How are Dragons Easy?

[Da_BossMaN69]

Now I understand that logic, but even if they can do such damage which they haven't to me, I don't know I mean maybe my guy is simply overkill, but even then I still find dragons the most challenging, and I haven't even faced legendarys yet, god knows what horrors those things might be.

But back on the FBH they have to be glass cannons then because while yes they can ki you easy it's only so much more for us. I mean often times I don't let them hit me once, and that's not a hard thing to do with all the tools at your disposal.

And what I'm trying to say is those very same tools don't work for dragons, since they can't be ragdolled or paraylzed.

And while yes my guy is overpowered (as he should be since the very beginning of the game nearly every creature kicked my ass, now it's my turn) its still the dragons that provide the most challenge and I faced off against that one dragonpriest in bloodskal barrow to just test out their level of difficulty

Again I find them easier than dragons since once you close that gap and corner them, which they often do themselves the fight is more or less over since they can be staggered constantly with no real defense for it

[dzio]

Two things - first of all dragons are extremely predictable in combat and there is always a breather between the attacks, so you can prepare for the next round. It makes the fight easier for me than the attack of an enemy who doesn't let up for a second.

And the other thing - I understand why dragons are tough when you're using an extremely powerful melee character who can take everything else without breaking the sweat. I usually play sneaks or nightblade type characters. So for me a melee enemy who zeroes in on me and is quick is much more dangerous than one who keeps its distance for large part of the fight.

(edit: stupid grammar)

[Nord85]

Well, if you are using paralysis regularly then I can well see what you mean, DaBoss. I, personally, use alchemy mainly for healing and skill buffs, not poisons, and even with my Illusion/Destruction Mage I never got high enough skill to paralyze enemies. Also, with my awful luck I usually tend to run into Briarhearts and other tough melee enemies in close quarters and/or when I've just used a shout against easier opponents.

Basically, I think dragons - or any other enemies for that matter - being easy or not depends entirely on what combat tools one is used to rely on. Of course they are going to seem hard if they are immune to the very thing one uses most often, be it paralysis or Fus Ro Dah. Conversely, for someone like me who's most comfortable using long range bow shots combined with brute force in melee, an opponent like a dragon is rather simple to fight (not always easy, though, since those aren't always the same thing). So, in the end it's down to "different folks, different strokes".

(P.S. There's one shout that is quite useful against dragons, namely Marked for Death. With two or three words that softens them up rather nicely.)

[Haravikk]

I haven't voted in the poll because I haven't really played a game long enough since the newer levels of dragon were added, so I can't say what they're like.

However, from playing the main game several times, I have to say that Dragons are pretty weak at the start of the game at least. I've had far more trouble with overly aggressive bears that will charge you when you think you're far enough away and proceed to chase you forever, killing you extremely quickly if you slow down, and Sabrecats that do the same (but are even faster). Especially if you go to Winterhold or climb High Hrothgar a little too early you can end up face-to-face with a Snowy Sabrecat that no power in your arsenal can actually defeat.

Sure, later one when you're fully kitted out you haven't much to worry about from animals, but earlier on they are far more difficult.

Giants are another one; I don't recall any dragon battles in which I've been killed with a single hit, but a giant can still one-shot you even after you've levelled up twenty or so times. Bandit Chiefs are a similar thorn in the side; it's pretty much impossible to tell which bandit encounters will involve a chief unless you've memorised them all or have UESP to hand, and some even start out with laughably easy bandits making you think things won't be too hard, only to throw a bandit chief at you that will one-shot you with a two-handed weapon, or take a ton of damage to take down.

Yes, you could use Unrelenting Force to ragdoll many of these enemies, but it can still be very hard to exploit that enough to defeat them before they get up and kill you while you're waiting for the cool down. Also, if you don't want to be plagued by random dragon attacks then you can just not do the Dragon Rising quest, which is a great way to focus on guilds, Dawnguard etc., but deprives you of dragon shouts. For those playing on consoles without the luxury of mods that let us achieve the same thing but still have shouts, it's play with shouts and be plagued by dragons, or skip shouts so no Unrelenting Force ragdoll hijinks.

Dragons are also a lot better at advertising their presence; you usually hear roaring well before you encounter one, while many just stick to their designated area till you provoke them. Even many of the random ones may just ignore you while they focus on flying about. But bandit chiefs can suddenly charge from among far easier regular bandits, a sabrecat may be just over the top of a hill waiting to maul your face off and so-on. Even some of the regular bandits are horrible enemies because they're simply identified as "Bandit" despite being a much higher level than normal; some of the random encounters are particularly bad for that and you suddenly find a single arrow has taken off most of your health. Briarhearts also fall into the extremely annoying bandit chief category.


So yeah; most of my complaints are for the earlier game where you don't have the skills and abilities to take on tough enemies. I dunno if I'd say bears are fundamentally harder than dragons; they become a lot easier later on, but Skyrim has a lot of very annoying design defects that can make a wide variety of enemies practically unbeatable in the early game, which makes much harder than the dragons you'll face around the same time.

It can also depend on your character build; if you focus on stealth then dragons are horrible enemies to fight as you can almost never sneak up on one thanks to everything that's outdoors having precognitive abilities, and them mostly flying around anyway. Also the first dragon you fight in Dragon Rising is very hard on higher difficulties if you face it almost straight away, as the guards just get slaughtered in seconds and its fire breath can down you with only brief exposure.


But erm… yeah, I would say that on average Dragons are easier, but many other enemies are most difficult as a result to some of the quirks and annoyances with Skyrim's enemy difficulty system. Same issues that Morrowind and Oblivion both had really (though Oblivion not so much I think?).

[philfredobob]

Also the first dragon you fight in Dragon Rising is very hard on higher difficulties if you face it almost straight away, as the guards just get slaughtered in seconds and its fire breath can down you with only brief exposure.

I don't know what you mean here. I fought Mirmulniir on Master at level 14 or so, so quite low level, and the guards were like superheroes.

I think we've established that probably the main reasons Dragons are usually easier is because they can be predictable and slow. sure they are strong and have loads of health, but in the end it's slow speed that dooms them, and they usually end up a long fight but not necessarily a difficult one.

[Da_BossMaN69]

I can understand you guys ideas but don't get the wrong idea I'm not a shout [&@%!], most of the time I charge on with little fore thought. And I'm sorry havark, but I can't agree with you at all.

Bears being tougher than dragons? The can't even match the damage dragons do nor do they even have the health. That being said I know you mean at first they're tougher but I believe too many people forget how much back up you have against Mulminiir.

And giants at first are tough yes, but a challenge past level 12, I can't agree.

Please, please don't think i'm being a pompous ass when I say this next thing, but is there any chance you guys aren't using proper technique when fighting these enemies?

I only bring this up since you guys mention that these other enemies get the jump on you which I understand, but once you've been jumped several of these enemies have obvious tells before they attack

Trolls and Giants in Particular, At level 1 you can kill a frost given you have the patience and footwork. Half the time the swing wildly and if you can simply sprint for a second left or right of them he'll keep going for a second or two letting you hit him, then you repeat, eventually he'll do the roar or jump up and down giving you precious seconds. So repeat this process and if you have the luxury of steel a viable you can kill a troll easy at level one.

Same for giants, in fact as an archer almost too easy. Simply go Mongolian on their ass. Get a horse a lot of arrows and ride around hitting them, only get easier later on, and missing them is hard to do given their size.

Melee wise is harder but do able. Run from them until they bring down the hammer it'll take them 5 scones or so to ready another attack, then you hit them increase the gap and wait for their follow up. Their easiest avoidable attack is their reach around.

If behind them they turn around with a back hand that easily avoided and of they do hit you do minimum damage.

Mammoths shouldn't be messed with period until you find giants easy, now this things I can see being harder at earlier levels.

But yes I can understand how you might finder the standard dragon easy, but a blood is a whole level harder and easy eclipses most enemies in terms of difficulty.

And I hate to be that guy, but magic >>>>>>bears, giants, forsowrn, falmer, and anyone save for the dragons and their ilk (dragon priests, draugr death lords).

Briarhearts are cake when being slowed by I a constant flurry of ice spells and with a summon even if its only a familiar. Plus plan ahead put on armor place a rune in a bottleneck area and they cans be slapped silly with mages.

[dzio]

See, you're describing very effective techniques, but remember that they are not possible with every character, especially when role playing. My archer is crap at close combat at level 25 because that's the way I chose to build her, not because I don't understand how combat works.

[Br3admax]

What's a "shout [&@%!]?" And why won't you use the one thing unique to your character. Finally, why would you charge into battle without thinking? That might be why you have so little success in this, difficulty wise.

[dzio]

Roleplay-wise, I had one character who would do a Leroy Jenkins in every combat situation, and yes, she was actually very hard to play and dragon battles were extremely tough.

[Finn Wolfshorn]

And I hate to be that guy, but magic >>>>>>bears, giants, forsowrn, falmer, and anyone save for the dragons and their ilk (dragon priests, draugr death lords).

Magic >>>>> dragons too, as long as you use a different element than they use themselves (fire against ice, ice against fire, shock against either, fire & ice against shock; and by the way fire magic >>>>>> deathlords, dragon priests and anything undead - once you get the impact perk in destruction and have a large enough magicka pool you can just keep them staggered while you fry them).

On the other hand, magic and elemental resistance >>>>>> dragon breath, so you just have to level enchanting enough to slap some decent resist enchantments onto your gear. Using just four slots, you can make your character resistant against fire, frost, shock and magic in general and still have space left to put something different on your head, chest and hands (not even counting double enchantments); once you level enchanting high enough you'll be able to just stand in a dragon's breath attack and shrug it off while taking aim with bow or spell. Fighting them in melee after they land is a different matter, of course, but as you seem to have no problem with blocking and footwork you should be doing fine (you can even shield-bash the beast's ugly snout, which I find very satisfying).

[VirtualWeasel]

If you're not levelling yourself intelligently, then they're not gonna be easy to kill.

[Yaije]

Dragons announce their presence, take multiple breaks in their attack you for to rest up or run for a better field position, and don't alter their routine beyond following your general position.

A single tree can thwart their elemental attacks and they won't try to move into a better position.

Everything else? Will run around obstacles or run when it can't get an attack on you (even wolves know when to flee in my game somehow)

edit: IMO dragons are easy if you have some ranged technique that can hurt them, and a pillar to hug

edit2:

one of my favorite demi god characters was a magic immune, master wizard/thief. killed briarhearts with nimble fingers and dragons with his voice

Spoiler:

stood back and shouted the opposing element when on the ground and peppered them in the sky

but as they always ran around with 0 armor rating in only a pair of pants, a hood, gloves and boots the only thing that gave them pause was stray arrows from those enemies you don't notice immediately

Spoiler:

you know in the last few MQ bits when you get to the place with all the dragons... there's that ONE FREAKING ARCHER..... at a corner with like 3-7 dragons. the dragons are a cake walk while that one archer is a pain in the ass to reach and disable.

[BetaB17]

Personally I don't find dragons weak, but at the same contradiction their easier than most. What they have at best is the potential to deal a large pool of damage and payloads of health, however they spend so much time flying around or giving off obvious openings. Melee players obviously would have more issue till they land, while mages over all tend to have the advantage.

If I was to say.. compare a dragon to a dragon priest, of course I'll be more afraid of the priest because he's more direct with his assault.. he knows how to use the best of what he has. Sadly dragons don't by themselves, they leave too many calm points and rarely barrage you with attacks once your cornered. Now I must say, alot of this gets solved when fighting 2 or more dragons at once. You have to worry about two assaults that can overlap, even preventing you any clear openings.

By far the first time I fought two at once, it was the funnest and challenging moments in that game. I was yet a high level, still around my 20s thus I was neither overpowered or underpowered. Dragons always posed me a challenge, but only by the fact they attacked me in villages and I despise letting named NPC's die. Learning how to stagger a dragon solves that problem, but it just seems dragons are just asking to be open targets.

In my dispute, dragons pose more as lower level hazards, only becoming easier to outsmart in higher levels. They can soak up tons of damage and if your not careful it'll be your last, but they just don't pose the same risk as high level bosses you come across. They aren't that direct in their assault, thus giving the illusion on how easy their AI makes them

[Haravikk]

I don't know what you mean here. I fought Mirmulniir on Master at level 14 or so, so quite low level, and the guards were like superheroes.

Level 14's still pretty high, I can't remember what level I was on but I'm pretty sure it was less than 10, and that was doing the barrow at Riverwood, then straight to Whiterun to fight the dragon. Although I didn't think the guard levelled, but they were all dead by the time Mirmulniir was forced onto the ground, at which point his only targets were me and Irileth, who was stuck in her kneeling pose because every time she started to recover he turned and blasted her before turning straight back to me. It also doesn't help if you have hardly any potions etc., which is easy enough to do at the start.

Like I say though I don't think they're so hard in general, the biggest factor is your character build and when you encounter each type. When new dragon types start surfacing they can be very hard initially until you catch up a bit in level. I don't mind that say much, but you then compare it to various enemies that are hard from the very start, but that you can't tell are going to so difficult, such as bandit chiefs, briarhearts etc.; at least giants and mammoths are obviously threatening, and if you actually manage to see a bear or sabrecat before getting into its aggression range then you can usually avoid those too, but there are plenty of occasions when you trigger these enemies without realising and suddenly you're up against something you simply can't beat.
The biggest issue with these though is Skyrim's lack of forewarning and lack of feedback for enemy difficulty; if a bandit chief had some big "don't fight this guy" indicator if you're far too low a level then they might not be so frustrating, same if dungeons advertised their difficulty a bit better. There are far too many that have ridiculously easy exterior enemies, but are prohibitively difficult as you approach the end. At least with dragons you're completely aware they're there and that they're going to have high health, damaging attacks and various shouts.

[dzio]

^I'm actually very happy that there is no indication like that. It's too "gamey" and would ruin immersion. It makes sense that sometimes you meet something that's too strong for you and there's no need to make things easier. It's easy enough as it is.

[Nord85]

Got to second dzio. This one is maybe the best feature that was partly brought back from Morrowind. With Oblivion's strict level scaling everything was so unexciting. In Morrowind, and now in Skyrim, dungeon diving is much more unpredictable with regard to enemy difficulty. One of the best moments in Skyrim for me have been those where I have unexpectedly run into something that's much tougher than me and survived a hairy fight with it by the skin of my teeth. Also, a few times I even have had to run away and come back when I've got a few sizes bigger boots. E.g. the first time I met giants I only survived with a combination of mashing the sprint button, Unrelenting Force and Whirlwind Sprint. IMO that's actually more fun than Oblivion where you always knew you could beat the bad guys.

[Da_BossMaN69]

At this point I think the thread should be closed it's clear I'm in the minority but I can walk away somewhat understanding this more, I still don't agree with you guys, but maybe that's just the way 8 play and I'll chalk it up to differences in play style.

And I meant to say shout w---e, meaning I don't just simply spam shouts. I will agree with you guys on one thing a dragonpriest is harder to kill than a dragon, at long range that is, close the gap and different story, that I'm sure we can all agree on

[lowtech redneck]

Honestly, I've come to regard Dragons as Skyrim's equivalent of Cliff Racers.....

[Nord85]

Oh, they are not that bad. At least you get some valuable loot from them, plus they don't ambush you after every single step.

[lowtech redneck]

^They don't dog every step in the wilderness, but they are constantly attacking the towns and cities, killing NPC's whom I would prefer remain alive, and making me reload every time that happens.

[Nord85]

You have some seriously bad luck then, or I have a very good luck. That is, during my 250+ play hours a dragon attacking a town has been a rare occurrence and by some miracle the dragons have always concentrated mostly on the guards and me.

[The SheoDovah]

Once you are past a certain level, they are easy. Pure mages have little to no trouble with them. Battlemages, the same. Stealth characters can one hit kill them. They only pose a challenge to pure melee characters and are just a disappointment in how predicatable they can be. Bethesda needs to take a look at Dragon's Dogma because Capcom did dragons right. In that game, they are very challenging and are utter [&@%!] to fight. Hell, the first dragon i fought made Alduin seem like a mudcrab. But getting back to Skyrim, Dragons are just pushovers. I mean, if i'm having more trouble with the undead then a dragon, something is wrong. If a giant can kill a dragon, something is wrong, if a simple blacksmith can smash it's head in with a hammer, something is wrong. And so forth.

[Mattbott]

i have a khaajiti assassin who has to flee from dragons unless there are plenty of npcs around to help because he can stealth kill humanoids, but not much else

i have a heroic dovahkiin dragonrend using character with slightly more health than the max bite damage of any type of dovah, and loads of healing potions, who can take them down very easily so long as he keeps an eye on the red bar

and a nord archeologist who has to wait for them to land and has to be careful to attack flanks in order to kill them - so technique is more important with this guy

so imo it depends greatly on your character, as has been said

Spoiler:

Dragons are dangerous when flying, and tbh if i were a dragon i would never land if i had a choice - from playing the main plot, i kind of assumed the overwhelmingly important reason the dragons were ever defeated in the first place was cos of the secret weapon dragonrend - thinking tactically about it, a few dragons strafing the ground with fire will not be in too much danger of being shot down by archers and mages..

Once on the ground they are only dangerous if you are standing in front of their mouths, and tbh this makes them less of a challenge - Skyrim dragons are a bit like fish out of water when they have landed and that's their greatest weakness as the ultimate enemy in Skyrim.

as far as dangerous foes are concerned, Krosis is dangerous because he spams fireballs and dodges a lot - boring maybe but that's how combat works in computer games

so i have instances where i do and dont want to meet them, and the game is realistic enough to allow me to flee or hide, and avoid the fight (unlike cliff racers). I have had a few town attacks and both dragons and guards seem to be ineffectual so it's like the game is waiting for me to get involved

perhaps they could beef up the wing and tail attacks of landed dragons so more heroes could be sent flying - it would make more sense for dragons to land, but they still have drama and challenge for me

i like it when you see and hear a dragon in the distance, and it just flies off. Makes things seem more realistic

[CreeperX]

It depends of a character but the truth is that I personally have had more trouble with regular enemies than Dragons. I mostly play as mages or thief/assassins tough so my ranged battle is pretty good. For my destruction/conjuration mage Dragons are insanely easy. You can just keep stun-locking them. Of course you can do that to other enemies too but the difference between dragons and them is that you usually fight dragons with plenty of space and when they fly around and do their predictable attack patterns they also give you lots of time to get ready between attacks. This particular mage has reduced the destruction magicka cost to zero tough so he doesn't need this breather time but some other mages do. When some ebony Battle Axe wielding Draugr Deathlord backs your squishy mage/thief into a corner and swings that weapon of his, I have had plenty of "Oh [&@%!]!" reactions. Also, high-level bow wielding enemies (like Deathlords or some Falmer) can be a pain since they have actually managed to one-shot me before I have really even noticed they were there. Arch-mages can be really tough too since you often fight them in enclosed space where they just spam their spells and you can hardly even see anything. Dragons almost never manage to corner me (unless I get stuck to some random rock or something) and it's easy to dodge their breath attack by just hiding behind a tree. They also announce their presence rather clearly, giving you time to be prepared and, for example, find that tree/rock/whatever to block their breath attacks.

However, I do not think Dragon are too easy. They give plenty of challenge for more melee oriented characters especially and some of my assassins who realy on sneak attacks had had hard time too since they haven't been able to hide. Ice Dragons can be a pain to a melee character since they drain your stamina and I have had some nice one-shot death moments when the Dragon has just decided to use one of those animated bite attacks when I have tried to heroically bash his face in =P
Still, I do have had more trouble with other enemies. I guess it's because of their more relentless nature. They just come at you and don't give you much space. Sometimes my mages/thieves just plain out miss their attacks while a Dragon instead is a nice big target.
I didn't vote in the poll though since I'd have chosen option somewhere between. Something like: "it depends".

[Da_BossMaN69]

Once you are past a certain level, they are easy. Pure mages have little to no trouble with them. Battlemages, the same. Stealth characters can one hit kill them. They only pose a challenge to pure melee characters and are just a disappointment in how predicatable they can be. Bethesda needs to take a look at Dragon's Dogma because Capcom did dragons right. In that game, they are very challenging and are utter [&@%!] to fight. Hell, the first dragon i fought made Alduin seem like a mudcrab. But getting back to Skyrim, Dragons are just pushovers. I mean, if i'm having more trouble with the undead then a dragon, something is wrong. If a giant can kill a dragon, something is wrong, if a simple blacksmith can smash it's head in with a hammer, something is wrong. And so forth.

No way dude this was just too much hyperbole.

Only can a giant kill a standard dragon, anything like a blood or higher will kill swarms of them.

And your blacksmith reference seems unlikely, pure luck that such a situation were to occur.

And Bethesda has done everything to make them the hardest enemies you'll face, they have 4x the health most enemies have as we'll as being able to deal lethal damage, immune to all forms of paralysis and fly at speeds where you can hardly touch them.

In all honestly the only thing they could have done to make them harder was let them use the full spectrum of shouts, that alone would have been enough.

If you found them easy, than that's one you since these guys have done most everything technically (in the literal sense) possible to make them so.