I said before given the presentation the Dragonborn comes off as necessary but not sufficient to me. There's no doubt in my mind that the Dragonborn is the critical factor that turns the tides of fate in favour of men and mer in all these conflicts but the consistency with which the character has someone by their side during these critical moments is hard for me to ignore. Possibly a result of resource limitations but the Nerevarine never had an army at his back when going to face Dagoth Ur (though I will grant you, lorewise Alduin is a much more formidable opponent, Harkon not so much though he was the tougher fight).

It could all come down to how the game was written but I have to say while the Dragonborn comes off as an unstoppable killing machine he or she never seems anywhere close to god like while playing with the possible exception being the fact that the Dragonborn managed to travel to Sovngarde and return to Nirn whole.

[Br3admax]

When it comes to in game events, I'm going to take in game opinions over the experiences of gameplay. And the Dragonborn has never had an army at their back for anything besides the Civil War. Going by your example, Martin didn't really defeat Mehrunes Dagon because the CoC just happened to be there and Martin had the entire Legion at his back. And the CoC certainly didn't seem god like, but there they were, being called a god. Our opinions mean absolutely nothing.

[p-sto]

The Dragonborn faced Harkon alone with Serana but needed the help of the Dawnguard to breach the castle. The fact that Serana suggests enlisting their help to me implies that she feels that Dragonborn couldn't handle such an undertaking alone. I managed to kill the bulk of the vampires there on my own but like you said the in game experience is less telling than how the story is scripted.

Edit: Also your counter argument seems a little facetious to me. I never played Oblivion but I imagine that the Imperial Legion fought off Mehrunes Dagon's hordes while Martin faced him with the CoC. The Dragonborn received direct help in facing Alduin. Additionally Paarthurnax himself opines that role of the Dragonborn is to bring balance to Alduin destructiveness. Never once is it implied that the Dragonborn is anything more than a tool of the gods.

Edit again: Additionally I'd really like for you to quote where I said the Dragonborn didn't defeat these individuals. What I said was that he or she couldn't defeat them alone.

[Br3admax]

The Dragonborn faced Harkon alone with Serana but needed the help of the Dawnguard to breach the castle. The fact that Serana suggests enlisting their help to me implies that she feels that Dragonborn couldn't handle such an undertaking alone. I managed to kill the bulk of the vampires there on my own but like you said the in game experience is less telling than how the story is scripted.

And at the same time, they trusted you to take on every vampire before that, read Elder Scrolls one after the other, the vampires trust you to solo the entire Dawnguard, with or without Serana. Point is, not really a good comparison.

Edit: Also your counter argument seems a little facetious to me. I never played Oblivion but I imagine that the Imperial Legion fought off Mehrunes Dagon's hordes while Martin faced him with the CoC. The Dragonborn received direct help in facing Alduin. Additionally Paarthurnax himself opines that role of the Dragonborn is to bring balance to Alduin destructiveness. Never once is it implied that the Dragonborn is anything more than a tool of the gods.

I'm not getting your point here. No one in game says the Dragonborn needed help to face Alduin, only to learn how. And as for Oblivion, the CoC, an "agent of the gods,"

Spoiler:

fought a Daedric Prince and his entire army alone.

PCs are pretty godly. There has never been a single "agent of the gods" that wasn't semi-divine or empowered by them to face their threats. This isn't really the right thread for that though, so I won't go into it.

Edit again: Additionally I'd really like for you to quote where I said the Dragonborn didn't defeat these individuals. What I said was that he or she couldn't defeat them alone.

I understand what you're saying; what I'm saying is, no one supports that the Dragonborn needed help to face anyone. The Dragonborn didn't need to face Alduin with Paarthurnax, Alduin pretty much ignores Paarthurnax the entire battle and belittles him, and they didn't need Serana to face Harkon, who didn't even fight the LDB alone. I'd also like to point out Miraak is a bigger threat than any insane Vampire Lord locked in his castle, especially when flanked by two dragons and entire Daedric Realm to fight through.

But don't get me wrong; I understand what you're saying. You don't think the LDB is "godly," which you'll never see looking at everything as presented to you in game. It's the parallels that you have to look for, which takes a lot more commitment to looking for than what's a definite.

[p-sto]

I get what you're saying Br3ad and as you said given the trend in TES games I honestly wouldn't be surprised if someone came with a link where a representative from Beth explicitly says the Dragonborn is a godlike being. That may full well have been their intention and will be what the lore reflects. Nonetheless if that was their intention I would say the delivery was beyond subtle it was lacking. I'm thinking of Morrowind not just because it's the only other TES game I know well but also because the Nerevarine was ostensibly a god and the contrast in how the character was treated seems quite stark to me. Not that I think they would have to include everything I'm going list below because then Skyrim would just be Morrowind 2 but honestly it's hard to see how they didn't choose to do certain things differently.

- As a godlike being you'd think that the presence of the Dragonborn would be a huge threat to the Thalmor position that Tiber Septim isn't a god. It would seem natural that they'd be actively hunting the Dragonborn to put end to someone that could upset their agenda. Instead if anything it seems that the Thalmor would like to make a potential ally of you if they can.

- In general NPCs may acknowledge you as great warrior, a hero and even a leader but really they don't seem to ever consider you much more than that (looking at the Blades and maybe the Greybeards to a lesser extent they seem to see you as much less).

- Alduin may acknowledge that you defeated him but does he ever actually say that you're an equal? (I honestly don't know the answer to this, it's been more than a year since I last completed the main quest)

- Paarthurnax does regard you as equal, at the end of things maybe even superior but he himself admits that his power is small in comparison to his brother. Additionally why would he even attempt to engage Alduin if he didn't think you needed the help. He claims that it hurt him greatly to do so and if he thought you could defeat Alduin without contest it would have been just as easy to stay out of the fight or even turn away from it.

- The Psijic Monks call your character worthy but given the tone of the entire CoW questline this really comes off as being worthy to live and lead the CoW. Almost everything about how they talk to you suggests that they view the Dragonborn as a lesser lifeform to be guided and tested.

- The Nerevarine struggled for recognition for pretty much the bulk of game. I'm not sure if I would have the Dragonborn follow the same path but at the same time there's a strong sense that you're accepted as Dragonborn pretty easily and the bulk of Skyrim doesn't really care. In Morrowind after fighting so hard just so people would admit you were the Nerevarine, the title seemed to mean so much more.

- Despite all the leadership the Dragonborn can show in the game the tone of Skyrim very much feels like the story of a servant in search of a master. True the Nerevarine wasn't beyond the machinations of the Daedra but it seemed ingrained in the character to be someone that was either in search of answers or in search of retribution. I played Morrowind for over a year and was so engaged in the world that I never actually got around to completing the main quest yet still that feeling was strong throughout the game.

I don't know, it seems plausible that the thu'um could give the Dragonborn enough edge that in fight he could best the Nerevarine but in terms of strength character and how the individual was viewed and influenced society, the Dragonborn looks petty in my eyes despite his accomplishments being arguably larger.

[Redlotusmichele]

p-sto's point do make sense, but I dont think they are the case during the Harkon and Alduin fight, because all your helpers are there for personal reasons. Serana is there because Harkon is her father. It wouldnt make sense if she just stand at the side while watching you butchering his father. Regarding Alduin's fight, the 3 heroes have grudge against Alduin, who is their nemesis. They would love to join the fight even if it is not necessary. Ultimately, the LDB is getting all the credit for the victories, not Serana and the 3 heroes.

Back to my point, having someone by LDB's side while he defeats an enemy doesnt means LDB is incapable of defeating the enemy. They are there for personal reasons and their presence just make the fight easier. Just like during the end of Oblivion when Methrune Dagon is destroying the imperial city. He have an army of lesser daedra on his side to help, does that mean Dagon is unable to destroy the city on his own? No, the lesser daedra are there to make his job easier.

[p-sto]

I've probably given this more attention than I should because I do think it is somewhat of a lesser point but I have two points to make on this. First you never have the opportunity to reject help in any of those cases. When you go into Morvath's Lair and there's the guy looking to avenge his wife you can take him aside and say, "I'm more experienced and stronger than you, I think it would be best if you stay out here." Your point on Serana is taken but tell me why turning the to the Dawnguard for help a necessity when you're siding with them? It seems completely unnecessary given the perceived power the Dragonborn has.

On Alduin I will say this. Morrowind was a clear contest between equals so it made a lot of sense for the character to be able face Dagoth Ur alone. In Oblivion Mehrunes Dagon is a being of near infinite power and unkillable so the narrative of invoking Akatosh made sense because having the CoC defeat him would have profound implications. Likewise I see Alduin as similar supreme being. He's not just a dragon, he's the Worldeater, second only Akatosh as a dragon. The reason I'm insisting the Dragonborn needed help, isn't due to my perception of weakness of the character but because the idea of taking on Alduin alone would in my eyes make the character overpowered beyond measure.

[CBR JGWRR]

because the idea of taking on Alduin alone would in my eyes make the character overpowered beyond measure.

Because they actually are overpowered beyond measure.

[p-sto]

Thing is the whole reason we're having this conversation is because TES is world of bounded strength. Daedra, Aedra, lesser deities they all have their place and they have their limitations. I don't know, perhaps I should know better by now but I still try to interpret TES in a manner that gives some sense of consistency.

And also this, not one direct mention of the Dragonborn

Tale of the Tongues

Alduin's wings, they did darken the sky. His roar fury's fire, and his scales sharpened scythes.
Men ran and they cowered, and they fought and they died. They burned and they bled as they issued their cries.
We need saviors to free us from Alduin's rage. Heroes on the field of this new war to wage.
And if Alduin wins, man is gone from this world. Lost in the shadow of the black wings unfurled.
But then came the Tongues on that terrible day. Steadfast as winter, they entered the fray.
And all heard the music of Alduin's doom. The sweet song of Skyrim, sky-shattering Thu'um.
And so the Tongues freed us from Alduin's rage. Gave the gift of the Voice, ushered in a new Age.
If Alduin is eternal, then eternity's done. For his story is over and the dragons are... gone.

Arguably about the first encounter with Alduin given the second last line but the last line leaves some indication that it may have been modified for the fourth era.