What makes you mad in Skyrim?

[Raynil dralas]

Back to the topic:

What makes me mad is how damn slooooow characters are. I came fresh from playing my khajiit acrobat in oblivion and wanted to make the same character in skyrim but gave up pretty quick when i remembered how sluggish movement was in skyrim.

[CBR JGWRR]

So to clarify, you want a dedicated ambush troop, led by General Tullius himself, which is solely focused on capturing Ulfric Stormcloak to handle some random prisoner, while deep in enemy territory.

That's just not going to happen.

No, I just want to know why the story did not at all add up, and where my character's equipment went, or if I was actually sent there as a prisoner to be dealt with, because the whole start of the game is stupid. You do not simply execute a man/woman, who is visually not a stormcloak, or force them to remove their armor then execute them.

The story does add up. The fact is if it wasn't for the Imperial Legate's decision to execute you anyway you would be allowed to be free, being not on the list. If you were a pre-existing prisoner as per your example, then you would be on the list for the chop. And if you were, you wouldn't be in Skyrim anyway - You'd be in Bruma as a guest of the city guard, and they would not just send you north, into Stormcloak territory, if they didn't want to deal with you. They'd send you south to the Imperial City Prisons instead.

Your character was not a prisoner, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.


And as explained earlier, the Stormcloaks keep their armour for a reason. A reason that doesn't apply to the PC and Lokir.

[CreeperX]

Well, these don't actually make me that mad but they are certainly irritating:

- Follower idiocy.

- Bears. They are so freaking LOUD!

- That the only way to resolve conflicts is by fleeing or killing (and in some cases yielding). I can't choose to actually spare my opponents. It's especially annoying when roleplaying a pacifist type of character who would prefer to perform non-lethal takedowns if only there was a chance.

- Essential characters who don't even have any reason to be essential. It's pretty immersion breaking that I finished the Civil war on Imperial side and can't kill the damn Stormcloak campleaders. Why?

- That nothing I do have much of a consequence. I have been playing too many other games where they actually acknowledge your choices which in turn affect the NPC behaviour and the game world as a whole.

[perylousdemon]

Essential characters who don't even have any reason to be essential. It's pretty immersion breaking that I finished the Civil war on Imperial side and can't kill the damn Stormcloak campleaders. Why?

There's an easy fix for this (assuming you play on the PC). When you go into a Stormcloak/Imperial camp, open the console, select the leader, and type "setessential 0". Have fun murdering their faces off.

As for the lack of acknowledgement thing, that's either a result of laziness on Bethesda's part, or perhaps it was just too complex to code into the game. I mean, consider how vast the game world is and how many choices you can make with regards to various things. If you decide to handle a situation one way, then A happens and people treat you this way; if you decide to handle it a completely different way, then B happens and people treat you this way; if you choose to ignore it entirely, then C happens and people treat you this way. In a game with so many radiant questlines, I think it would just be too difficult to keep track of all of your choices and how they affect the world. That's just my opinion, though. As I said, it could just be laziness. *shrug*

[CreeperX]

^
Yeah I'm on PC so I do know about mods and console commands. These are just the things which irritate me in the base game. Thanks for the tip anyways =).

And when it comes to the other thing, I am aware that it would be very hard to make actual multifaceted choice branches in a game with as massive scale as Skyrim. Thus it couldn't be anything too complicated. However, there's a lot of things which IMO are just pure laziness. For example, when I'm a leader of some faction, let's say Companions, there's still NPCs in that faction who treat me like I just joined. Also, there are characters who actually hate me because of something I did, giving me a hostile greeting when I interact with them, yet they immediately change the tone when I want to trade or gain training and happily oblige like "Of course my friend". My immersion in the game always takes a blow when these kind of things happen.

[LordAshton]

So to clarify, you want a dedicated ambush troop, led by General Tullius himself, which is solely focused on capturing Ulfric Stormcloak to handle some random prisoner, while deep in enemy territory.

That's just not going to happen.

No, I just want to know why the story did not at all add up, and where my character's equipment went, or if I was actually sent there as a prisoner to be dealt with, because the whole start of the game is stupid. You do not simply execute a man/woman, who is visually not a stormcloak, or force them to remove their armor then execute them.

The story does add up. The fact is if it wasn't for the Imperial Legate's decision to execute you anyway you would be allowed to be free, being not on the list. If you were a pre-existing prisoner as per your example, then you would be on the list for the chop. And if you were, you wouldn't be in Skyrim anyway - You'd be in Bruma as a guest of the city guard, and they would not just send you north, into Stormcloak territory, if they didn't want to deal with you. They'd send you south to the Imperial City Prisons instead.

Your character was not a prisoner, they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.


And as explained earlier, the Stormcloaks keep their armour for a reason. A reason that doesn't apply to the PC and Lokir.

Except that it does not make sense. Why would they wait till an imperial legate decided your fate, knowing you just came from Cyrodiil and, thus, are not a rebel. They could have deported you, or just let you go. As for the not being on the list, maybe they did not decide your fate in Skyrim yet. the whole thing reeks of wrong, and the armor problem is part of it.

None of it makes sense unless you got sent over to Skyrim for some reason.

You get caught crossing the border into Skyrim just to magically get caught in an Imperial Ambush nowhere near the border, that is wrong, you cannot be caught in the same ambush if you are crossing the border. You would have had gear if you were willingly crossing the border. The Imperials would have either turned you away at the border or questioned you for hours to find out why you are there. None of the way the game starts makes any sense/adds up.

[Belthazor]

As for the lack of acknowledgement thing, that's either a result of laziness on Bethesda's part, or perhaps it was just too complex to code into the game. I mean, consider how vast the game world is and how many choices you can make with regards to various things. If you decide to handle a situation one way, then A happens and people treat you this way; if you decide to handle it a completely different way, then B happens and people treat you this way; if you choose to ignore it entirely, then C happens and people treat you this way. In a game with so many radiant questlines, I think it would just be too difficult to keep track of all of your choices and how they affect the world. That's just my opinion, though. As I said, it could just be laziness. *shrug*[/color]

I don't buy the whole "too complex" argument. Sure, it would be valid if there were several parts in the game with different outcomes and actual alternative ways to do things. However, except for a very few occasions, the only real choice your character can ever make is to either do something or not. Skyrim is a very linear game and all you have to decide on is when to do things. Heck, even dialog options aren't really options, because they more or less lead to the same response. Radiant quests don't add to the complexity, either, because the radiant system merely chooses the location. It makes no difference whether you get Amren's Family Sword out of the big treasure chest in dungeon A or dungeon B.

It would have been an easy thing to do to give the player better prices with traders after doing a quest for them, for example. But no, all traders in Skyrim have the same prices, only depending on the player's speechcraft skill. Doesn't matter if you got them their stolen golden claw back or punched them in the face to extort protection money from them. Even Morrowind and Oblivion handled this a lot better. And that's something that makes me mad. That they screw up working features for the sake of streamlining.

[CBR JGWRR]

Except that it does not make sense. Why would they wait till an imperial legate decided your fate, knowing you just came from Cyrodiil and, thus, are not a rebel. They could have deported you, or just let you go. As for the not being on the list, maybe they did not decide your fate in Skyrim yet. the whole thing reeks of wrong, and the armor problem is part of it.

None of it makes sense unless you got sent over to Skyrim for some reason.

You get caught crossing the border into Skyrim just to magically get caught in an Imperial Ambush nowhere near the border, that is wrong, you cannot be caught in the same ambush if you are crossing the border. You would have had gear if you were willingly crossing the border. The Imperials would have either turned you away at the border or questioned you for hours to find out why you are there. None of the way the game starts makes any sense/adds up.

1. Because they didn't have time to sort it out at the time of capture - an ambush troop deep in enemy territory is not going to faff around wasting time they don't have interrogating some random, they'll just chuck you on the cart with the Stormcloaks or just kill you then. Also, you've come via Bruma, which is largely Nordic, and hence may well contain Stormcloak sympathisers, and thus there's no guarantee you aren't a rebel, so both deporting you or letting you go are both out on those grounds too.

2. If you were sent to Skyrim you would be nowhere near the location you were in. You'd be in Imperial territory, not Stormcloak territory.

3. Well that is what happened. The gear gets looted or dumped, you get dumped on the cart because the alterative is death - there is not enough time to turn you away or question you for hours. There will be once you get to Helgen, however the Legate decides to just have you killed anyway because she's an alternative name for a female dog.

[LordAshton]

Except that it does not make sense. Why would they wait till an imperial legate decided your fate, knowing you just came from Cyrodiil and, thus, are not a rebel. They could have deported you, or just let you go. As for the not being on the list, maybe they did not decide your fate in Skyrim yet. the whole thing reeks of wrong, and the armor problem is part of it.

None of it makes sense unless you got sent over to Skyrim for some reason.

You get caught crossing the border into Skyrim just to magically get caught in an Imperial Ambush nowhere near the border, that is wrong, you cannot be caught in the same ambush if you are crossing the border. You would have had gear if you were willingly crossing the border. The Imperials would have either turned you away at the border or questioned you for hours to find out why you are there. None of the way the game starts makes any sense/adds up.

1. Because they didn't have time to sort it out at the time of capture - an ambush troop deep in enemy territory is not going to faff around wasting time they don't have interrogating some random, they'll just chuck you on the cart with the Stormcloaks or just kill you then. Also, you've come via Bruma, which is largely Nordic, and hence may well contain Stormcloak sympathisers, and thus there's no guarantee you aren't a rebel, so both deporting you or letting you go are both out on those grounds too.

2. If you were sent to Skyrim you would be nowhere near the location you were in. You'd be in Imperial territory, not Stormcloak territory.

3. Well that is what happened. The gear gets looted or dumped, you get dumped on the cart because the alterative is death - there is not enough time to turn you away or question you for hours. There will be once you get to Helgen, however the Legate decides to just have you killed anyway because she's an alternative name for a female dog.

That is the problem: YOU WEREN'T AT THAT AMBUSH! YOU WERE CAUGHT CROSSING THE BORDER FROM CYRODIIL TO SKYRIM! IN GAME DIALOGUE PROVES THAT YOU WEREN'T IN SKYRIM FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME, SO WOULD KNOW NOTHING ABOUT A CIVIL WAR!

that stuff does not add up. The only ambush I know of is the one at Darkwater Crossing, and there is no logical way for us to cross the border into skyrim to magically end up there. No divine/godly garbage and fix that.

[CBR JGWRR]

That is the problem: YOU WEREN'T AT THAT AMBUSH! YOU WERE CAUGHT CROSSING THE BORDER FROM CYRODIIL TO SKYRIM! IN GAME DIALOGUE PROVES THAT YOU WEREN'T IN SKYRIM FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME, SO WOULD KNOW NOTHING ABOUT A CIVIL WAR!

that stuff does not add up. The only ambush I know of is the one at Darkwater Crossing, and there is no logical way for us to cross the border into skyrim to magically end up there. No divine/godly garbage and fix that.

So you don't think that people down in Cyrodiil can hear of a war in the north then? Or that the character can keep walking from the border?

[LordAshton]

That is the problem: YOU WEREN'T AT THAT AMBUSH! YOU WERE CAUGHT CROSSING THE BORDER FROM CYRODIIL TO SKYRIM! IN GAME DIALOGUE PROVES THAT YOU WEREN'T IN SKYRIM FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME, SO WOULD KNOW NOTHING ABOUT A CIVIL WAR!

that stuff does not add up. The only ambush I know of is the one at Darkwater Crossing, and there is no logical way for us to cross the border into skyrim to magically end up there. No divine/godly garbage and fix that.

So you don't think that people down in Cyrodiil can hear of a war in the north then? Or that the character can keep walking from the border?

I am just saying, in-game evidence shows that our character had no knowledge of the civil war, and just keep walking would have led him to an imperial patrol since they were just coming from Cyrodiil, unless the ambush was in imperial territory.

Still see no logical evidence that our character should have been forced to leave any gear we had behind just because we were "at the wrong place at the wrong time."

[Raynil dralas]

That is the problem: YOU WEREN'T AT THAT AMBUSH! YOU WERE CAUGHT CROSSING THE BORDER FROM CYRODIIL TO SKYRIM! IN GAME DIALOGUE PROVES THAT YOU WEREN'T IN SKYRIM FOR ANY LENGTH OF TIME, SO WOULD KNOW NOTHING ABOUT A CIVIL WAR!

that stuff does not add up. The only ambush I know of is the one at Darkwater Crossing, and there is no logical way for us to cross the border into skyrim to magically end up there. No divine/godly garbage and fix that.

So you don't think that people down in Cyrodiil can hear of a war in the north then? Or that the character can keep walking from the border?

I am just saying, in-game evidence shows that our character had no knowledge of the civil war, and just keep walking would have led him to an imperial patrol since they were just coming from Cyrodiil, unless the ambush was in imperial territory.

Still see no logical evidence that our character should have been forced to leave any gear we had behind just because we were "at the wrong place at the wrong time."

Well if your character was arrested while in possession of the magical sword of Ducain +3 and a full set of Armor of the undying badass then its safe to assume they wouldn't let him keep all that and they probably confiscated it and sent it off with a few soldiers on their way to castle dour.

As for the other things maybe the legion detachment tasked with the storm cloak ambush were dispatched from Cyrodil, caught the DB trying to cross the border and detained him and stuck him in one of the wagons then it was off to Darkwater crossing to ambush the stormcloaks..... its actually poor rokir of rorikstead that was in the wrong place, wrong time.

[LordAshton]

Well if your character was arrested while in possession of the magical sword of Ducain +3 and a full set of Armor of the undying badass then its safe to assume they wouldn't let him keep all that and they probably confiscated it and sent it off with a few soldiers on their way to castle dour.

As for the other things maybe the legion detachment tasked with the storm cloak ambush were dispatched from Cyrodil, caught the DB trying to cross the border and detained him and stuck him in one of the wagons then it was off to Darkwater crossing to ambush the stormcloaks..... its actually poor rokir of rorikstead that was in the wrong place, wrong time.

I doubt that stuff would be in the price range of our PC. They seem to be either a commoner or a prisoner. More than likely someone sent the PC over with nothing to him/her but his/her name, and no way to prove that you are who you say you are.

[Hrolf Alfblod]

Has anyone considered the fact that they may not be talking of the Cyrodiil/Skirim border? The Stormcloaks were ambushed, outside of Darkwater Crossing. Darkwater Crossing happens to be near the Eastmarch/Rift border. Just a thought, as Ralof never says which border you were caught at.

[Raynil dralas]

Well if your character was arrested while in possession of the magical sword of Ducain +3 and a full set of Armor of the undying badass then its safe to assume they wouldn't let him keep all that and they probably confiscated it and sent it off with a few soldiers on their way to castle dour.

As for the other things maybe the legion detachment tasked with the storm cloak ambush were dispatched from Cyrodil, caught the DB trying to cross the border and detained him and stuck him in one of the wagons then it was off to Darkwater crossing to ambush the stormcloaks..... its actually poor rokir of rorikstead that was in the wrong place, wrong time.

I doubt that stuff would be in the price range of our PC. They seem to be either a commoner or a prisoner. More than likely someone sent the PC over with nothing to him/her but his/her name, and no way to prove that you are who you say you are.

Well If that's the case and your PC only had a few bits of rusty iron gear then are you surprised the imperials just disposed of it instead of keeping it? also whos to say that the wagons that arrive in helgan are all the wagons that set off after the ambush, its perfectly feasable that some of the wagons broke off from the convoy bound for another destination. Maybe all the confiscated weapons and such were on one of those wagons.

Fact is your trying to argue the logical inconsistency of the intro when you don't have any idea what may or may not have transpired apart from a few statements which are hearsay at best. all of your arguments are mere conjecture and there are infinite numbers of possibilities because its not actually revealed, its Schrodinger's cat, everything we suggest is both true and not true until we open the box, and as bethesda is never going to open the box on the matter this whole discussion is irrelevant.

[CBR JGWRR]

I am just saying, in-game evidence shows that our character had no knowledge of the civil war, and just keep walking would have led him to an imperial patrol since they were just coming from Cyrodiil, unless the ambush was in imperial territory.

Still see no logical evidence that our character should have been forced to leave any gear we had behind just because we were "at the wrong place at the wrong time."

1. Equally the speech options suggest they knew about it - Beth left that open on purpose so it's pointless arguing whether the PC knew or not - but for all the Imperials know they could well be Stormcloak. Which means you get dumped in the cart until they're in a position to deal with you, which was intended to be the Imperial city were it not for the Pale Pass being blocked up with snow. Your gear may well have been dumped by the roadside or hauled on the carts for that matter, but it's irrelevant as the carts get obliterated by Alduin anyway.

The thing to keep in mind is if we keep the gear it means Beth has to pin down more details about the main character - something they dislike doing. That's the real reason you don't get to keep it. Anything else is filler.

2. There are two roads from Cyrodiil to Skyrim - The Pale Pass, which is snowed off, and the Bruma-Riften Road, which is Stormcloak territory inside Skyrim. And hence, not in current use by the Imperial Legion. Certainly not in a patrol format that would give a damn about who was crossing the border or had stolen a horse in Lokir's case.


Raynil - 1st post - They weren't heading for Castle Dour, they were heading to the Imperial City to parade the Stormcloaks in front of the Emperor. And it was Lokir of Rorikstead... - 2nd post - Which means another day spent travelling through enemy territory and splitting the group which increases the chance of a successful break out attempt by the captured Stormcloaks. They wouldn't do that, too risky.

Hrolf - Good point, one we'd all overlooked. Still, they are both Stormcloak Holds so it's not an issue.

[LordAshton]

I am just saying, in-game evidence shows that our character had no knowledge of the civil war, and just keep walking would have led him to an imperial patrol since they were just coming from Cyrodiil, unless the ambush was in imperial territory.

Still see no logical evidence that our character should have been forced to leave any gear we had behind just because we were "at the wrong place at the wrong time."

1. Equally the speech options suggest they knew about it - Beth left that open on purpose so it's pointless arguing whether the PC knew or not - but for all the Imperials know they could well be Stormcloak. Which means you get dumped in the cart until they're in a position to deal with you, which was intended to be the Imperial city were it not for the Pale Pass being blocked up with snow. Your gear may well have been dumped by the roadside or hauled on the carts for that matter, but it's irrelevant as the carts get obliterated by Alduin anyway.

The thing to keep in mind is if we keep the gear it means Beth has to pin down more details about the main character - something they dislike doing. That's the real reason you don't get to keep it. Anything else is filler.

2. There are two roads from Cyrodiil to Skyrim - The Pale Pass, which is snowed off, and the Bruma-Riften Road, which is Stormcloak territory inside Skyrim. And hence, not in current use by the Imperial Legion. Certainly not in a patrol format that would give a damn about who was crossing the border or had stolen a horse in Lokir's case.


Raynil - 1st post - They weren't heading for Castle Dour, they were heading to the Imperial City to parade the Stormcloaks in front of the Emperor. And it was Lokir of Rorikstead... - 2nd post - Which means another day spent travelling through enemy territory and splitting the group which increases the chance of a successful break out attempt by the captured Stormcloaks. They wouldn't do that, too risky.

Hrolf - Good point, one we'd all overlooked. Still, they are both Stormcloak Holds so it's not an issue.

And the Stormcloaks would have thought you were an Imperial spy or locked you up until they figured out what to do with you, as well. Simply put, there are too many holes in the story for there to be anything but being sent over to Skyrim making any sense.

[Raynil dralas]

Raynil - 1st post - They weren't heading for Castle Dour, they were heading to the Imperial City to parade the Stormcloaks in front of the Emperor. And it was Lokir of Rorikstead...

Hrolf - Good point, one we'd all overlooked. Still, they are both Stormcloak Holds so it's not an issue.

I didn't say they were all headed for castle dour im saying there was probably a few guys sent to castle dour to report, it is the base of operations for the imperials in skyrim after all. And like I said we've no idea how many legionaries there was originally, only how many arrived in helgan.

And I couldn't remember his name, it sounds like hadvar says rokir anyway, stupid accent.

[Hrolf Alfblod]

CBR - If the ambush was on THAT border, then it is an issue, as the Legion had it blocked off.

It doesn't really matter, as the player is supposed to decide how their PC ended up there, with no possessions, and dressed in rags. i was just providing another POSSIBLE piece of the puzzle.

[Dohva.]

This conversation isn't on topic with the thread. Let's get back to discussing the things that make you mad in Skyrim. EDIT: Discussing things that make you mad is ok, but the conversation has turned to discussing game logistics, Stormcloaks, etc. That's not on topic with this thread.

[LordAshton]

Being mad because the story makes absolutely no sense is not on topic? We would have come with equipment to protect ourselves from danger, and/or were caught at the border and locked up. Either way, the story makes no sense on how we got to Skyrim and why we were magically caught up in an ambush by the empire.

[Raynil dralas]

Back on topic: the games logistics and the stromcloaks make me mad.

[Raynil dralas]

Being mad because the story makes absolutely no sense is not on topic? We would have come with equipment to protect ourselves from danger, and/or were caught at the border and locked up. Either way, the story makes no sense on how we got to Skyrim and why we were magically caught up in an ambush by the empire.

Well all characters at least know flames at the start of the game so maybe they didn't need gear to protect themselves.... maybe the DB is actually a homeless drunk.

[CBR JGWRR]

And the Stormcloaks would have thought you were an Imperial spy or locked you up until they figured out what to do with you, as well. Simply put, there are too many holes in the story for there to be anything but being sent over to Skyrim making any sense.

Yep, the Stormcloaks may well have got you first. However, whichever side captured you it leads to the exact same end, and hence the argument remains circular.

Hrolf - Eastmarch is Windhelm's Hold, The Rift is Riften's Hold. Both Stormcloak. Or are you talking about the Skyrim/Cyrodiil border like we were before? And yeah, your right - if Beth had managed to make this a closed case of what precisely down to the last detail happened then they've done it wrong. Hence why this discussion can happen at all...

Raynil - Logically you'd send word back later, Tullius already knows since he's actually there in the field so there's no real reason to send word back immediately. Nevertheless, the number of legionaries/number of Stormcloaks ratio does suggest that Tullius did actually send someone off. I wouldn't leave a convoy with just two cavalry and two carriage drivers to guard that many Stormcloaks...

And yes, Hadvar's accent is a bit strange. I thought he was an Imperial by race up until we got to Riverwood...



I've now set up a dedicated thread.

[Raynil dralas]

On topic this time: I hate the dialogue system in skyrim, unlike previous games that gave you a topic to ask about it outright dictates what your character says which kills my RP and immersion.... For example my Khajiit wouldn't talk like that as they have a noticeably different articulation to the other races.

In previous TES games I could make up what my character would be saying.