Saadia or Kematu

[godsmack]

Good for the evil assassin, or for the warrior who just hates being bugged for no reason upon entering the city.

Does this go for Braith? How about couriers? Do you kill everyone who approaches your character in-game? How do you RP that? There is such a thing as "player knowledge" versus "character knowledge", you know, right? Being able to distinguish and separate one from the other is the hallmark and trademark of a true role player.

[LordAshton]

Good for the evil assassin, or for the warrior who just hates being bugged for no reason upon entering the city.

Does this go for Braith? How about couriers? Do you kill everyone who approaches your character in-game? How do you RP that? There is such a thing as "player knowledge" versus "character knowledge", you know, right? Being able to distinguish and separate one from the other is the hallmark and trademark of a true role player.

Just those two if I feel like it. No need to RP except as a person who is fed up with them trying to get me to help. seeing them come up to me all the time can get on one's nerve. I usually try to avoid them entirely. and hope that by the time a do the MQ, there are still vampire raids.

[godsmack]

I could go for the "ignore" option by simply exiting dialogue and closing the dialogue box if that would work. Has anybody ever tried this and does it keep the quest from being assigned? I've never actually tried that option before.

[Archer]

If you can time it right, it should work. Its what I do for most of my characters.

[godsmack]

Yeah, I have ignored NPCs, mostly the town beggars of whatever town I'm in. Other than the "Here, have a gold piece." dialogue, I usually end it at that and don't entertain or explore any other dialogue options. I've even ignored Maul upon entering Riften, but that didn't seem to stop his associate from approaching me about joining the Thieves Guild. The only other option I can think of would be to simply enter Breezehome, but not even sure they wouldn't follow. Never tried that option before either. Besides, as Thane I feel somewhat obligated to see what's going on with the guards when I enter the city and notice the exchange, if for no other reason than curiosity.

[Elune]

As for why they're hunting her years later, why wouldn't they unless they had some evidence she was dead?

Expense is a pretty big reason. Having more productive things to do with one's time, too.

Have you ever heard of any country or group forgetting a traitor or criminal and just letting them live their lives? We hunted Nazi war criminals for decades after the war, many of whom were no longer committing any wrong doings and were just trying to live their lives.

Forgetting? No. Giving up on finding due to expense and cooling fervor? Yeah, it happens all the time in the real world, especially with criminals and traitors who weren't high-ranking Nazis with genocide proven to be on their heads. It's called a cold case. There are television shows about them, and about how ludicrously hard it is to follow up on them all with limited resources. Plus, Tamriel isn't like the real, modern world. There aren't cameras everywhere, or worldwide financial networks leaving a paperwork trail, or IP addresses to log, or DNA testing. You can get a known murderer out of jail, totally free, just by stealing a letter and changing a name in a book. These mercenaries are literally walking around Skyrim questioning every female Redguard they can find, and only stopping when they realize their targets don't have "the scar." You think they could do that for 30 years straight? Imagine questioning every Germanic person in Argentina for decades, with only a vague idea of a single facial feature to go on. That's the kind of "hunting" Kematu is engaged in. It'd be idiotic for any span of time, let alone three decades.

And, again, Kematu doesn't even have evidence. He's the one threatening random people across the province, and he doesn't have a shred of material support for his story, not even a document describing his mission. Long-standing, well-documented hunts for war criminals don't involve mercenaries hiding out with bandits three decades in and he-said-she-said antics. Whether Saadia is telling the truth about her past is irrelevant. Kematu, on top of his story having three decades of unaccounted-for time, doesn't have evidence that any of what he says is true. That's not how justice works. There's not a prosecutor in the world who would try to convict Saadia based on any of this, and if there were, they should be disbarred.

Edit: Imagine Kematu trying to convince you that Saadia is anyone BUT Saadia, the person working at the Bannered Mare, without Saadia telling you so. "That person is a war criminal from thirty years ago, and I am duly appointed to apprehend them. Please hand them over to me because... Justice. Pay no attention to the man behind the bandit curtain." That's how little evidence he offers: Not enough to even show that she's assumed a new identity (which, again, is not a crime).

I'd imagine vengeance is considered a good thing to do with your time in Tamriel.

He's threatening random Redguard women who look similar to Saadia. According to Kematu, she sold an entire city to the Thalmor, dooming it. I'd imagine the Thalmor weren't particularly merciful to the residents, if this is the case.

Saadia also says that Kematu wants to take her back to Hammerfell for execution by the Thalmor. There are no Thalmor in Hammerfell to execute her. Why does someone need to change their name and hide in an inn? Again very simply:

THE THALMOR WHO OCCUPIED HAMMERFELL ARE GONE COMPLETELY, GIVEN THIS KNOWLEDGE SAADIA HAS NO REASON NOT BE IN HAMMERFELL.

This woman is clearly guilty of some crime if she is claiming the Thalmor are after her and she is not in her home province where the Thalmor have been driven out.

[godsmack]

*edit*

He's threatening random Redguard women who look similar to Saadia.

Except they don't "look similar to Saadia", except for being Redguard women, as the in-game dialogue proves.

Keywords:

According to Kematu

This is called "hearsay".

Saadia also says that Kematu wants to take her back to Hammerfell for execution by the Thalmor. There are no Thalmor in Hammerfell to execute her.

Except that's not entirely true, as that's not exactly what she says. She does elude to them wanting to execute her and suspects it has something to do with her publicly speaking out against the Thalmor, but doesn't say how, when or where this occurred.

All she actually states is that she publicly spoke out against the Thalmor (again lacking context as the location and setting are not revealed about how, when or where this occurred) and that the A'likr are hired assassins and mercenaries that want to exchange "blood for money" meaning they plan to turn her over to the Thalmor that have someone who has obviously placed a bounty on her and taken out a contract on her life, as she does make mention of political rivals, so this could just as easily amount to a political feud.

All she really says about the Thalmor is that she suspects it *might* have something to do with her publicly speaking out against them, but that could just as easily be an unrelated red herring. In short, you're drawing conclusions and inferring connections that exist only in your mind. They may or may not be connected so it is erroneous to conclude that the Thalmor are either directly or even indirectly involved as this is only hinted at in-game.

Why does someone need to change their name and hide in an inn?

If you had a price on your head from the Thalmor, you might go into hiding as well. Considering this isn't a crime, it's rather irrelevant.

THE THALMOR WHO OCCUPIED HAMMERFELL ARE GONE COMPLETELY, GIVEN THIS KNOWLEDGE SAADIA HAS NO REASON NOT BE IN HAMMERFELL.

This woman is clearly guilty of some crime if she is claiming the Thalmor are after her and she is not in her home province where the Thalmor have been driven out.

Again, this is commonly known as and referred to as "conjecture " and "speculation" and does not warrant ambush or entrapment, let alone a death sentence to be carried out without some actual evidence of crime or wrongdoing. This is a primary and principle tenet of social justice. Is it really that hard to comprehend, grasp or understand? Really? Seriously?

[Marelo]

Spoiler:

As for why they're hunting her years later, why wouldn't they unless they had some evidence she was dead?

Expense is a pretty big reason. Having more productive things to do with one's time, too.

Have you ever heard of any country or group forgetting a traitor or criminal and just letting them live their lives? We hunted Nazi war criminals for decades after the war, many of whom were no longer committing any wrong doings and were just trying to live their lives.

Forgetting? No. Giving up on finding due to expense and cooling fervor? Yeah, it happens all the time in the real world, especially with criminals and traitors who weren't high-ranking Nazis with genocide proven to be on their heads. It's called a cold case. There are television shows about them, and about how ludicrously hard it is to follow up on them all with limited resources. Plus, Tamriel isn't like the real, modern world. There aren't cameras everywhere, or worldwide financial networks leaving a paperwork trail, or IP addresses to log, or DNA testing. You can get a known murderer out of jail, totally free, just by stealing a letter and changing a name in a book. These mercenaries are literally walking around Skyrim questioning every female Redguard they can find, and only stopping when they realize their targets don't have "the scar." You think they could do that for 30 years straight? Imagine questioning every Germanic person in Argentina for decades, with only a vague idea of a single facial feature to go on. That's the kind of "hunting" Kematu is engaged in. It'd be idiotic for any span of time, let alone three decades.

And, again, Kematu doesn't even have evidence. He's the one threatening random people across the province, and he doesn't have a shred of material support for his story, not even a document describing his mission. Long-standing, well-documented hunts for war criminals don't involve mercenaries hiding out with bandits three decades in and he-said-she-said antics. Whether Saadia is telling the truth about her past is irrelevant. Kematu, on top of his story having three decades of unaccounted-for time, doesn't have evidence that any of what he says is true. That's not how justice works. There's not a prosecutor in the world who would try to convict Saadia based on any of this, and if there were, they should be disbarred.

Edit: Imagine Kematu trying to convince you that Saadia is anyone BUT Saadia, the person working at the Bannered Mare, without Saadia telling you so. "That person is a war criminal from thirty years ago, and I am duly appointed to apprehend them. Please hand them over to me because... Justice. Pay no attention to the man behind the bandit curtain." That's how little evidence he offers: Not enough to even show that she's assumed a new identity (which, again, is not a crime).

I'd imagine vengeance is considered a good thing to do with your time in Tamriel.

He's threatening random Redguard women who look similar to Saadia. According to Kematu, she sold an entire city to the Thalmor, dooming it. I'd imagine the Thalmor weren't particularly merciful to the residents, if this is the case.

Saadia also says that Kematu wants to take her back to Hammerfell for execution by the Thalmor. There are no Thalmor in Hammerfell to execute her. Why does someone need to change their name and hide in an inn? Again very simply:

THE THALMOR WHO OCCUPIED HAMMERFELL ARE GONE COMPLETELY, GIVEN THIS KNOWLEDGE SAADIA HAS NO REASON NOT BE IN HAMMERFELL.

This woman is clearly guilty of some crime if she is claiming the Thalmor are after her and she is not in her home province where the Thalmor have been driven out.

Yeah, I already know her story doesn't make sense. Putting it in caps doesn't make it relevant. It also doesn't explain why Kematu's story doesn't make sense. You still haven't established that thirty years of idiotically unproductive search methodology makes sense, or that starting thirty years later makes sense. You also haven't given a reason for why Kematu, if he were engaged in a long-standing hunt for a war criminal, wouldn't immediately present some kind of evidence or documentation of said hunt if, say, faced with an angry demigod who just demolished a bandit group on the way to kill him. These remain pretty large holes in Kematu's story. You kind of glossed over the entirety of my argument, there, in favor of reiterating something I've already acknowledged.

I don't care whether Saadia is lying. It's totally irrelevant. Saadia isn't accusing anyone of a crime, or threatening people, or trying to kidnap/"arrest" anyone. Saadia is trying to serve you drinks in an inn, for crying out loud. She could claim she's a cliff racer in disguise for all I care. She doesn't have to prove anything whatsoever, because she's not seeking to capture someone against their will.

Kematu, however, is trying to capture someone against their will. But he presents no evidence. He proves none of his claims. That's not how war criminals are hunted and prosecuted. That's not how justice works.

Edit: Whoops, it looks like Saadia's story does make sense, because she doesn't actually claim anything about the Thalmor. She suspects something, but for all we know that's just paranoia. Paranoia is a perfectly natural result of being hunted and not knowing why. Good catch, godsmack.

[Avron the S'wit]

Just a friendly reminder to have a conversation without arguing to everyone in this thread. Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree.

And remember, even with cruise control, you still have to steer...so no caps, friends!

[The SheoDovah]

Let's get back to the basics.

Neither side offers proof but Saadia does seem very guilty as no-one would pull a knife on a person that told them that a bunch of warriors from Hammerfell were looking for a redguard women. Her story about the Thalmor seems a bit fishy as they usually send their own people to deal with threats instead of turning to humans for help. And i can't really see Kematu agreeing to help the Thalmor due to the war in Hammerfell. It would be like the Thalmor workign with Ulfric Stormcloak to bring down the Dovahkiin.

However, Kematu may not actually be a warrior from Hammerfell and could have just been a smart bandit leader although there are a lot of holes in that theory as bandits don't usually track down one person inside a city. He could have worked for the DB and was doing a very risky plan to assassainate Saadia who i think claimed to be a high ranking noble and that too has a lot of holes in.

[Marelo]

Acting fishy isn't a crime. Also, it's not all that fishy when you consider that she is being hunted down and she knows it, but admits that she doesn't know why and that all her guesses are just that: Guesses. Thalmor may be a stupid guess, but making stupid guesses, again, is not a crime.

Edit: Okay, I'm just going to make a two-sentence case that gets right to the heart of the matter, and leave it at that:

The quest is not solvable based on evidence because there is no evidence presented, only hearsay. The only justifiable path in the absence of evidence is the assumption of innocence on the part of the accused.

[godsmack]

Again, another "guilty" verdict lacking any evidence whatsoever of any actual crime or wrongdoing. I can't help but be curious about the driving force behind this burning desire and need to railroad and scapegoat a woman in the minds of her accusers for which no evidence whatsoever exists or is ever produced of any actual crime or legitimate wrongdoing. What causes that? Where does that come from? The whole "drawing a dagger" thing? If that were actually a legitimate threat, that argument might actually carry some more weight than it really does. At best that's a pretty flimsy justification or rationalization considering the real threats the character actually faces on a routine basis. That's not much of a nail to hang your hat on or hinge your argument on. She comes across as a desperate woman who draws ready to defend herself if necessary, as the in-game dialogue shows. "If you touch me you'll lose fingers", or something to that effect, etc. Now, can anybody produce a single legitimate rational reason why I should or would go along with the Alik'r mercenaries to ambush, entrap and kidnap a woman in hiding against her will?

[Elune]

*edit*
Except they don't "look similar to Saadia", except for being Redguard women, as the in-game dialogue proves.

Keywords:
This is called "hearsay".

Except that's not entirely true, as that's not exactly what she says. She does elude to them wanting to execute her and suspects it has something to do with her publicly speaking out against the Thalmor, but doesn't say how, when or where this occurred.

All she actually states is that she publicly spoke out against the Thalmor (again lacking context as the location and setting are not revealed about how, when or where this occurred) and that the A'likr are hired assassins and mercenaries that want to exchange "blood for money" meaning they plan to turn her over to the Thalmor that have someone who has obviously placed a bounty on her and taken out a contract on her life, as she does make mention of political rivals, so this could just as easily amount to a political feud.

All she really says about the Thalmor is that she suspects it *might* have something to do with her publicly speaking out against them, but that could just as easily be an unrelated red herring. In short, you're drawing conclusions and inferring connections that exist only in your mind. They may or may not be connected so it is erroneous to conclude that the Thalmor are either directly or even indirectly involved as this is only hinted at in-game.

If you had a price on your head from the Thalmor, you might go into hiding as well. Considering this isn't a crime, it's rather irrelevant.

Again, this is commonly known as and referred to as "conjecture " and "speculation" and does not warrant ambush or entrapment, let alone a death sentence to be carried out without some actual evidence of crime or wrongdoing. This is a primary and principle tenet of social justice. Is it really that hard to comprehend, grasp or understand? Really? Seriously?

Except they do look similar minus the scar, as looking at them proves.

Go start the quest again with her, she says specifically that the Thalmor want to execute her. She specifically says she is a noble in Hammerfell and it occurred in Hammerell. Why would she have a price on her head? Not for speaking out against the Thalmor in a province that the Thalmor have little - no influence in.

If it was just a political feud why would she invent a story about the Thamor? Why invent a story about the Thalmor at all? It's clearly false. THe Thalmor aren't "only hinted at in in-game"

Lying about who you are is in fact a crime in many places. Moreover, why would a woman make a nonsensical claim ("They want to take me back to Hammerfell to be executed by the Thalmor" SHE DIRECTLY SAYS THIS) as well as lie about who she is, and furthermore provide more nonsense claims about it being over speaking up against the Thalmor in Hammerfell a province free from them. Nevermind the plethora of others who spoke/are speaking against the Thalmor, or that the Thalmor would use their own agents not hired mercs from a province that hates them. She is blatantly and nonsensically lying about it and also pretending she's someone she's not.

What "innocent" person does this? Kematu wants to take her back to Hammerfell for trial, he gets upset if you kill her (no don't bother arguing that Kematu would be scared because you're the Dragonborn, he wouldn't know you're the Dragonborn). Kematu has: 1. No Reason to lie, if he just wanted her for some political feud he would have probably just said so (trusting that someone would be low or indifferent enough to sell her out, and they would be) 2. Wants to restrain her and take her to Hammerfell 3. Has a much better reasoning for why he's after her

Most likely Saadia is to be taken back to Hammerfell for trial, not simply just executed out of hand.


What court wouldn't side with Kematu? Saadia's story is utter nonsense and self-contradicting from all angles and if it were true it wouldn't be A'likr after her.

May I ask why you presume to mock me when you don't even have a clue about what Saadia says in game?

[Hrolf Alfblod]

Marelo & godsmack: I just wanted to say that you two would make great defense lawyers. If Saadia's case were to be brought to a court, in today's world, I gotta agree, having served on a jury, twice, that there is no evidence to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, to convict her. Innocent until proven guilty.

[LordAshton]

And Kematu says just as much when he says she BETRAYED a city. Seems to me that they are just trying to manipulate you. Best course of action is, again, to ignore them completely or kill the guys who give you the quest and pay the bounty.

[Yaije]

Now, can anybody produce a single legitimate rational reason why I should or would go along with the Alik'r mercenaries to ambush, entrap and kidnap a woman in hiding against her will?

I would say because they ask you nicely. In a manner more pleasant than half the Jarls would when they send you.. or have their servant or whatever send you... on a similar task.

It's a legitimate and rational reason imo. If you're looking for a shred of evidence supporting them as a legit group of foreign warriors? Unless you sneak into Kematu's section of the bandit cave they're lodging in and happen to pick up what the bandits are talking about (it's not normal npc banter during the quest's active time) you won't find anything.

I would ask what legitimate reason you have for believing a liar who blew into town is being completely honest about their situation.

I know there's no real answer, but because Saadia took the time and effort to lure the player into a private room to make that flimsy threat put them in my book as not on the up and up. Desperate? I don't care. She could have brushed teh question aside, feigned ignorance and told the guards someone harassed her or kept going about her business... instead it was an introduction with a dagger.

edit:
also, how much info are you ever given when you're told to go kill some target in the wild? Unless it's a dark brotherhood hit (before getting missions from the night mother), it's going to be just a location and vague description.

[Taters]

Alright, kids, play time's over. This is getting out of hand. You were warned once about the arguing, but it seems to no avail. This thread is locked until further notice.