The Simplification of the Series, when do you give up?

[Orz]

Assuming there is a line and you don't play these games simply because of the name, where is that line for you personally?

When they take away the extremely open world and make it more like Rage (which I don't think they'll ever do), when they make all of the quests randomly generated fetch quests (which they almost did in Skyrim), when they charge a monthly fee to play their game (as in ESO), when they make the lore too stupid, or when they add inappropriate content.

Even if the series gameplay does get even more dumbed down, I will still play it as long as there is a large, completely open world and plenty of good quests.

[KryptonianBlood]

Assuming there is a line and you don't play these games simply because of the name, where is that line for you personally?

When they take away the extremely open world and make it more like Rage (which I don't think they'll ever do), when they make all of the quests randomly generated fetch quests (which they almost did in Skyrim), when they charge a monthly fee to play their game (as in ESO), when they make the lore too stupid, or when they add inappropriate content.

Even if the series gameplay does get even more dumbed down, I will still play it as long as there is a large, completely open world and plenty of good quests.

I agree with most everything you said except inappropriate content. The ES series has its roots in "inappropriate" content. Daggerfall had certain enemies as well as npc's with visible breasts. In morrowind if you killed a khajitt or Argonian and took their armor, they were nude.

Mods fix these things to make the game more realistic now, but back in the day there was plenty of that sort of content. Have you read "The Real Barenziah"?

Adding "inappropriate content" would actually, in my opinion, be going back to the series roots. I Don't need naked Orc girls running about, but if they had the freedom to add it where appropriate, it would only increase their options when making interesting quests and content. The games have never felt appropriate for children in the first place.

[Thuro Pendragon]

I would stop playing if they added sex scenes like the witcher. That's about it. Nothing would really get me to stop playing.

[farore]

Yeah... I was extremely surprised the first time I played that game... O_O

[Thuro Pendragon]

How they avoided the AO rating I'll never know.

[OblivionDuruza]

As long as the game didn't force sex scenes upon you as the player then I don't see the mere fact that it includes them as a reason not to play it. That same principle applies to almost any potentially negative gameplay element, though. As long as you're not forced to fast travel, or to use a quest maker, there's no reason to complain about those particular elements (unless it's Skyrim and they remove any meaningful directions from the game, or it's Oblivion and they remove other means of fast travel). Still, if Bethesda adds elements to simplify the gameplay experience, I have no problem, as long as they don't start removing things.

[VelothiConservative]

ugh, please no sex! It's a fantasy game *cries*, I don't want to have orc-khajiit-argonian nightmares, nor do I want to accidentaly see such pictures when I google the game. Adding anything like that just takes the focus away from the adventuring, which is the core of the game. A game can't be everything, and preferably it should just stay out of things it can't be very good at. I didn't even like that one could get married in skyrim, because where does it end? Oh, let us build houses, let us get married, let us have kids, let us have sex.. no, no, no, no, just stop, none of that is adventuring, and adding it will just take resources away from the better parts of the game.

I'm all for realism but I think having naked characters is a bit too much. It's really just unneccessary and will most likely make more people annoyed than happy. releated: I'm glad that TES thus far hasn't done like Wow and made all females into super models with miniscule clothing. I mean, just google 'wow elf'. it's basically fantasy soft [&@%!]. If TES ever does -that- it might be too much.

[KryptonianBlood]

I would stop playing if they added sex scenes like the witcher. That's about it. Nothing would really get me to stop playing.

The Witcher sex scenes were simply that, sex scenes. If done more like Dragon Age: Origins though, it could add to the game.
I remember when the sex scene started with Morrigan, it didn't feel all hot and steamy, it was beautiful. Two people expressing their love for each other naturally. It added a real emotional impact, and didn't feel as if it was just there to sell copies.

If done like Dragon Age, it could add emotional impact to the game. There is a difference between sex and making love, and I would love to see another game demonstrate that like Dragon Age did. They could take a few cues from their relationship system as well, as it was the best I have experienced in any game as far as making me actually feel for the characters.

[Orz]

ugh, please no sex! It's a fantasy game *cries*, I don't want to have orc-khajiit-argonian nightmares, nor do I want to accidentaly see such pictures when I google the game. Adding anything like that just takes the focus away from the adventuring, which is the core of the game. A game can't be everything, and preferably it should just stay out of things it can't be very good at. I didn't even like that one could get married in skyrim, because where does it end? Oh, let us build houses, let us get married, let us have kids, let us have sex.. no, no, no, no, just stop, none of that is adventuring, and adding it will just take resources away from the better parts of the game.

I'm all for realism but I think having naked characters is a bit too much. It's really just unneccessary and will most likely make more people annoyed than happy. releated: I'm glad that TES thus far hasn't done like Wow and made all females into super models with miniscule clothing. I mean, just google 'wow elf'. it's basically fantasy soft [&@%!]. If TES ever does -that- it might be too much.

Exactly this. Even if TES had its roots in this kind of content, it doesn't make it right. I'm really glad that beth hasn't done stuff like that since morrowind.

[CreeperX]

The series already has many elements I dislike, like the ridiculous hand-holding and lack of real RPG elements. There's really no consequences, you can't fail quests and you can't make your character sound like you want since you are often forced to use certain dialogue options. Never been a fan of level scaling of the world either though at least it's a lot better in Skyrim than in Oblivion. Combat is lacking too in strategy, especially when using melee.

However, despite all this the game can be tremendous fun because of the freedom it offers. It just requires you to use your own imagination and I love doing that. There's also nothing mods can't fix/add. While it may lack in gameplay, it's just a package of fun which I can use as a creative tool as well. Rarely do games allow me to do that. I may twist it to a direction I want by creating restrictions from my imagination, or add some mods to change how the world works. I also generally like the lore and how they mostly avoid black&white thinking. Too bad though that I can't really make much choices based on this. (Except the civil war thing.)

So, I think taking away that freedom, would be the last straw. Many games do these other things better (like combat, choices, NPCs, etc) but TES has this huge gameworld you are allowed to tamper with however you like. Thus I keep coming back to it. So I guess making the hand-holding even worse plus changing it to a more linear and restricted world without customization options and modding tools, would make me give up because then the series would really have nothing over other games. I enjoy using it as a creative tool so if they took that away, then screw it. Also, if they ditch the lore and start portraying certain races/factions as one-dimensional evil etc, that would really annoy me. I really liked the discussion the Civil War caused so taking away these kind of things and changing them to just juvenile stereotypes without any room for debating... that would be really disappointing.

Anyways, TES is a different kind of game from all these "hardcore" RPGs and while there's many things I'm not a fan of I still enjoy it for what it is. It's the freedom and the scale that makes it stand out. If I want to play strategic and rewarding combat, I just go and play Dark Souls. If I want intrigue and choices with consequences, I go play Witcher.
If, however, TES lost the traits which made me enjoy it in the first place and which make it different from other games, then I would certainly lose interest.

[OblivionDuruza]

I have to say that I really agree with Creeper's sentiments on the matter. While the TES series might pale in comparison to classic CRPGs like those of BioWare as an RPG, it is such an attractive and successful franchise because it has stood as the greatest sandbox RPG of its day.

I think that really drives back to what I was saying the other day, that the only way Bethesda could really seriously go wrong with the series would be in removing elements, and limiting players in doing so, rather than in adding more.

[Sloady]

It would take a lot. The removal of attributes annoyed me a lot, and I still think the game suffers because of it, but removal of certain skills is fine so long as functionality is retained. My problem is that with mods, there's not a whole lot Bethesda can take away from me. So when do I stop playing TES? When they stop releasing the mod tools. It's that simple.

[Aranel]

Well, Bethesda would have to seriously alter quite a lot of core elements before I would probably call it quits (or atleast skip that game). I mean, my first game was Oblivion, then Skyrim, and then I eventually got Morrowind, after all - so there is a lot of things I like in those three titles.

That said Skyrim simplified a lot of things that I was not fond of, like streamlining the armor sets waaay too much (why do you have a chestpiece with the greaves with it?) and really reducing the ability to mix and match even more, and I really disliked how they got ride of magic crafting. I also think that some stuff, like the Radiant AI, was disappointing - the most it ever did was made it so you might not be going to the same cave/bandit lair/whatever and get the same item for a quest. Maybe. *sighs* And sadly, most of Skyrim's quests are centered around that formula.

However, that said, I am still very much optimistic for the series. I am a little bit worried, particularly with Skyrim's success that even more steamlining will come into future TES and Fallout sequels, but at the same time, I'm positive. Why? Because since Beth is bringing in so much more people, more people might be more apt to buy the next TES game and maybe switch to Bethesda's other franchise, Fallout. This might help them perfect and refine their "core" aspects of the game, and allow them to also add on and try other, more "risky" things.

Like what? Well, I'm really hoping future TES and Fallout games will take more stuff from Fallout: New Vegas, like making it so you have a "Hardcore" mode. For those of you who haven't played NV, hardcore mode basically a more challenging thing for combat. You have to eat, sleep, and drink, and you also gain health over a period of time - not right away. So I guess it'd be similar to playing Skyrim using some mods (like maybe Frostfall? I don't have gaming PC yet, so I can't compare it to Frostball from my own experience), and never really using health potions - mostly stuff that healed you over a period of time, like certain food items.

Within the last few games Beth has some out, I've noticed they've also taken a bit more of a serious effort for NPC characterization. Again, I'm not too sure how MUCH input Beth had with NV, but NV features a pretty good variety of followers you can get in the game. These followers can gain special "points" by traveling with you at different, key parts of the game. Boone can gain them by certain actions to take, particularly actions that go against Caesar's Legion, and Veronica can gain them by traveling to different settlements and seeing how people react to the technology there. Vanilla Skyrim didn't have very much of this deeper character stuff, but I think most people agree that some characters - Serana in particular - are defiantly a step into that direction. This is something I REALLY hope to see progress in Bethesda's games - afterall, characterization (and storyline) are what I love about BioWare's games. (Of those who are curious and want to know what I mean by that, I've played Jade Empire, Dragon Age, and Mass Effect; I also plan on getting Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 for the PC, and the old RPG games for the orignal xbox, too)

That said, I'm optimistic. I think there is a lot of features in Fallout that they were testing and will hopefully improve on, and the same thing goes for Skyrim - and pretty much vice virsa, since I can see there might be features that they might be planning on swapping between the two games. I know Fallout: NV has a lot of different character "events" you can use to lay down some stuff for your PC (like if you've been to certain cities, or if you might have fathered a child with some lady somewhere else, etc), far more than Fallout 3... which is mostly because Fallout 3, you had a lot of control on who your character is personally, but where they grew up and everything is predetermined once you start the game.
Fallout also has a karma rating, which effects how some people might see you (and your ability to access certain perks), and I would like to see this come back in TES 6; Oblivion had a very... rough system similar to it (infamy/renown) and I'd love to see that and individual stats come back into TES (intel/charisma/stength/etc), which was phased out in Oblivion, but it is in both of Beth's Fallout titles.

But back to the topic at hand, what would make me stop? Well, Beth is pretty bad with the "illusion of choice" and how much it holds your hand in Skyrim (*coughs* SO MANY ESSENTIAL NPCS, REALLY *coughs*), but it could be a /lot/ worse than it currently is. I guess for an "ultimate breaking point" it would be if they forced you into a role (ie: a certain race/gender), though taking away a lot of the sandbox abilities would be *very* close to that. Of course, at the end, I'd say exploration is the biggest, and most important, thing in TES. I mean, I love BioWare (which is very story driven), but neither company holds a candle to the other in their strong suits, and Bethesda (and, well, BioWare, for that matter) doesn't spread their resources too thin and neglect their forte in future games.

Oh, one thing that would REALLY tick me off (but maybe not make me swear off the series, but still...) is if they canonized stuff about previous PCs, like the Nerevarine, Champion of Cyrodiil, and the Dragonborn (as far as race/gender goes, in any case), I'll probably rage. A lot. :I
It's bad enough that it is apparently canon that the Nerevarine was male because of a one-off line from friggin' /Neloth/.

[OblivionDuruza]

It would take a lot. The removal of attributes annoyed me a lot, and I still think the game suffers because of it, but removal of certain skills is fine so long as functionality is retained.

I find that I feel much the same, but I get the feeling from ES:O that gameplay comes second to me after world-building when it comes to The Elder Scrolls. I think that I'd let Bethesda get away with a fair bit, if begrudgingly, if they were able to deliver another world like Morrowind, or one that met my expectations regarding the rest of the universe.

[Mattbott]

I am prepared to let them off with the attributes, so long as they can keep the depth in the game. They have earned a lot of good karma with me and it'll take more than that to put me off, though i miss factors like speed and luck, and hand to hand as a viable combat skill.. there's no way of playing a viable high level zero armour zero weapon martial artist in this game - which is a significant lack imo considering how much work they did on combat this time round

i dislike how they want to trump fable though and include all the adoption, marriage etc, cos it's not really TES and the actual responses from family members are pretty minimal. Adventuring, exploring, amassing wealth, creating a base of operations, developing tactics for companions and combat, these are things my TES hero is interested in during the duration of the game which tbh takes part in a time of deep crisis

I would rather my TES hero could establish a house in a community of friends who might call round or do mutual favours - or shared a drink in the pub - that is more relevant to the style of the game than the "peaceful mode" family legacy type rp which works so well in fable

[rcbecker123]

Im new to the game only started play a year ago. This is the only RPG game I have found were I could play the character and enjoyed the game. Graphics are good enough to enjoy and the character system is good enough, also I went back to try some of the older games and as dicussed poor graphics, lousy combat, and confusing character builders. By this I mean you can screw yourself.
Now then some missions can be weak and boring not all are like this. As far as nudity goes I could see some since it happens in the real world (pick up a National Geographic and see what real natives look like.) I think in other cases the barmaids dress is good enough.
I think there is a lot more that could have been done but was this do to game mechanics or being lazy I dont know. Building houses and marrage and real comunication with NPCs are good examples.
I for one also hate that sometimes the only choice is to be evil and kill someone to complete a mission, this is an issue. A good NPC would find a way around it like just grabing the staff of nightmares (forget what its called) and lock it in a chest to get the achievement. But i also think the company likes the evil side of Skyrim more than the good guy side as evident by the amount of missions and such in the game.
What would make me quit, is making what I have discussed weaker and worse.
1. Stupid Quest
2. Not open to choose what you want to do.
3. Everyone had even less personality.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I have yet to see tangible evidence of this simplification I hear about each and every time a new TES game comes out. I put as much time, though and care into my actions and my character in ESO as I did in Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind. It's differently complex, not less complex.

[rcbecker123]

Why does the game have to be hard? A good simple game will give you more new players and keep more old players than making a game more difficult when it doesnt need to be.

[Mattbott]

I have yet to see tangible evidence of this simplification I hear about each and every time a new TES game comes out. I put as much time, though and care into my actions and my character in ESO as I did in Skyrim, Oblivion and Morrowind. It's differently complex, not less complex.

this

it is inevitable that when a new game is differently complex then some players may have lost a feature they particularly liked in a previous edition, but i think the core of the game, adventure, exploration of Tamreil and freedom to make your unique character, are still there

i like that each region has its own rules and in game mechanics - like a different take on the game

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Yeah. Lest we forget - some people back on the old, OLD forums decried Morrowind as the death knell of the series because it was so "watered down" from Daggerfall. Apparently Impish, Backstabbing and Thaumaturgy were essential to their playstyles.

[OblivionDuruza]

That granted, because I totally agree, I did feel that Bethesda overstepped the mark a little when it removed Attributes, rather than fixing the broken level scaling system. Honestly, they could have learned from something like a Kindoms of Amalur style scaling range system, and brought back a more Morrowind-orientated tone to levelling.

That, and I feel that Bethesda did choose to interpret elements of the lore to fit the narrative they wanted to tell vis-à-vis Skyrim (specifically the Old Holds -> Stormcloaks and Thu'um -> Dragon Shouts, both of which I felt missed a level of potential depth).

[Mod-Loving Wood Elf]

The only remotely tangible thing that Bethesda could do to make me stop playing would be to drop the open-world gameplay and make it a purely linear game. Considering that Bethesda helped to invent the massive one-player sandbox adventure game, I don't think this will happen.

[Raynil dralas]

I would stop playing if they added sex scenes like the witcher. That's about it. Nothing would really get me to stop playing.

Everything can benefit from more sex scenes.

[likelolwhat]

I agree with a common theme here: the only thing I can think of that will make me put ES down is not being about to run far, far away from the MQ and do my own thing. (Related: being stuck with one premade character. Yuck. It's OK in spinoffs like Redguard, but not in a main series game!)

I never liked Morrowind, just couldn't take it seriously after Oblivion and Skyrim. Thus I care not for returning to the "good old days". Gimme a break. There will NEVER be another Morrowind -- and that's a good thing!

[Dark Spark]

I would stop playing if they added sex scenes like the witcher. That's about it. Nothing would really get me to stop playing.

Everything can benefit from more sex scenes.

You'd think that, but...

...I've begun "The Book of Love" questline for the Temple of Mara in Skyrim once again. While I was standing there watching the NPCs at the end of each 'adventure' I thought "If this is how they write romance, the guys at Bethsoft better stick to slaying monsters."

PS: "What good are fish if you can't share them with someone." Fastred should thank Mara that Klimmek doesn't set mudcrab traps for a living.