Do videogames make you want to steal cars? (games/violence)

[The Most Unholy]

Define "Aimed".

As to violence in society and weapons: to surest way you can force many civilians to appreciate the sanctity of life is by showing them the tangible means of ending it— to learn what power does. And what it costs. You can't respect something if you are forced to remain ignorant of it.

Guns, swords, batons— it's all good. What I want see kept out of civilian hands are siege trebuchets. You can put someone's eye out with one of those things.

Dark Spark...those two paragraphs are my new best friends.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Yeah, who wants to rule over bloody, naked corpses?

Was that aimed at me?

Aimed as in.... was I the one targeted for that comment?

[The Most Unholy]

Is that at all relevant to the topic?

[Dark Lord Cam]

no.

Are you avoiding the question?

[The Most Unholy]

What gives you that idea?

[Dark Lord Cam]

Twisted Evil, Interesting.......

[Jeff]

Every little kid should grow up with a sandbox, a few empty cereal boxes, scattered pieces of a chess set, and some dolls. Nothing brand-name, nothing trendy. The simple stuff that doesn't come with a packaged backstory or scripted universe that the child must parrot back in order to play "properly".

That's all I ever had growing up, and look where it got me... Retired from the Army. I lived 25 years of my life in Violence.

As to violence in society and weapons: to surest way you can force many civilians to appreciate the sanctity of life is by showing them the tangible means of ending it— to learn what power does. And what it costs. You can't respect something if you are forced to remain ignorant of it.

That would be true for REAL, weapons.

However, video games do not actually do that. Take GTA, you regain health buy visiting a prostitute...? In real life, that gets you an STD, possibly AIDS/Death...

- - - - - -

There is a point where the Parents Influence ends, and other influences take effect. Once kids hit the teens, they actually start doing the things that set their life path. Whether that is education, sports, or other things. This is where TV, Movies, Internets, & Video Games come into play. Now if the Partents Failed earlier in Development, then things aren't looking good here.

Two factors that have yet to be mentioned here, are Friends/Peer Pressure, and the Demon Alcohol/Drugs. These two things have the most influence in the later teens.

Not convinced that Video Games have a STRONG Influence over people...? Where are you now...? On a Forum for a Video Game. It is summer for those in the Northern Hemisphere. You should all be on Vacations, outside playing, experiencing life.

Still not Convinced yet...? Just take a look at User Names, Avatars & Signatures...

Is Video Games the Sole Corrupter? Not by a long shot.

If you banned Video Games, would it eliminate Violence? Of Course not.

Can it play a PART as a bad influence, that could lead to Violence? Yes, it can. However, there has to be other factors involved as well.

Would (violent) Video Games ever get Banned? Not by a long shot.

Does two Scientific Studies prove anything? Hardly There is no way to prove it one way or the other. Science, and specifically Psycologoy is constantly contradicting itself. How many years has Pluto been a planet? ...and now it isn't???

[Dogmantra]

Tourist: Was this statement backed up by a scientific state-the-obvious study? If so, then it's 100% false. (or 100% "I could have told you that")

[leroybrown]

I generally agree with you jeff. Whats your opinion of the argument that video games are constantly desensitizing us? Ive had this argument a few times and it seems a lot of people stick to this. The only thing i dont like about that argument is when i hear it, it is usually from somebody whos never played a game in their entire life.

[The Tourist]

People have to be responsible for their actions whether they base them on what they saw in video games or in other media.

Really not intending to be facetious on this one, but: in an age where no one takes takes responsibility for themselves, saying "people have to be responsible for their actions" is about the least helpful thing anyone could say. Obviously people should, but they're not - and that doesn't change overnight, nor does something like that get changed by a quick policy change.

Dogmantra; State The Obvious studies are fairly meaningless in themselves, but they're symptomatic of the fact that games have - or are - finally hitting the cultural radar. And their intended findings are supposed to carry more weight these days, because of the perceived severity of the whole "won't somebody, please, think of the children!!!" situation.

Dark Spark; I was read too everynight, and did all the oldskool 'using my imagination' stuff, but I also had a computer whose tape loading games took about 12 minutes to boot, and even after then you weren't guaranteed to get to play the game...

As to violence in society and weapons: to surest way you can force many civilians to appreciate the sanctity of life is by showing them the tangible means of ending it— to learn what power does

That seems - and I think is - simplistically, conceptually didactic. Collectively, people don't generally learn the errors of their ways just by showing them the consequences of their potential actions (or even the actions of others).

Gun crime is a hot topic right now in the UK, and 'yoof crime' linked with gun crime is often linked with music/games/Scapegoat-Influence of The Week. Virtual weapons don't teach anybody anything (other than the ejection port for AK's is generally on the wrong side for dramatic effect, and that MP5's have highly variable reload operations) - and I'm really not sure that the presence of real ones has any marginally positive effect.

What Can Be Done?
Other than change societies entire conceptions about the avante-garde and 'out there' concepts of moral self-responsbility (overnight, preferably), what can be done?

Law/What You Government Can Do For You: via making parents more aware of adult content and the notion of heathly game sessions, access to violent games does need to be tightened up - which can be done via the shops, and the laws determining exactly how 18 rated titles end up being played by 11-year-olds (also regarding the legal consequences of 'bad' sales). They'll still get hold of them, but the point is parents generally wouldn't buy their little kid an 18 rated film - but don't quite equate the same explicitness of content (with added immersion) in games. That comes from the misconception I reffered to previously.

Developers/Publishers: developers would be hardest to affect as far as actual content goes, as the debate then strays completely into 'freedom of speech', and that's always a touchy one... but publishers and promotion companies definitely can be legally coerced to a greater effect. Where adverts end up, the content and nature of these ads, and what styles of promotions are used - all can be controlled and can have influence over sales figures and who plays what.

(On a completely different note, is that a slightly different SAS insignia in your gamertag tourist? or something completely different?)

Drop the dagger, change the wings and add a motto, and you'd be right there. But no, it's the Rainbow 6 ELITE badge.

And it kinda ties in to what Weka (and leroybrown has just) reffered to.
To get my highly prestigious rank, badge (I'm Elite level 2, which is max-rank +2) and paid-for gamerpic, I had to 'kill' thousands of virtual badguys.

To me, all those thousands of badguys weren't actually badguys or human beings at all, they were collections of polygons and textures, given life via animation and some terribly scripted voice dialogue. FPS's aren't actually about killing anything, they're puzzle games on the fly - where reactions are your 'tetris power blocks', and the puzzles are the highly variable, obviously volotile threat conditions. So those terrorists were just reprosentations, building blocks that play a specific part in a highly developed virtual playground.

But for a younger, less healthy, less aware mind, would that process - of 'killing' thousands of 'people' - help in de-sensitising them to potential violence, or even just hostile actions? Yes, of course it would, and does everyday.

Once we all get to that understanding, however, the clincher is what do we do about it? How does society act? Do we censor the content and attempt to lessen its potential impact? Or do we seek to raise awareness of moral responsibility and a truly healthy lifestyle.... I don't know about you lot, but I'd take a wild guess that my government would pick Option No.1 if they could get away with it, as they'd then be seen to be 'doing something'. Whereas influencing the psychology of the next few generations isn't an easy thing to do at all.

I'd almost have sympathy for a knee-jerk reaction by the policy makers, as I'd at least understand their sense of helplessness with what to do.

"If I Ruled The World..."
But do know what Herr Tourist would do if he was in a position of power (and boy, do people NEVER want that to happen!)?

1) I'd channel funds into building mini-parks and play areas in inner cities, along with local community centres

2) I'd increase funding into sports in schools, increase the time-per-week dedicated to sports, and STOP selling off school fields to private companies to build f'ing houses on....

That's just two small-yet-big examples of how this whole pointless 'are videogames/latest scapegoat bad' arguement can be resolved, in the long run.

We're having increasing problems with guncrime and obesity in the UK. And the causes sure ain't Rainbow 6 or GTA.

[ edit: ....or Texas Chainsaw Massacre/films, or hip-hop/music ]

[Dogmantra]

We're having increasing problems with guncrime and obesity in the UK. And the causes sure ain't Rainbow 6 or GTA.

I blame Barbie Horse Adventures... have you seen her face? PURE EVIL!

Seriously though, I am going to sum up what has been said, and will no doubt be repeated.

1. None of us are affected majorly by games
2. None of us think we ever will be
3. Videogames are a minor cause of violence
4. Bad parenting is a bigger cause
5. Scientists are wasting their time on state-the-obvious studies, when they could be finding a cure for cancer
6. Children need to use their imagination more
7. Jeff was in the army
8. Repititions of above points in several different forms

(Oh, and Jeff, what's "outside"?)

[Deandra]

I had to look at the actual research to write a paper while in college about how video game violence affects kids. Unless there have been any major studies in the last 3 years since I did my research, here's the basics of what scientists have found:

- there is a minor correlation between kids playing violent games and kids acting violently, but no proof of causation. In other words, it could be that the same things that cause a kid to play violent games (such as having parents who aren't paying enough attention to them) also causes them to be violent.

- violent video games have been shown to cause a decrease in empathy in children. In other words, if you randomly assign kids to groups that play violent games or nonviolent games, and control for all other outside factors, the kids playing the violent games will feel less sympathy for people in pain, and will be less bothered if they see violence around them.

So, no, games don't turn kids into murderers, but they do become more accepting of violence around them. This worries me quite a bit, but since I still believe in personal responsibility, I think it's the parent's job to keep violent games from their kids, not the government's job to ban games. I do agree with the government imposing their age-based ratings, though.

I'm a total hypocrite as a parent--I play Oblivion, but don't let my daughter watch me while playing it. She doesn't play any games at all, but sometimes I let her type at the computer with WordPad open to type out letters and make patterns with the * and punctuation symbols.

[Dark Lord Cam]

That not hypocrisy!

Thats good parenting...........

[Dogmantra]

I let her type at the computer with WordPad open to type out letters and make patterns with the * and punctuation symbols.

WordPad. The poor man's paint.

[Deandra]

I let her type at the computer with WordPad open to type out letters and make patterns with the * and punctuation symbols.

WordPad. The poor man's paint.

She can't use a mouse well enough to draw with it yet.

Anyway, if she wants to draw things, I'm more than happy to get her some paper and markers and draw with her IRL. The thing about typing out letters is that it's much easier for her to find a letter on the keyboard and press it than it is for her to write out a letter by hand, which is very difficult for her. She's only four years old, after all.

[The King]

While you all were in a heated argument while sharing the same views and agreeing but still arguring, I decided to take a look at things while I wasn't angry, therefore, I have come to the following conclusion.


1. While video games do effect kids it is in an extremely small way and will amount to nothing.

2. Many times the electronic that causes the violence issue is in fact t.v, it introduces words and aspects children wouldn't have learned until a much older age.

3. Bad parenting, that would be numero uno on the list(no.1) of things that need to be changed, and is in fact the cause of90% of the problem.

Last but not least, some people forget that some crimes were done by someone with a mental problem, crazed or in need of phychological help.Other crimes were done by rash decision and passion and heat of the moment.

I believe my findings to be accurate and entirely correct.

[Dark Lord Cam]

Agreed.

[Dogmantra]

1. None of us are affected majorly by games
2. None of us think we ever will be
3. Videogames are a minor cause of violence
4. Bad parenting is a bigger cause
5. Scientists are wasting their time on state-the-obvious studies, when they could be finding a cure for cancer
6. Children need to use their imagination more
7. Jeff was in the army
8. Repititions of above points in several different forms

*cough*King is a copycat *cough*

Deandra: You know I was joking

[The King]

True Dogmantra I'm a copy cat, did you read my post, read two and three, you said nothing about those or the mental thing, my post was completely different, you should read the whole thing.Not that hard.

[Dogmantra]

8. Repititions of the above points in various forms
4. Bad parenting is a bigger cause

^those two make your number 2 & 3, because they're bad parents if they allow their children to be introduced to concepts and words they wouldn't normally be introduced to, due to watching TV for older people.

Besides, the rest wasn't a numbered thing on your list, so that's not the copied part.

[Deandra]

There's no need for either side to get defensive, so let's end this and get back on topic.

[The King]

Sorry, I'll be going back to the oblivion forums.

[Guy No. 2]

Just thought Id add this. Very appropraiate for this thread methinks Unless someone else has posted it then Im sorry......

[The Tourist]

[ King; no one was argueing, and it never got heated. there are simply differences of opinion, but we all more or less have the same concerns. ]

I'd agree with Dogmantra's summation mosty, and I think everyone's seeing different aspects of the problem. But if there's one moderately valuable thing - or at least an observation - that's come from the various responses, is that practically none of these nuances are being acknowledged in the half-arsed debate going on in the mainstream.

Time for another angry face:
"Grand Theft Auto, it's time to ban it" - literally as I typed the above paragraph, yet another talkshow host is making himself sound like an ignorant halfwit (what is it with this subject that makes fairly reasonable people degenerate into reactionary tabloid-isms??).

The game's come up again thanks to the apparent fact that it's been banned in Thailand, after a supposed copycat killing of a taxi driver.

Grand Theft Auto IV is pulled from Thai shops after killing of taxi driver

By Andrew Buncombe, Asia Correspondent [The Independent]
Tuesday, 5 August 2008

One of Thailand's top video games distributors is pulling Grand Theft Auto IV off the shelves after a teenager allegedly robbed and stabbed to death a Bangkok taxi driver in an apparent attempt to recreate a scene from the controversial video game.

Thai police said Polwat Chinno, 18, told them that he was angry his parents could not afford to buy him a copy of the game. "He said he wanted to find out if it was as easy in real life to rob a taxi as it was in the game," said a Bangkok police spokesman, Captain Veerarit Pipatanasak. Mr Polwat was arrested on Saturday night as he tried to steer the taxi backwards down a street with the fatally wounded driver in the back seat. The student allegedly told police he had not intended to kill the cabbie and only wanted to rob him but the driver had fought back with a metal bar. The student, described by his parents as polite and diligent, was said to have stabbed the driver 10 times.

Sakchai Chotikachinda, a spokesman for New Era Interactive Media, said the company was halting sales and recalling Grand Theft Auto IV from its outlets following the crime. The game allows the player to take the role of a criminal, tasked with various missions such as murder and robbery.

A senior official at the Thai Culture Ministry said the murder was a wake-up call for authorities to address the issues of violent video games. The ministry has been calling for tighter restrictions on the sale of the games and the establishment of a rating system. "This time-bomb has already exploded and the situation could get worse," Ladda Thangsupachai, director of the ministry's cultural surveillance centre, told Reuters.

The driver's son, Manon Pohkang, said his father was the family's bread-winner and that he was trying to repay several loans. He added: "He was a nice man, who harmed no one."

Mr Polwat faces the death penalty if convicted of the driver's murder.

[edit: Guy 2 - yes, I quoted the same story. But I did it after you, because the site's temporarily been 'broke' for me, as in pages not loading or giving up before they do. so this post took an absolute age to actually submit successfully, so i didn't see your link ]

[Dark Lord Cam]

Why is it that people only pay attention to things when it goes bad? I mean a game like GTA would be ignored complexity if individuals like this hadn't don anything but then one person does something and says he got the idea from a game and everyone freaks out thinking their kids are being brainwashed by fictional characters in a fictional world. One person out of six billion and everyone freaks out. I just dont get it. The people banning games have never played them and they always tend to exaggerate these things.

I know of one example where people went crazy. MASS EFFECT. thats right. some idiot had lied and said that the game was [&@%!]. he said that that was all you did in the game which as all of us know is not true. It took a lot of people to finally get him to admit to the fact that he had never played the game. madness!