Aedra, Daedra, and what they really are

[Flame of Agnon]

All right, so after a while of thinking, I've come to a conclusion that I find obvious, but it has never been stated.

We have scene in multiple cases that Daedra, while bound to their avatar of choice, are not the avatar and instead are the realm/ plane of existence itself. For example, Sheogorath's avatar reverted to Jyggalag, but he was able to mantle another in his place. This allowed him to maintain his Jyggalag persona as his avatar was successfully severed from the realm. This shows that a daedra (at least a prince) is more of a plane of existence with a quality rather than an actual "figure" per se.

Now, the question of "okay, but why does this matter?" arises. Well, if you apply this to Aedra as well, the story of creation becomes, in my opinion, much more clear. In this manner of thinking, every Aedra essentially combined their spheres of existence and created the entire plane of Mundus. (we can assume this was a lot harder than just picking a place in the existing oblivion or aetherius and understand why it took so many) This explains decently well how each god's "personality and specialty" is coherent within mundus, but can be broken elsewhere such as oblivion where many of Mundus's laws are ignores wholeheartedly.

Now, if you indulge this idea (whether you agree or disagree), we can ask some questions that I think will be fun to discuss.

1. What exactly "mantles" an avatar? In SI it was determined to be a staff and the font of the isles. so, will just a simple symbol chosen by the realm do? or is there more to it?
2. What are the various reasons for Daedras' obsession over Mundus? Jealousy, lust for power?, or something more. (Kind of a very broad and varied question)
3. Lorkhan- his realm (Sovngarde) is still there and his avatar was killed, does this fall in line with the "Talos Replcement" theory.
4. Aedric avatars and remaining power in general.
5. anything else you guys can think of.

So with this said, let's discuss! *note* nothing here is being claimed as fact, just theory. Please no hate comments about how wrong this is.

[Mattbott]

2. I think the mundus represents a huge resource to them, entertainment, power, influence. Mortals from there can also summon creatures from oblivion without their will, so i think there's also a perceived threat too. And, knowing the daedra's personalities, perhaps the fact that if one of your peers/rivals (another daedric prince) is interested in the Mundus, that would peak your interest. The mundus might be the playing field of the daedra in their own power struggle - probably a far less damaging way to operate than invading each other's realm - which might be impossible anyway, if an oblivion realm IS the daedra (which i seem to remember Sheo telling me in SI tho dunno how literal he was being).. maybe places like the mundus are the only places in the universe where this contest can be played out - much like an online lobby is the only place we humans can play competitive computer games

[Minor Edits]

I think it has been explicitly stated in Shezarr's Song of the Monomyth and the Lunar Lorkhan that the et'Ada are equated with planes and planets.

Mantling is about following in a god's footsteps, thereby becoming one with them. How exactly this happens varies based upon a particular deity's path (and presumably on fine print in the divine compact of creation that mortals are not privy to. Regardless, if the planar theory holds water, the avatar's choice is the land's choice, and vice versa. And, theoretically, the land molds what it wants.

I've never heard of the Talos Replacement Theory. I'm assuming it's a fan made term for the somewhat nebulous link between Talos and Lorkhan.

Aedric avatars are impossible to predict or even satisfactorily define. At some level, every person in Tamriel might be considered an Aedric avatar.

As for #2, well, every kid where I grew up soon learned that you can't build a snow fort without some other kid coming along eventually to knock it down or take it.

[Flame of Agnon]

Yes, by Talos Replacement I did mean the "Talos replaced Lorkhan" thing. Sorry, I'm known to create my own terms for things.

[kertaw48]

Avatars are usually defined as either physical or spiritual manifestations of gods (e.g. Jon Hawker in Morrowind, or Pelinal at Alessia's deathbed). I don't think the word should be used lightly. Every person on Tamriel could be considered as having a part of Aedric essence, but they're not really avatars (unless you consider compassionate people as manifestations of Stendarr's will). The only avatars who are tricky to define are the Shezarrines.

Regarding the "Talos Replacement Theory", I don't really know the specifics of the connection between Talos and Lorkhan, but as far as practical religion goes, Talos kind of did replace Shezarr. Thalmor's reaction to the worship of Talos is a prime example of that.

I never really understood Sovngarde when it was introduced into the lore by Bloodmoon and I'm not sure my understanding improved. Either way, Nirn's moons were always considered Lorkhan's dying flesh, so I just assumed they were his plane (probably rent asunder when he was separated from his heart). Where does Sovrngarde fit into all of that?

[Minor Edits]

Keep mind, The Aedra are more than just the Divines. The people of Tamriel are the progeny of those who came before them. And gods, too, once walked as mortals (indeed, by the divine pact of creation, they ARE mortal). And what is a child but a physical and spiritual manifestation of oneself?

The link between Talos and Lorkhan is just presumed because they play similar roles as champions of man. Their roles in mortals' lives and beliefs are the same. And Lorkhan's status as a missing deceiver makes people on the lookout for him. Kirkbride commentary likely had something to do with it, as well.

Sovngarde is Florida. Essentially.

[kertaw48]

Keep mind, The Aedra are more than just the Divines. The people of Tamriel are the progeny of those who came before them. And gods, too, once walked as mortals (indeed, by the divine pact of creation, they ARE mortal). And what is a child but a physical and spiritual manifestation of oneself?

I know that, but avatars (as far as RL is concerned) imply that a divine being had some business on the mortal plane and created (through birth or actual creation) a physical vessel to enact his will on the mortal plane. I'm just saying that there's a difference in significance between the Nerevarine and Nerevar's children (had he any).

The link between Talos and Lorkhan is just presumed because they play similar roles as champions of man. Their roles in mortals' lives and beliefs are the same. And Lorkhan's status as a missing deceiver makes people on the lookout for him. Kirkbride commentary likely had something to do with it, as well.

Exactly what I meant. Divinity dictates religion, but religion does not dictate divinity.

Sovngarde is Florida. Essentially.

wat :B

This sounds so much like something MK would say that I'm not even going to ask. And I mean that in a good way. I think.