Opinions on Class Choices

[Tesknowitall]

While playing the beta the first time I especially noticed the class system... We aren't given many options... And to add to that, they're kind of odd in my perspective. Personally I think the game is laid out nicely; level up any skills, etc etc. But the class you choose determines the kind of abilities you use in combat, and also determines the title of your character.

We're given Templar, Dragonknight, Sorcerer, and Nightblade. Doesn't anyone else think they should have added to this? We don't have the typical warrior, or priest-like class... instead it sort of mixes them up into Templar or Dragonknight. I have a feeling there won't be much diversity in the world... Like every 4th person you see will have awesome dragon powers. (yes I'm aware you may train anything, but what if you don't want to be called a sorcerer? maybe you would rather be called a mage/wizard? {eg. warlock vs. mage})

I hate to say this, but I think it would have been better to take the WoW approach and add more solid classes (eg. Warrior, Hunter, etc.) Some people may not want the powers of a dragonknight but instead want solid hack and slash swordsman powers.

This is just my opinion and all comments are accepted. This is the place to share, rage, or praise other opinions! Fire away!

[Yaije]

I hate to say this, but I think it would have been better to take the WoW approach and add more solid classes (eg. Warrior, Hunter, etc.) Some people may not want the powers of a dragonknight but instead want solid hack and slash swordsman powers.

That's what the weapon skills are for.

As to more classes? I don't see a reason to go beyond basic melee and some kind of support, unless there's something really game changing about it.

Spoiler:

the difference between warlock and mage in wow is NOT game changing as of MoP

And the name bit is a bit pointless. Might as well get riled up over being a Champion in Oblivion or Dragonborn in Skyrim.

[Skrofler]

While playing the beta the first time I especially noticed the class system... We aren't given many options...

Because the options are both included within classes and added from without. Looking at previous TES games the same way you might say they give you no options because there are no classes. (I know there are presets, but no strict exclusive classes in the style of D&D or WoW)

We're given Templar, Dragonknight, Sorcerer, and Nightblade. Doesn't anyone else think they should have added to this? We don't have the typical warrior, or priest-like class... instead it sort of mixes them up into Templar or Dragonknight.

These classes are completely in line with the four classical RPG classes. They are more colourful and inclusive though. Rolling a priest, cleric or paladin you would go to the templar, pick and choose from its powers and armour options, and the end result would be different depending on what exact prestige class you had in mind.
Your traditional martial fighter is there too, just forgo most of the dragonknight class abilities and stick to weapon skills. You just have to finish the class building yourself. It's up to you!

[Deandra]

Rolling a priest, cleric or paladin you would go to the templar, pick and choose from its powers and armour options, and the end result would be different depending on what exact prestige class you had in mind.

Or you can pick any other class and heal very capably with a restoration staff.

With a bit of creativity, you can transform a DK into a powerful mage, build a sorcerer into a sneaky melee character with terrific dps and sustain, or generally mix things up in a way that suits your style. A class is a set of skills you have the option of putting points into. It is not a playstyle.

[Tesknowitall]

All of you are right, but we're missing something. The abilities. If you're a templar, your abilities are going to be all "smiting light magic" and whatnot. Doesn't anyone else want to see more diversity in this?

A better question may be: would you like to see more classes (with more class specific abilities) added to the game eventually.

Spoiler:

the difference between warlock and mage in wow is NOT game changing as of MoP

Yes... the difference is game changing... Mages can't summon, Warlocks can't teleport at will. (and many more nice abilities). Classes do matter. They have jobs, roles within groups. I know we can all love the fact that John the Sorcerer can run around in full daedric heavy armour swinging around his 2h battle axe not casting a single spell, but your class should put you on the path to how your character should be used most effectively. Abilitiessss are where it's atttttt.

[Deandra]

All of you are right, but we're missing something. The abilities. If you're a templar, your abilities are going to be all "smiting light magic" and whatnot.

Except that isn't true at all. I plan to make a templar who attacks with a bow. Sure, I'll use aedric spear abilities--they'll use up some of my magicka while my bow skills use stamina, allowing for a higher total DPS. But it'll hardly be my main attack.

[Tesknowitall]

All of you are right, but we're missing something. The abilities. If you're a templar, your abilities are going to be all "smiting light magic" and whatnot.

Except that isn't true at all. I plan to make a templar who attacks with a bow. Sure, I'll use aedric spear abilities--they'll use up some of my magicka while my bow skills use stamina, allowing for a higher total DPS. But it'll hardly be my main attack.

Ok in your case it seems reasonable. There are abilities there that suits your playstyle. Now if you were to be strictly a ranger, training that more than anything, and using it most often, would you not rather an ability set focused on ranger powers? What if you don't want to be "Ranger the Templar" or "Ranger the Nightblade"... You'd definetly not be ranger the dragonknight/sorcerer. Yeah, there will be a bow skill-line with cool attacks and such, but a class for a ranger would make you be a feared ranger. Sure you might lack the skill in melee combat. But you wouldn't need that if you were the best ranger in town!

Some people like to keep it simple and RP. The class system justtttt about cuts that off

[Deandra]

Actually, the fact that there isn't an ability set that is clearly the best for ranger types means I have more choices, not less. And while I didn't pick DK or sorc for my ranger, they would totally work too, but they would all feel different. A sorc would have a pet for tanking, allowing them to stand back and fire at enemies from range. And a DK has amazing crowd control skills that will similarly help them stay back from the action.

I don't see what any of this has to do with RPing. And I say that as somebody who adores RP.

[Yaije]

Yes... the difference is game changing... Mages can't summon, Warlocks can't teleport at will. (and many more nice abilities).

I'm guessing you haven't really thought to much about mirror image and water elemental. My main point was that both have the same effective tools that attempt to do the same thing. The way balance changes go into effect should show this as well as the pressence of a 1.5~2 min cooldown for dps burst present on every class. (some are hidden in different ways to be built up put have the same effective uptime)


Honestly, I'm thinking you're idea of class isn't the developers idea of class. And that the prospect of hard set balance that may be put in place within an MMO will negatively impact you're idea of gameplay.

It seems you are wishing for far more rigid a model of 'class' than what is present in ESO, somehting I vehemently detest after playing games like Rift, SWtoR, and WoW (yes Rift, while extremely open with it's class character building, is still overall more restrictive than ESO in it's options as I've seen so far).

[Witchery]

I kind of like the class system they have. Not ideal, but pretty broad. Most combat based characters can fall under Dragon Knight -- you can be anything from spellsword to warrior to barbarian, etc. Most magic characters fit under Sorceror. . . from scholar to wizard to summoner. Not a fan of the Nightblade name, as that's actually a sneaky mage in most TES games, but it seems to include most stealth-based character (assassins, thieves, rangers, and of course, nightblades). And then the Templar class, you can include more holy character like paladins, priests, witchhunters, healers, and knights.

Instead of having carbon copies of every other character with your class name, there seems to be a lot more flexibility and it gives you the opportunity to create unique character builds. The classes seem less like traditional classes and more like very general templates that can encompass several different kinds of character, depending of course on which aspects are explored. So if you're making a thief and you pick the "class" Nightblade, your character is still a thief -- you're free to only choose thief-like skills, armor and weapons. The Nightblade "class" you picked just gives you the ability to pick abilities that would fit well with your character.

I see where your coming from, though. To me, though, these are just "Combat, Magic, Stealth," and I guess Holy/Divine specializations rather than actual classes.

[Tesknowitall]

Yes... the difference is game changing... Mages can't summon, Warlocks can't teleport at will. (and many more nice abilities).

I'm guessing you haven't really thought to much about mirror image and water elemental.

I mean summon other players... I like Witchery's post. He/she basically lays out the class system. All of the classes (besides sorcerer) sound more like factions than classes. I guess I'm just more iffy about the names of the classes more than the abilities itself... A templar is like a crusader. Hell a templar is a crusader. If you're going to make a templar class, call it Paladin or something like that so that the person playing as a templar doesn't think his character is devoted to the lords above. And dragonknight.... What if you're more of a normal knight? Why throw in dragon there. So a quarter (or more by the looks of it) of players playing this game are going to have "dragonknight" floating around with their name. Might look better if it was "knight" or "warrior". Lol, its strange how these things get to me.

I also think this way, if I'm leader of the theives guild, champion of the fighters guild, archmage, best assassin ever, champ of the arena and emperor of Cyrodil, I will feel like it's so unrealistic that it takes away from the RPing feel. Someone has to agree with me on this at least. For some odd reason, i feel like the flexibility of the skills + the classes we've been given make me feel the same as I did when i was the best thing in the world in Oblivion.

I'm not totally sure if this is in effect, but ESO should at least put restrictions on skills not associated with the class (light restrictions) and buffs onto skills that do have something to do with your class. It's like Runescape with classes, although the classes don't mean anything besides some extra abilities you can use here and there.

[Witchery]

Yes... the difference is game changing... Mages can't summon, Warlocks can't teleport at will. (and many more nice abilities).

I'm guessing you haven't really thought to much about mirror image and water elemental.

I mean summon other players... I like Witchery's post. He/she basically lays out the class system. All of the classes (besides sorcerer) sound more like factions than classes. I guess I'm just more iffy about the names of the classes more than the abilities itself... A templar is like a crusader. Hell a templar is a crusader. If you're going to make a templar class, call it Paladin or something like that so that the person playing as a templar doesn't think his character is devoted to the lords above. And dragonknight.... What if you're more of a normal knight? Why throw in dragon there. So a quarter (or more by the looks of it) of players playing this game are going to have "dragonknight" floating around with their name. Might look better if it was "knight" or "warrior". Lol, its strange how these things get to me.

I also think this way, if I'm leader of the theives guild, champion of the fighters guild, archmage, best assassin ever, champ of the arena and emperor of Cyrodil, I will feel like it's so unrealistic that it takes away from the RPing feel. Someone has to agree with me on this at least. For some odd reason, i feel like the flexibility of the skills + the classes we've been given make me feel the same as I did when i was the best thing in the world in Oblivion.

I'm not totally sure if this is in effect, but ESO should at least put restrictions on skills not associated with the class (light restrictions) and buffs onto skills that do have something to do with your class. It's like Runescape with classes, although the classes don't mean anything besides some extra abilities you can use here and there.

I definitely agree with this -- and while this kind of "do everything power-gamer" playstyle is fine when you're in single player, some of us do want to RP. But I suppose that's just the nature of an MMO and one of the main reasons I probably won't be getting it. (unless one day it becomes FTP, then I won't be able to resist checking it out. But paying for something I probably won't enjoy? hm)

But I would like to add, in reference to your first paragraph -- like I said, I just don't think the classes in this MMO really do anything than provide a broad template for a bit more specialized characters. And just as a side note, I think templar/paladin and similar classes imply the same thing: that the character is devoted to some kind of god, generally the light ones. (in this case the Divines/a Divine) I think you're letting the titles of the "classes" (I call them that loosely) bother you too much. You can still be a normal knight or warrior, or a normal mage, or an assassin, or anything else. Perhaps think of these classes as a bit like birthsigns -- being born under the sign of Thief doesn't necessarily make the character a thief, but it does give them a boost with skills a thief would require. . . choosing the Nightblade class doesn't make the character a nightblade, but it gives them access to stealthy skills required for stealthier characters like assassins and thieves. At least that's how I'm viewing it. . . does that make sense, lol?

[Skrofler]

I know we can all love the fact that John the Sorcerer can run around in full daedric heavy armour swinging around his 2h battle axe not casting a single spell, but your class should put you on the path to how your character should be used most effectively.

This sums up your wishes and expectation nicely and I couldn't disagree more.
I'm really looking forward to seeing something different from the cookie cutter builds of past MMOs, and I really hope this system is set up for a new kind of thinking.

[Yaije]

The cookie cutter builds will still happen eventually. But at least you won't be looking at just one or 2 for a given character you make.

[AngryNord]

The melee classes in this game are just for show anyway... Given how extremely unbalanced the mobs in this game are, the only real chance of survival if you play solo, is as a tank mage with lots of AOE spells...

[Deandra]

AngryNord: Try playing in 3rd person perspective and watching what the mobs are doing, and react appropriately. Melee is definitely viable.

[AngryNord]

Problem isn't necessarily what they're DOING, but the combination of 1) mobs being extremely unbalanced (a "Level 5" mob is likely really at least Level 10), 2) mobs having insane agility, meaning it is impossible to outrun them, 3) mobs spawning unrealistically fast and way too frequently, meaning that to traverse an area of perhaps 100 m you'll encounter at least 6-7 mobs, meaning insta-death at least as many times, or having to do a huge detour to get to the "target" area safely. Given that this will apparently be even worse in the final release, the only really viable character for playing solo would be a tank mage With lots of AoE and a destruction staff, and even then soloing would likely be almost impossible...

[Deandra]

Do you understand dodging, blocking and interrupting? Regular monsters really shouldn't be that difficult for you to kill.

[Yaije]

Problem isn't necessarily what they're DOING, but the combination of 1) mobs being extremely unbalanced (a "Level 5" mob is likely really at least Level 10), 2) mobs having insane agility, meaning it is impossible to outrun them, 3) mobs spawning unrealistically fast and way too frequently, meaning that to traverse an area of perhaps 100 m you'll encounter at least 6-7 mobs, meaning insta-death at least as many times, or having to do a huge detour to get to the "target" area safely. Given that this will apparently be even worse in the final release, the only really viable character for playing solo would be a tank mage With lots of AoE and a destruction staff, and even then soloing would likely be almost impossible...

I'll be honest, I didn't experience any of what you're saying during my couple times playing as a single target melee dps 1-20~

Only one time did I hit a quest or location where mobs appeared to spawn too fast and would overwhelm me

Spoiler:

Auridon, near the northern end at an ayleid ruin. The task was to collect a series of artifacts (i think) from chests that apparently were unguarded (if you got to them first). Taking the quest item from a chest would spawn an elite ghost mob, that really was a step above everything else in the location and likely wasn't soloable for most people in the tight spaces around the chest (scamps everywhere to aggro on you). Thing was... there was apparently not limit on how many ghosts could be spawned by players and some people could simply flee from the ghost... so sneaky people would walk up, take the item and spawn another ghost (then gtfo) people who were bad at stealth got stuck with needing a group to clear the damned chests and instead of killing like 8 ghosts they had to wade through many and lots

And like deandra point out... blocking is a big deal (it unlocks opportunities to unload tricks to exploit and stun enemies for free hits.

[Tesknowitall]

Ok, different question. What do you think the best class will be in PVP, since PVP is pretty major in this game (emperor title). What race+class do you think is going to rule the battlefield. It happens in every game and vanilla ESO is not going to get around one class being better than another (until future updates of course).

[Deandra]

The emperor will be whoever has the least life and most dedication to playing PvP all day. Class won't even matter.

[Yaije]

Actually, Class will matter at the start.

Some effects in each class aren't exactly easy to replicate in other classes. so at first some tricks will be class exclusive and may or may not be really nasty in pvp.

edit:

At first I see nightblades and dragon knights being the apparent strong classes before people really start figuring things out. Sorcs and templars don't really seem to have anything that really jumps out (yet... Course I haven't looked at them into as great a detail)

edit: starting to imagine a heavy armor melee sorc riding into the fray with two minions, bound armaments and dropping mines as they periodically turn elemental or whatever to dodge ranged attacks.

Melee Sorc:
Heavy armor, 2h weapon with their primary bar loaded up with toggled passive effects, a regen on kill nuke and an active that would either be an AoE effect allies can exploit or a self cast speed boost/defensive action. NOT made for solo pvp really (lack of real defensive options and swaping weapons would turn off all toggles (unsummoning the minions).

[Deandra]

Oh, sorry, I misread that as "which class will become emperor."

My templar was pretty much healing full time in pvp, and most of the damage I did was with siege engines. It worked out extremely well.

[Tesknowitall]

How does an emperor get crowned anyways? Is it most kills in PVP? If that's true, wouldn't that mean the emperor will constantly be changing?

[Yaije]

so far as I'm aware. a faction must control specific keeps to crown an emperor (the middle ring around the imperial city I think). You retain the skill line indefinitely and are an emperor for the duration of a campaign (which last like 30 days or two weeks or something). I believe being emperor is determined by achieving a high number of the alliance points or whatever (which aren't earned only from kills) prior to the possible crowning event.

So basically by participating in a campaign in cyrodiil you are earning points toward possibly crowning or being crowned as emperor. I think the main thing a faction needs to worry about to crown their emperor is really gaining control of those central keeps and holding onto them.