How Much Power do the Thalmor Actually Have?

[Mod-Loving Wood Elf]

Too.... exhausted... to read.... through this entire topic. Especially since the last couple of pages seem to be straying off-topic a bit, and dissolving into the usual Stormcloak-Imperial argument. (sigh)

Anyways, I think the Thalmor have plenty of power. How do you think they defeated the Empire in the first place?

Their main problem, I think, is that they're going to stretch themselves too thin. This is what happens to all empires, eventually.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

How do you think they defeated the Empire in the first place?

They didn't.

[Br3admax]

How do you think they defeated the Empire in the first place?

They didn't.

Even by my standards the Empire just gave up, the Thalmor have never beaten anybody, ever.

[Right-Hand-Of-Sithis]

How do you think they defeated the Empire in the first place?

They didn't.

Even by my standards the Empire just gave up, the Thalmor have never beaten anybody, ever.

Imperial Pyrrhic victory.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

But it's not an Aldmeri victory. Not really a military victory.

[Minor Edits]

Something I've been wanting to bring up for a while: a Skyrim loading screen says, "Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire able to survive the onslaught of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion, and thus end the Great War." Only. That's a word of exclusion indicating that no other course of action was feasible. And this is a message directly from Bethesda, free of the color of any in-game bias. For our purposes here, this might as well be the Word of God.

The point being, for all of our second-guessing, we have it straight from the horse's mouth that signing the WGC was necessary for the Empire's survival. So we can all argue back and forth about whether and when the Empire should've broken the WGC and re-instigated hostilities with the Thalmor, but it's a fact that the Thalmor had them beat at the time.

[Pilaf The Defiler]

Be that as it may, the Aldmeri Dominion had one decisive victory over the Empire, which was quickly overturned. They did not win a war on the battlefield. Cyrodill conceded because of exhaustion and a shortage of supplies and troops.

[Br3admax]

Something I've been wanting to bring up for a while: a Skyrim loading screen says, "Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire able to survive the onslaught of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion, and thus end the Great War." Only. That's a word of exclusion indicating that no other course of action was feasible. And this is a message directly from Bethesda, free of the color of any in-game bias. For our purposes here, this might as well be the Word of God.

The point being, for all of our second-guessing, we have it straight from the horse's mouth that signing the WGC was necessary for the Empire's survival. So we can all argue back and forth about whether and when the Empire should've broken the WGC and re-instigated hostilities with the Thalmor, but it's a fact that the Thalmor had them beat at the time.

That's how you stop most Nords, who make up a large portion of your army and died for you, not beat your head in with an ax.

[Woodhouse]

But could the civil war's reanactment of king rebel observer been just what mundus needed to not fall apart after the ban of talos worship?

Lorkhan works in mysterious ways, and will almost certainly find a way around any thalmor laws.

[BetaB17]

The deadra are bound to act long before lorkhan does>_> but when he does... great changes follow

[Da_BossMaN69]

To me the best comparison of the Great War is the war of 1812, America as the Empire and Dominion as the British.

Now the war was a tactical victory for the Empire, they won the battles in Cyrodiil and repulsed the invaders, the Elves now longer had a hold in the province, if the enemy wants point A, and they're on point B and despite all the bloodshed, deaths, and victories they're still on point B, they lose simple as that.

The problem was once they defeated the Dominion, they had exhausted so many resources and it cost too many lives for them to mount a counter-offensive, and to even hold their line, now granted that the latter is unnecessary considering the Elves had no army really after the campaign to attack with, but the point still stood that both armies were at a standstill.

So Mede took the easy way out and signed the treaty, and while in hind sight it may have seemed a bad choice, it was really the only choice, because he couldn't attack the elves he had no men to do so, and could he know for certain that he had defeated the Dominion truly? It's not like the Thalmor would say 'Uncle', he took the safe bet, and strategically it was a mistake.

As to Ulfric's rebellion weakening Skyrim, that's only true depending on what your bias is. If you side with the Empire than his victory is most obviously a blow to them, but if you're talking about the province's status, than it's only true if the war is allowed to be at a standstill.

The USSR was at it's strongest during WW2 after the war. Why? Because it had mobilized it's population for war, armed and trained it, fortified it's borders, and produce countless arms,munitions and weapons.

The same could only be true for Ulfric, so he loses many men taking the Empire, then what? He now sits on a naturally fortified province with thousands of battle hardened veterans a mobilized and exuberant population, and all the resources he could want.

Why is this the case? Because once the tide turns in the war you have an ever weakening enemy, an army that is bolstered in morale by it's frequent victories, and enjoy the spoils of war that come with these victories, the natural selection of your soldiers, so to speak that comes if these battles.

This is in the modern age where the gun can render skill nearly useless, even SEALS/SAS/DELTA can be killed by a stray and/or lucky bullet. Where as in the age of sword and bow, battle are decided by skill of the individual and not so much luck.

And your populace is motivated to continue to work to defeat the enemy, "you're so close, don't stop now", and agaisnt such a weakened enemy you will not the supplies that may be produced by this populace causing a surplus for the next war if it comes.

[Br3admax]

The deadra are bound to act long before lorkhan does>_> but when he does... great changes follow

They don't even care; why would they react?

[Dunmerdude]

If Ulfric wins the Civil war the Thalmor will use it as Casus Belli for Round Two. At this point the Empire can't win that war. They couldn't win it intact, never mind while fighting in Skyrim at the same time and with no Allies.

Here's a related question, how is the Dominion ruled? Do they have a Monarch, is it a Council, an Alliance of city states, a Theocracy? I don't think Skyrim ever clears that up.

[CBR JGWRR]

They used to have a monarchy, however one of the steps the Thalmor took upon taking power was to get rid of them. Now it's essentially a single party police state, ruled from a single city on the south-west isle of the Summerset Isles, named Alinor, which they've also named the whole province to. Bosmeri and Khajiit have minor influence.

The Empire isn't actually trying to win the war - it's relying on Tullius and local recruits to do it, their forces are still on the Valenwood and Elsweyr borders as they've always been.

[Minor Edits]

If Ulfric wins the Civil war the Thalmor will use it as Casus Belli for Round Two. At this point the Empire can't win that war. They couldn't win it intact, never mind while fighting in Skyrim at the same time and with no Allies.

Here's a related question, how is the Dominion ruled? Do they have a Monarch, is it a Council, an Alliance of city states, a Theocracy? I don't think Skyrim ever clears that up.

There's no information on the leadership of the Thalmor. Might be something in ESO, though. It's best not form assumptions about things we have scarce knowledge of.

[Velothi]

At worst - the Thalmor are like the CIA in it's Zenith of the 50s and 60s, literally controlling Fronts within Fronts that maintain the Empire as a puppet. Making sure they can properly dismantle Talos from his Throne.

In the least - the Thalmor are upstarts like Titus Mede. They're arrogant, like the Empire, and think they'll lead the world to a better life. More specifically Mer-life. They, as a comparison to say Russia under Alexsei Romanovich, Second Romanov Tsar of the Moscovy Kingdom, are like the Swedes and Poles. They have the slight advantage, but really, they didn't gain total victory. If anything it's just a stalemate. like Alexsei, the next Emperor will be biding his time and using his resources to modernize and centralize the Empire to make sure it can survive another Great War. The Thalmor (who lost a LOT to the Yokudan in Hammerfell, and lost their entre invasion-force in the war against the Empire) will try the same.

Really - both of them are like Germany after WW2. Except there is some formal government, but it's pretty much destroyed. the Thalmor likely used much of it's resources to commit to that war. They have to rebuild and make sure they can still fight a weakened Empire. the Empire, with five provinces, basically overturned the war. But they also want to make sure these new provinces have little to no resources, so that no matter who wins. The empire, or new nation, will become easy targets.

[CBR JGWRR]

There's no information on the leadership of the Thalmor. Might be something in ESO, though. It's best not form assumptions about things we have scarce knowledge of.

Not quite that little.

ESO won't reveal anything about the Thalmor except how they worked in a earlier Aldmeri Dominion...

[Pilaf The Defiler]

For all we know, the Thalmor may not even be a thing yet in the AD presented to us in ESO. The Thalmor is the ruling body of the AD currently, and previously during the Tiber Wars. They lost power after that defeat and did not gain it again for 800 years, to our knowledge. Losing a war and the sovereignty of your nation against a human is something the other Altmer don't take kindly to. It's no wonder the Thalmor were tossed out.

In any event, ESO takes place before either of those conflicts/world events, so we have no idea if the Thalmor exists or is a ruling body. There is mention of Justiciars in the Queen's biography, but those may not be of the same variety we know in the 4th era.

I should also mention there may have been an even older Aldmeri Dominion during the Reman era if a certain note in the First PGE margin is to be believed. An Aldmeri agent scribbled that the Dominion had accommodated Reman and his ambitions but that they should not do so with Talos. If that's true then the AD existed in the First Era, too, but perhaps on a smaller scale.

[CBR JGWRR]

Well the principle of the Dominion has existed since the Aldmeri first split after all. Wouldn't surprise me one bit if there was. Don't know how you got 800, I'd say 460 odd, they took power in Summerset early into the 4th era, which is 434 years after Tiber won with his god from the machine.

The Thalmor did exist back then, but they held a more advisory role as opposed to the ruling position they have in the current Dominion. As to how ESO displays them isn't known yet...

[Pilaf The Defiler]

I always get the timespan of the Third era confused with earlier eras. It's quite a short one, isn't it? I was sure it was closer to 800 years but you're right. In any event, they lost power presumably shortly after Numidium crushed their naval forces and laid siege to Alinor.

[CBR JGWRR]

Yeah, it is. Less than 1 elven lifespan...

[Velothi]

I always get the timespan of the Third era confused with earlier eras. It's quite a short one, isn't it? I was sure it was closer to 800 years but you're right. In any event, they lost power presumably shortly after Numidium crushed their naval forces and laid siege to Alinor.

But one wonders.

What happened to the Aldmeri Dominon (which implies that those in the Dominon of Aldmeris - The First of Mers, Adais of Altmer) inbetween the Fall of the Reman Empire and the Camoran Uprising?

Or are to assume that this /is/ the Aldmeri Dominion that used the civil War in Valenwood to take control?

[Wings_Of_Evana]

They dont need to lead, the emperor does anything they do when they say so. The empire is the only thing keeping the dominion out of skyrim because it is letting them prepare for the next War so the thalmor do not need to enter skyrim before they are ready. The empire is probably preparing on their own but they are afraid to face the dominion once again or at least their leader is.

Pretty much, it's almost like a Vichy France situation to me.

[Tosh Raka]

They do not have as much power as it seems. There are a few reasons why they "won" the great war. 1. Deception and surprise. 2. Overall weakness of the empire at the time and so forth. However it has been shown that despite the Dominon's overwhelming force they were fought to a standstill by Hammerfell. Also contributing to that is the constant guerilla war tactics employed by Alik'r tribesmen. One has to keep in mind that the Thalmors power is strictly in their military. The political element back home is no different than what you'd find in prague and other parts of Europe during WWII. This is why they constantly have those "purges" that delphine mentions. Even Khajiit don't necessarily like them. Talking with Ri'saad reveals his disdain for the thalmor and how they give all khajiit a bad name. Finally keep in mind High Rock and it's Breton warriors were embroiled in political struggle. So again most of the Thalmor's success is only by sheer oppurtunity. i.e. taking credit for resolving the Oblivion Crisis.