Altmer: Victimization vs. Personification

[tatortodd22]

I have recently developed an appreciation for the Altmer on a personal level. I find that sometimes my values and attempts to constantly improve myself makes me come across as pompous, holier-than-thou, and elitist. I don't mean to portray this, but almost my grammar on the internet alone seems to carry that stigma.

I personally think that the high elves are being victimized, if just slightly, by the lore presented from Oblivion and Skyrim (my memory of Morrowind is less clear) by how often they are portrayed as rude, or villainous . But this could be entirely deliberate! Think about this ever popular statement that I've seen compared to TES gameplay many times before:

"You either die the hero, or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain."

The Altmer are an ancient race with an incredibly long life span. Their standards and expectations are much higher than those of other, younger races. They are able to achieve so much more in their lifetimes, and I think that the expectation that they will achieve these great things comes with the job. Have you ever been annoyed by someone who simply did not understand the world as well as you did? Have you ever become impatient with a slow-learner? In terms of Altmer society, they must experience that constantly when interacting with other races. "You guys are still trying to figure out that whole "mastering-painting" nonsense? We've been experimenting in transforming paintings into their own planes of reality to explore!" (#Altmergamedesigners)

The High Elves are named as such because they are perceived as pompous and elitist. This comes from their great pools of knowledge from long lives, their respect for formality and culture, and the "higher" callings of life such as intellectual pursuits and other subjects atop Maslow's big pyramid, like self-actualization. Due to their long lives and the values that their cultures cherish, it would be understandable to assume that the Altmer people are logistically more capable than the other races and cultures.

What I'm wondering, is if Bethesda is using all of this as a way to comment on intelligence, wisdom, maturity, etc. Is a certain degree of ignorance or innocence required to stay pure in this world? If we lived longer, would the quality of our lives degrade? Would our resilience to corruption or temptation fail eventually if subjected to the pressures of time and power? There are some high elves that have done good things in the Elder Scrolls series, but the ones that are highlighted have been highlighted in bloody nasty red meanness.

Perhaps this is an intentional artistic theme. Pursuing impossible ideals of perfection driving people to irrational, selfish, or counterproductive values. Ignorance being bliss and admitting that we should not know everything. Can you truly stay pure and innocent when subjected to the test of time and all the hardships the world can throw at you throughout your life? What do you guys think?

Spoiler:

EDIT: I am definitely a High Elf. I've reread and edited this post several times over, needlessly perfecting grammar and communicative imperfections... I will don my gold skin proudly!

[Will Zurmacht]

If, in a utopian fever dream, a human imagined a perfect human and a race of perfect humans, what qualities might they possess?

-effortless physical grace
-the ability to live forever
-immunity to pestilence and disease
-natural intelligence
-innate spiritual connection to the natural world and the magical energies flowing therein

Creatures sufficiently human-like to be recognizable and empathizable, but so obviously superior in all the right ways as to be alien. Every mundane human would want to be them; would likely become envious at the very thought of them. Fear would arise next as humans realized what such a race of 'perfect humans' would be capable of...

However, it turns out elves (Altmer included) aren't really perfect humans at all. Fantasy writers saddle elves with a familiar battery of individual and collective frailties to prevent them from becoming the obvious master race and dominating their respective settings. Elves usually display: xenophobia, isolationism, nativism, and tribalism; a slow reproductive cycle; overweening self-absorption to the point where elves become preoccupied with personal or provincial pursuits at the expense of "progress" (they cannot or at any rate refuse to adapt to outside developments); lack of a will to expand and dominate. Further, elves don't seem to have special mental safeguards in place to protect them from the rigors of centuries of experience: one heartbreak or crippling character flaw can crush them like it can a human, one faulty ritual or magical experiment can push them off the deep end, etc., a scenario that plays itself out repeatedly over the course of the series. Human brains usually become senile, deranged, or otherwise damaged in 60-70 years. What happens when you put a human-like brain in a shell that can live 1000 years?

Altmer are in a different position than elves in many other fantasy series, because they have been forced into more or less continual contact (and conflict) with other Tamrielic races for a long time. Fundamental theological divides (in a world where the commonality of magic, spirits, ghosts, etc. makes such considerations tangible and urgent) and recurring struggles for political dominance between those races with a taste and talent for mastery form the backdrop for TES history, if not the direct motivation for the actions of protagonists in the games themselves. Considering how involved the Altmer are in Tamrielic affairs, then, it's understandable how the previously mentioned fear, anxiety, awe, and envy humans display toward elves would be front and center in the series. These emotions were effectively played upon in Skyrim, Morrowind (with respect to the Dunmer), and Oblivion, and racio-cultural tension looks to be a centerpiece of TES:O as well.

Players can come at the continuum of racial diversity in TES from several angles. Do they want to enjoy the feeling of being a self-consciously superior superhuman high elf? Play a human and enjoy the baser emotions of ressentiment, envy, tall poppy syndrome, etc. with regard to Altmer? Meet in the middle with a half-elven Breton? Ignore the struggles of the higher races altogether, and enjoy the irrelevant, almost neanderthalic existence of an orc or reptilian humanoid in their natural habitats?

I don't think Bethesda developers are trying to promote one type of culture or lifestyle over another, or teach moral lessons with their implementation of the Altmer, which is a fairly standard implementation of the high elven fantasy trope in my opinion. They just put the options (including preconceived fantasy genre notions) on the table and let the player decide. Classic Beth.

[tatortodd22]

As a rather introspective individual, it is hard for me to imagine the Altmer people not acknowledging or being aware of these possible differences/faults. When, like you said, this typically isolated cultural archetype is forced to interact with other races and cultures so diverse from their own, you would think that with long life and wisdom they would be able to reflect on the question:

Is our way the best way?

The Thalmor, I suppose, personify just one of the extremist answers to this question. I would like to see more diversity in the Altmer philosophies expressed in the games. I think it would be more forgiving and more interesting while maintaining their "elitist" stigma. For instance, political parties in the Isles fighting over whether the Altmer race is a parent to the other races, and how responsible they are for them; using their experience to work with the other races as opposed to over the other races, accepting their worldview as unique, but not necessarily best, and that discussion and exchange with the younger races could expose their wisdom with fresh perspectives, combining the best of both worlds and valuing both equally.

I wanted to begin a guild for ESO at one point that represented that way of thinking. A party of high elves that value the other races as equally valuable perspectives on the world and trying to work together to unravel Nirn's mysteries, as opposed to exploring them alone on their narrow-sighted isolated culture in the Isles. I find it very realistic that a race this old would be able to acknowledge that their long lives may actually cause fault in their worldviews and values.

[Woodhouse]

Is our way the best way?

If the thalmor get their way, then it'll be the only way

[Minor Edits]

If the Thalmor get their way, it will be no one's way, if that makes any sense.

The way I see it, the ancient schism between mer and men was a legitimate conflict of interest. Periodically, in the Beginning Place, lesser spirits would be wiped out. The Ehlnofey who became Aldmeri ancestors believed that they could've survived this armageddon, that they all would have had a good chance of getting to what the Redguards would call the Far Shores, if they had not been tricked by Lorkhan. They couldn't grow, couldn't improve themselves in significant ways, but they could have continued existing. It was just the opposite for the ancestors of men. These were spirits so weak that they had no chance of surviving. With the mortal plane, Lorkhan gave them a chance. So we have the liberated and the subjugated, one group loving the mortal plane, and one group hating it. And both right.

Like all terrorist groups, the Thalmor have rejected the compromises society demands of their ideology. That doesn't make them wrong, though. If anything, they seem to be advocating the most honest, straightforward interpretation of Altmeri religious doctrine, which no doubt has made them attractive for many Altmer.

You seem to recognize that the Thalmor make the Altmer unappealing, hence you're hoping for less radical alternatives to be mixed into their culture. But my point is, even if that happens, those less-radical alternatives may also be less representative of the Altmer as a people, not more representative. Whenever the Altmer have been left to their own devices, the Thalmor have taken power.

The only real question is whether the underlying presumption of the Thalmor position is valid - that is, if they could bring about the end of the mortal plane, would they be in the same position as their ancestral et'Adans had been? At this point, would the spirit realm really offer them salvation, or would it be like a bird trying to fly into the sun?

I think it is the latter, and it is the height of arrogance to presume that the clock can be turned back. It's just evolution. Take oxygen. Oxygen is a poison that living organisms manipulated to use to their benefits, and now, we can't live without it. The ancestors of the Altmer may have hated the mortal realm, but at this point, virtually everyone would be wiped out if it was taken away.

Prepared mortals can mantle the gods. They can reach heaven by violence. They have the opportunity for self-improvement and growth. But if the mortal realm is pulled apart around them, they'll just do what mortals do - die. So, if that's really the end goal of the Thalmor, they're foolish. They're also as dangerous as Molag Bal or Mehrunes Dagon, because whether you're trying to shoot Tamriel into heaven or drag it down into hell, I think the result will be the same.

The stagnation of Altmeri culture is evident in their lack of progress. The silence speaks volumes. They lead such long lifespans, gather so much knowledge, and yet, where has it gotten them? Further, their stagnation is the natural trope in the sci-fi genre. Doctor Who, Stargate, Mass Effect, etc., etc. The older a culture becomes, the less creative it becomes. It essentially devolves into a society of narrow-minded thinking and intense ritual. ESO has served to reinforce that this is what has happened to the Altmeri society, as Ayrenn - The Unforeseen Queen speaks of the incredibly lengthy trainings and rituals they practice.

Long story short, no, I don't like the Altmer, because based on the lore and from what I've seen of them in the games, the aspersions lodged against them are generally accurate. Namely, they are pompous, arrogant, patronizing, their fundamental worldview is that of a sore loser, and their culture is stagnated. Not all individuals, but an inordinate amount of them seem to fit the description. All the evidence suggests that they have an intolerant culture. You can try to spin that however you'd like, call them misunderstood or whatever, but their general attitude triggers what I call my "**** you reflex". I don't hate them, per se, but they're nothing special, so when they act as if they are, it's eyeroll-inducing at several levels.

What I take away from the elves is that, first, individuals and the public must embrace the world as it is if it ever going to become any closer to what they wish it to be. Second, the state of society must be an accurate reflection of the state of nature, or else it turns into a quagmire.

[tatortodd22]

I suppose my appreciation for the Altmer culture is more an investment in potential than reputation, and making it into what I want it to be. This may be divergent from the vision of their place in the Elder Scrolls universe, but I think the interaction between the piece and the audience that I'm asserting with this is something I love about video games. It is a cooperative effort between creator and audience to create an ever changing but ever persistent work of art.

I really wish there was more variety in the portrayal of the Altmer. At the rate that they are represented, or possibly even designed, I cannot help but remember a quote by Daniel Tosh:

"It's not racist if it's always true!"

[Woodhouse]

They couldn't grow, couldn't improve themselves in significant ways, but they could have continued existing. It was just the opposite for the ancestors of men. These were spirits so weak that they had no chance of surviving. With the mortal plane, Lorkhan gave them a chance...

The only real question is whether the underlying presumption of the Thalmor position is valid - that is, if they could bring about the end of the mortal plane, would they be in the same position as their ancestral et'Adans had been? At this point, would the spirit realm really offer them salvation, or would it be like a bird trying to fly into the sun?

Remember that Lorkhan gave opportunity to the elves also. From what I understand of the reason that the gods made the mortal plane, at least from Lorkhan's perspective, was so they could achieve divinity or CHIM and surpass their creators. As we saw with Vivec, it is possible for the chimer/dunmer to achieve CHIM, and I'd wager that this holds true for the altmer also. So even though they are mad about no longer existing as free flowing spirits, they have the opportunity to become stronger than any of their oh so revered ancestors.
That seems to be the problem of the altmer. They are so obsessed with how powerful their ancestors are/were, that they don't even look around them and see that as mortals they can achieve more than ever was possible as et'ada. And minor edits, I like that idea of your's that the altmer might not even be able to get back to aetherius. If they're mortal enough for CHIM and vampirism, then they're probally to mortal for aetherius. After all, doesn't one of the elven myths tell of anu refusing to take back Auriel?

[Minor Edits]

Indeed, the elves got the same opportunity, but at a much greater opportunity cost, is my point. And many of them, it seems, weren't actually very trapped at all, it's just that they could exist for very long outside of the "perfect knowledge" of Aetherius. They were on the road, they just wanted a shortcut. And that shortcut, for them, proved utterly disastrous.

I've always loved that bit from the Heart of the World. Anu had already filled their place with something else... so many possibilities there.

[Crashen]

I would like to point out that there ARE several Altmer who are more sympathetic, even though the majority are dicks. You have Reldith, the Altmer farmer who lives in Rorikstead and has a redguard as an adoptive son, you have Runil, the former Aldmeri Dominion battlemage turned priest of Arkay, living in a Nord town (that has come to accept him.), Ulundil who sells horses in Windhelm and is a pretty nice guy, Curwe, a farmer's wife married to an Imperial, and so on and so forth. So really, there are some pretty friendly, or at least normal, salt-of-the-earth type Altmer around. You just aren't as likely to notice them, because they aren't trying to hit you with lightning for wearing an Amulet of Talos.

I think that was actually an interesting, and subtle move on Bethesda's part. There is a sort of social relativism going on, that we often fail to notice because we are the big adventuring hero who fights the villain. So while we are off butchering Thalmor Justiciers (Don't like Talos worship? Damn, you must hate me for being a daedra-worshipping Reachman then, huh?), we ignore the regular people going about their lives who probably don't care too much either way about the Grand Philosophies, and are more concerned with day to day matters. There are a number of parallels like that, that I've noticed hidden away in the small towns.

[rcbecker123]

I figure it like this the Thalmor are like Nazis in 1940 they control the power and want to keep it. They also see themselves as better. But this is just one aspect of the high elves, as you meet other high elves who are not thalmor such as the two store keepers in Solitude who just think they are better than others in town or Faralda at the mages guild who is not thalmor by her actions and an indication as she does not like the other high elf who is acting as advisor to the college. I get the feeling that she despises him. I assume she may not be the only one. But the issue arrises as to who's in power politicaly and that is the Thalmor govt. There may be some who are forced to serve because of fear but then others sign right up due to there way of thinking. Its the govt not always the people. Italy had the same issue but the people rebelled and the govt. and its leaders were stopped but this is were the ruthlessness of the govt comes into play and the Thalmor are very ruthless.

[Minor Edits]

Hey, I'm an American; I'd love to believe wholeheartedly in the idea that a government and the people they represent are distinct, and that one can't always be held responsible for the actions of the other. And sometimes that's true, in specific instances. But by and large, the general, hard truth of the matter is that people get the government they deserve.

[Woodhouse]

Minor Edits that is not a very critical view of the Thalmor or governmental oppression in general.
When our good old friend Malbron speaks of the wood elf purges, surely we would not claim that those unlucky bosmer deserve the treatment they receive from the Thalmor.
In fact, if we look at how the Thalmor rose to power, it would have never happened without the oblivion crisis and the invasion of Dagon. The altmer, dunmer, and khajiit surely did not deserve the existential threat brought on by the oblivion crisis, and they don't deserve the false consciousness preached by the Thalmor. They deserve every chance to reach apotheosis and/or CHIM as the rest of the mortals inhabiting Tamriel.

[Mattbott]

I agree with Minor edits in that if a system exists where the people can have their say and they don't exercise it, then they share responsibility for what sort of government they have. So go out and vote

The Thalmor definitely do play dirty, quite apart from purges, they aren't in any rush to explain to the superstitious Khaajit that they didnt bring the moons back - so they are happy to have subjects kept in place by inaccurate beliefs rather than citizens in their empire . Though you could be cynical and say that this is true to some extent of all governments even in a 21st century planet Earth democracy (lol i assume that the Thalmor didn't bring the moons back - perhaps they did!)

there is a line though and the Thalmor are definitely well beyond it, if the events of Skyrim are typical of their methods

[Minor Edits]

Minor Edits that is not a very critical view of the Thalmor or governmental oppression in general.
When our good old friend Malbron speaks of the wood elf purges, surely we would not claim that those unlucky bosmer deserve the treatment they receive from the Thalmor.
In fact, if we look at how the Thalmor rose to power, it would have never happened without the oblivion crisis and the invasion of Dagon. The altmer, dunmer, and khajiit surely did not deserve the existential threat brought on by the oblivion crisis, and they don't deserve the false consciousness preached by the Thalmor. They deserve every chance to reach apotheosis and/or CHIM as the rest of the mortals inhabiting Tamriel.

Really? I thought it was pretty critical. My point is, dictatorships don't arise from a vacuum. They usually act amidst thunderous applause. They typically rise to power by identifying a national shame and then stifling it with propaganda. People don't want to feel shame, so when someone offers them an out, they usually take it, closing their eyes and enjoying a blissful lack of conscience.

The whole of the Third Era was a bit of a dark age for many elves of Summerset. And especially during the Oblivion Crisis, they felt weak and scared, which is certainly shameful for such an ancient and prideful nation. The Thalmor offered them a way out of that shame, and they grasped it with both hands. Are we to ignore this truth?

I'm certainly not suggesting that some cultural culpability for allowing a corrupt regime to emerge or thrive can in turn justify genocide.

Never say never. History has demonstrated that the Thalmor are like a bad penny. They just needed the right opportunity to exploit.

[Woodhouse]

Yes but the Thalmor are also the dictators of the bosmer and khajiit, whom the Thalmor have shown to be less than tolerant towards. I guess I just took exception to your comment that "by and large, the general, hard truth of the matter is that people get the government they deserve", when in this case, the people being governed are also being ethnically cleansed from time to time.