Will ES:O have an effect on lore?

[KryptonianBlood]

I have played a great many MMO in my day, before I realized the majority just are not my thing, and from my experience the plots and lore that are made up for these games are beyond substandard.
I fear if we accept new lore coming from the game as cannon, if its quality is similar to other games we may get A LOT of new lore, but most of it will be generic.

1. Should lore found in the mmo be considered cannon lore, or should we treat it like a alternate re-imagining of the history of tamriel?

2. Do you think Bethesda will consider the MMO cannon on non-cannon?



Just curious as to what others think. After all, this game could have a dramatic effect on our lore pages. This was a significant problem in the warcraft community when WoW came out, and I don't want to live through that again.

[Witchery]

I don't think it will change too much existing lore, but I would assume that the general plot will be integrated. Perhaps not every last aspect of the MMO, but the whole "three factions warring" thing probably will matter a bit. I don't know, really. It probably won't affect future games much, other than a reference here or there, and perhaps a book or two about it.

[KryptonianBlood]

I don't think it will change too much existing lore, but I would assume that the general plot will be integrated. Perhaps not every last aspect of the MMO, but the whole "three factions warring" thing probably will matter a bit. I don't know, really. It probably won't affect future games much, other than a reference here or there, and perhaps a book or two about it.

If Argonians teaming up with Dunmer becomes cannon I will cry. The Dunmer were still using them for slave labor during that time period. =(

[Witchery]

I don't think it will change too much existing lore, but I would assume that the general plot will be integrated. Perhaps not every last aspect of the MMO, but the whole "three factions warring" thing probably will matter a bit. I don't know, really. It probably won't affect future games much, other than a reference here or there, and perhaps a book or two about it.

If Argonians teaming up with Dunmer becomes cannon I will cry. The Dunmer were still using them for slave labor during that time period. =(

Yeah. . . some things are a bit stretched for the sake of game mechanics, but I don't think it will be disregarded entirely.

[Marelo]

cannon

BOOM!

As to the actual topic, yeah, it'll be taken seriously by the developers. I believe actual statements have also been given that Bethesda reserves the right to override anything Zenimax Online puts out, but honestly, I think fears about the lore are overblown in general. Stuff changes. Retcons happen, yes, even in the main series. The worlds will spin ever on, both ours and Nirn.

As far as the wiki goes, it just requires adding new stuff and pointing out odd contradictions if they occur, all meticulously cited.

When it gets right down to it, the notion of "canon" in fiction is given way too much importance. Stories are made up, and serve purposes other than self-consistency. It's not like a real history of an extant world. The official presentations of any fiction belong to the author(s), but your experiences with them are yours and yours alone. Take what you like. Forget what you don't, or fashion it anew into something you can like.

[Minor Edits]

Most of the lore from side games is insulated from the lore in the main games. They tell their own stories, with only the most obtuse of connections to the wider TES world. Battlespire, Redguard, Dawnstar, etc. I imagine ESO will follow on this pattern, the only difference being that there will be a lot more of it. And I'm sure that because of this, some of it will inevitably contradict established lore.

Don't get me wrong, too many people equate adding wrinkles to the lore with contradicting established lore. All too often, apparent inconsistencies can be easily reconciled with a little imagination. It is also not contradicting lore to give a different account - TES lore is full of such things. I'm talking about big things, significant errors which can be traced back to either incompetence or poor compromises made due to technical limitations. Entirely different landscapes. Abandoning entire facets of societies. Changing how entire cultures operate. Point being, I'll be happy if all they do is get a few names and dates wrong, because I'm inclined to think that this is going to be Oblivion all over again - biting off way, way more than they can chew, at the expense of quality lore treatment, and thus immersion. And it will be a shame because at least in Oblivion, all they could do was destroy Cyrodiil. Zenimax will have the opportunity to butcher a whole lot more than that.

[Dark Spark]

ESO is a prequel, no?

[Minor Edits]

^I don't think being a prequel diminishes ESO's capacity to irreconcilably contradict various things about the established TES world.

[Dark Spark]

And I'd think Arena smoothed over the sandbox in the end, so it's all okay to play as you will in the sandbox beforehand.

[KryptonianBlood]

Ah That is a good thought about Arena. No matter what they do in ES:O, we know the future of Tamriel, which is what we have experienced in the main ES games. I did read where an exec was doing a Q and A, and called descriptions of buildings in Summerset "poetry" and that building cannot be made with poetry, but with normal crafting materials. I hope that isn't Bethesda line of thought when they actually make a game in that location.

[Dark Spark]

Allow me to go all Star Wars on this...

We very well knew the dude named 'Anakin' was going to become a cyborg in black skull armor. The game is figuring out all those tiny little turns in the path between 'A' to 'V'.

What story would you have told?

My turn.

If I were telling the story, Queen Amidala's ship was sabotaged and captured en route to a crisis summit and the ship was diverted to a Rim World, a desolate planet called Tattooine. Obi-Wan Kenobi would lead a team of Jedi Knights on a rescue mission to that infernal dust-ball. Soon as they land, they fall into an ambush. Their ship takes heavy damage, most of the Knights are killed before suppressing their assailants, and Obi-Wan is up [&@%!] Creek without a paddle.

He and the surviving Knights trudge off to the nearest settlement, which happens to be a moisture farm owned by a fellow whose last name is Lars. The farm owner gives them aid. But his son, some bloke named Owen, tells them about a bush-pilot company called the "Skywalkers" who could supply dropships and even fix up their starship.

Obi-Wan is far more concerned about what these Skywalkers could to to save the Queen. Owen tells him about their best pilot, some overconfident rocket-jockey named Anakin. Owen knows all about this guy because he has a crush on Anakin's sister, Beru.

All that's doesn't matter to Obi-Wan: he needs flying machines for the rescue. So he sets out for Mos Espsa and hires the Skywalkers for the mission.

During the fight Obi-Wan sees firsthand why Anakin is their best pilot: he uses The Force, if only at an instinctual level.

They save the Queen, but at a price: the few survivors of the crime game retaliate by destroying the Skywalker Company in a suicide attack.

Anakin, with his livelihood and friends gone, accepts Obi-Wan's offer to join the Jedi Order, but only after Owen Lars accepts Beru's hand in marriage.

As both Anakin and Beru grew up as orphans without a surname, Anakin adopts 'Skywalker' as his, in memory of his old friends.

So then ends the first forty minutes on my Episode One. The rest of the film, do what you want with it...





That's how I connect myself to Episode Four. How did you do it? Watch and remember what George sold us?

[CBR JGWRR]

O/T - presumably you don't think much of Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith then.

OT - If ES:O does conflict with Bethesda's own, then ES:O is generally ignorable. There will be exceptions - being set in the Second Era, which is as well known and detailed as a sieve is a solid bowl of metal, it will add to what we know already.

Stuff like the aforementioned Dunmer/Nord/Argonian Alliance, well, is semi-justified by the famous phrase "the enemy of my enemy..."

[AKB]

First, of course the game is canon. Bethesda is publishing it, they paid for it, and they had oversight on its whole development. Additionally, it was specifically set in a time period which we knew virtually nothing about, and has little effect on the overall lore of the franchise as we already know how it ends. Molag Bal is defeated, but no one manages to secure the Ruby Throne for long. For the most part, everyone involved in the game dies about twenty years later when the Knahaten Flu handily eradicates the majority of living people. In the end, Tiber Septim ends the chaos of the Second Era about 400 years after the fact. The game is literally set in such a position that everyone involved, for the most part, will have died. Either way, their contributions to the world, while managing to save Tamriel (not exactly a unique achievement, by any stretch of the imagination), is not that overly important. ESO is just a minor little footnote in the bigger picture.

I will say that the formation of the Ebonheart Pact does have a decent explanation. The Pact seems to have formed last, after the creation of the Dominion and Covenant. Seeing as the other races have joined together, and that alone they would be readily conquered, their joining together makes some good sense. After all, the familiar enemy is a better friend than the new foe.

[KryptonianBlood]

I will say that the formation of the Ebonheart Pact does have a decent explanation. The Pact seems to have formed last, after the creation of the Dominion and Covenant. Seeing as the other races have joined together, and that alone they would be readily conquered, their joining together makes some good sense. After all, the familiar enemy is a better friend than the new foe.

Actually despite their differences, I would presume that the Dunmer would join with the dominion before they would with Argonians and Nords. They may dislike the Altmer, but they HATE the empire. Argonians in their eyes are mere animals, not even as intelligent as humans, who they also believe to be inferior. They don;t however believe the Altmer to be of inferior intellect, they just dislike their attitudes.

Two sides are fighting, their enemies the Empire, represented in the covenant versus their distant and unlikable cousins elves Bosmer and Altmer. But they decided, "N'wah lets start our own alliance with humans and beastfolk!"

This isn't some one week war we are talking about, as Argonians are dying to protect the Dunmer and Nords, they are at the same time being used as slaves in Morrowind. I think most Argonians would attempt to overthrow their leaders for treason had they been asked to give up their lives to help protect their slave-masters.

Sure you can explain it away with the same old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" simplification, but you can do that with even the most ridiculous plots, it doesn't get rid of the sour taste left in your mouth.

[AKB]

Alright, but that's the lore explanation we're given. If you don't want to accept that, I'm not going to bother trying to change your mind. I'm sure we'll learn more about the formation of the Pact once the game actually comes out.

I never understood the constant thought that the elves in Tamriel are all chummy with each other. That if there is going to be some giant war among the various nations, the Elves will for some reason band together. The elves hate each other. I have honestly heard people question why don't the Orcs join up with the Dominion, because they're elves. It's doesn't make sense in light of the most basic facts about the races, yet people cling to the concept of some kind elven brotherhood that simply is not real.

[CBR JGWRR]

Actually despite their differences, I would presume that the Dunmer would join with the dominion before they would with Argonians and Nords. They may dislike the Altmer, but they HATE the empire. Argonians in their eyes are mere animals, not even as intelligent as humans, who they also believe to be inferior. They don;t however believe the Altmer to be of inferior intellect, they just dislike their attitudes.

Two sides are fighting, their enemies the Empire, represented in the covenant versus their distant and unlikable cousins elves Bosmer and Altmer. But they decided, "N'wah lets start our own alliance with humans and beastfolk!"

This isn't some one week war we are talking about, as Argonians are dying to protect the Dunmer and Nords, they are at the same time being used as slaves in Morrowind. I think most Argonians would attempt to overthrow their leaders for treason had they been asked to give up their lives to help protect their slave-masters.

Sure you can explain it away with the same old "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" simplification, but you can do that with even the most ridiculous plots, it doesn't get rid of the sour taste left in your mouth.

At this point, there is no Empire. Reman left the show centuries ago, Tiber is likewise, centuries away.

Two, that sour taste is still there, very, very much apparent. It really is only the threat from Molag Bal and the other Alliances that keeps them together...

[OblivionDuruza]

I would have to say yes on both counts, quite frankly, because ZeniMax Online is both working directly with Bethesda on the lore front, and putting out lore that is both consistent with and complimentary to existing TES lore.

I would be disappointed if ES:O was not considered at least partially canon.

Also, to all the "Dunmer and Argonians can't be friends" people out there, I think you're forgetting that the Argonians don't think for themselves, they're basically a mix between the Borg Collective and Communist Russia as far as their servitude to the Hist-mind goes. If the Akaviri invasions and other alliances gave the Hist reason to see an alliance with the Dunmer as necessary to their continued survival and/or positioning so as to accrue further power, then the Argonians aren't going to be the ones to question that.

[Secret Magic User]

^What OD, CBR, and AKD said.

Reading this though:

Actually despite their differences, I would presume that the Dunmer would join with the dominion before they would with Argonians and Nords. They may dislike the Altmer, but they HATE the empire. Argonians in their eyes are mere animals, not even as intelligent as humans, who they also believe to be inferior. They don;t however believe the Altmer to be of inferior intellect, they just dislike their attitudes.

I have to say, the Dunmer (at that time Chimer) were at such odds with the Altmer, that they not only left the Summerset Isles/Alinor, but went to the opposite side of the continent to get away from them, even though it meant almost constant war with the Dwemer, Nords, or Argonians. You don't make that kind of migration just because you got into a tiff with your neighbors. They were so fundamentally different, that they had to be a continent apart to be (maybe) far enough away.

[Mattbott]

lore book possibility?

"in this era of Tamreil history, billions of mudcrabs were systematically slaughthered by the many heroes trying to make their way in the world, often used mercilessly as target practice or in other combat training"

I wouldn't worry too much about TESO messing with lore

a well placed elder scroll can erase or alter any shenanigans committed in a prequel. Argonians and Dunmer in the same club is a very strange idea, but it could work - Europe after all, consists of several millennia-old rivals working together after a fashion

[KryptonianBlood]

The buildings of Alinor are said to look like they are "made from glass or insect wings." If the Summerset Isles are traversable at release will we see a design reminiscent of this? And will we see the Crystal Tower for that matter?!

When The Elder Scrolls Online launches, the playable part of the Summerset Isles will be Auridon, the big island between Summerset and the continent that includes the cities of Firsthold and Skywatch. The architecture of the High Elves is fanciful, certainly, but it’s also practical, constructed of real-world materials. Architects can’t make buildings out of poetry!


So based on this tidbit of info from the Q&A, it seems lore will be disregarded in favor of more common building designs. Those new players who experience Summerset Isles for the first time, in ES:O online wont be seeing insect wing looking buildings, and likley will effect game design when we finally get an ES set in Alinor.


Their post regarding Valenwood also didn't leave me feeling very optimistic about the landscapes looking similar to what we have read of in Lore. This doesn't bode well in my opinion.

[Mattbott]

TESO will lock the lands we haven't seen into a certain form or style; i know a lot can change between TESO times and 4e but whatever they do with the geography and architecture in this game, will have a knock on effect in TES6 etc

it would be very cool revitsiting a land in TES6 which you know intimately from TESO.. i would imagine there might be pyramids and other great structures which would survive the centuries..

i see TESO as enriching the experience, not spoiling it

when did that huge crab get killed in Ald Ruhn i wonder... now something like that would be a good fight

[CBR JGWRR]

... , and likley will effect game design when we finally get an ES set in Alinor. ...

FYI, Alinor in context is the Capital City, not the islands as a whole. Your other concerns may well remain valid...

[OblivionDuruza]

And certainly, we also need to keep in mind that the Bosmer and Khajiit have put aside their long-standing feuds for the time being, as have the Redguards and Orcs. What is interesting is that ZeniMax Online have established the game in such a way that there remain splinter factions for a number of races, such as the Orcs, who do not recognise the alliances around which the game is constructed.

Moves like that will surely help ensure that Bethesda and ZO have room to move within the parameters of the lore.

On the subject on Alinor however, I'm not too concerned so long as the game doesn't set foot into places that ZeniMax Online is unprepared or unable to do justice to (just as the main series has also stayed away from them), and up to this point they seem to be doing just that. We're not going to be seeing Elsweyr, most of Black Marsh and the majority of the Isles at release.

[stevar]

Haaa history...
How many years will the game span?
how many short life emperors will go on that throne during theses couple years?

Could it be remotelly possible that they were forgotten hundread sof years later in the history books you might have read in Skyrim?



This is not a normal ES game where the heroes does something unique like "save the world" , there will be millions of heroes, fighting for much mor emundanes matters like controlling the empire
The only thing really "unique" will be the "solo" main quest. As yes, the big bad guy will not destroy the world. so someone has to stop him. Or he might get bored and kill all his minions, yeah deadra lords can be like that sometimes.

[CBR JGWRR]

Haaa history...
How many years will the game span?
how many short life emperors will go on that throne during theses couple years?

Could it be remotelly possible that they were forgotten hundread sof years later in the history books you might have read in Skyrim?



This is not a normal ES game where the heroes does something unique like "save the world" , there will be millions of heroes, fighting for much mor emundanes matters like controlling the empire
The only thing really "unique" will be the "solo" main quest. As yes, the big bad guy will not destroy the world. so someone has to stop him. Or he might get bored and kill all his minions, yeah deadra lords can be like that sometimes.

Unfortunately, TES is set in a world where it is plausible that people who took part in the events of ES:O could still be alive as of Skyrim. heck, it is possible for them to be a relatively normal mortal and still be alive, despite the ten century timespan between the two.

So, that explanation doesn't hold.