World Map filled in from the start vs. fog of war

[Railboy]

Hello, everyone. I've got a question for you: in your RPGs, do you like it when you can see the whole world map from the start, a la TES? Or do you prefer a fog-of-war approach, where you don't see the shape of the region until you've actually explored it? And if you prefer fog of war, what RPGs have you seen that do it well?

I'm working on an exploration game with a large world map like TES. My plan has always been to use fog of war, but I'm thinking of taking it out because I recently realized that I can't think of a time when knowing the shape of the world beforehand has diminished the experience of exploring that world. So I'm not sure if I can justify the added complexity.

The deck might be a bit stacked around here but all the same I wanted to see what you guys think. Thanks for your input!

[cybrxkhan]

I think it depends on the situation. In Skyrim, it makes sense that your character would know what the world looks like before you start the game - maps are all over the place, major cities are well known and are the only locations shown on the in-game map since, well, they are the ones shown there.

However, if the game starts with a character who is thrown into a foreign land they know nothing about, for instance, then a fog of war would make sense.

I think it depends on what you're aiming for with the overall game experience.

[dzio]

^This. If the character is a native, let them see the general world map with major landmarks, especially if the world is not ridiculously huge. If it is, or if a character is thrown into an alternate reality, distant unexplored continent or something like that, show only the area immediately around the starting location and let the player explore the rest.

[POMC S117]

I think it should probably be a full map from the start if the character should be familiar with the land and fog if the character isn't. Basically, what has already been said.

Maybe you could even give the player an option? For example, if they wanted to RP that their character was from a distant land, they could make it a fog of war. If they wanted to RP their character knowing about the land then you could make it a full map.

[Railboy]

In this case it does make sense for the player to start with the civilized world mapped, but on the other hand, from a gameplay perspective the experience is about exploration. So it seems odd to start with so much revealed. That's why I'm torn.

>Maybe you could even give the player an option?

That's a good idea... if I use fog of war I'll definitely include an option to have it off for civilized parts of the world.

I've still got to decide if FOW is even worth including, though. The only RPG that I can remember with FOW on the main map was Fallout / Fallout 2. And as much as I loved that game I remember feeling chafed by it at times. Have any of you played an RPG with FOW that added to the experience and made it more fun?

[Musicman247]

Morrowind had FOW, I believe. Oblivion gave you a parchment-looking map with nothing but main cities marked on it. That's the way I would go. Have a simple map in the player's inventory with major cities marked already, as any country with trade routes would probably have something like that available for purchase.

[DorostheConqueror]

Why would you make a game where the player has to explore a land he already knows?

I guess your question is best answered with another question: When you say it's an "exploration game", what do you mean, exactly? Are we to assume that the act of exploration is going to be main focus of it's gameplay? Or is it a standard hack-some-monsters RPG with an explorer plot?

[Railboy]

>Why would you make a game where the player has to explore a land he already knows?

I agree, it doesn't make sense.

>Are we to assume that the act of exploration is going to be main focus of it's gameplay?

Exactly - there are some other RPG elements, but the focus is exploration above all else. The exploration focus is what muddled the issue for me. It felt 'wrong' to have the player already know the lay of the land in an exploration game, even if knowing made more logical sense.

Oblivion gave you a parchment-looking map with nothing but main cities marked on it. That's the way I would go. Have a simple map in the player's inventory with major cities marked already, as any country with trade routes would probably have something like that available for purchase.

I'm leaning towards this for simplicity's sake. So far I haven't heard anyone - here or elsewhere - say they minded seeing a simple map of the region up front. And I also haven't heard anyone say FOW made exploration more fun, either. So I'm thinking I'll just axe it.

[Taters]

Moving this to Multimedia.

[DorostheConqueror]

If actual exploration is a major part of the gameplay, then you need FOW. I'd also recommend random map generation, at least for parts of the world; that'll give the game more replay value.

There's a lot of games that include exploration - every 4X game ever made, for example - but it's usually just one small part of the experience. Of these, I think the best exploration gameplay can be found in Europa Universalis (because exploring is really slow and difficult, you really feel like you're gradually pushing the boundaries of the known world) and X (because of the sheer size of the space you have to poke around in).

The only game I can think of that focuses on exploration above all else is Uncharted Waters; if you haven't played the series, you might want to check it out (UW: New Horizons is easy to get if you have a SNES emulator). It uses FOW and a partly randomized map (the locations of treasures and minor villages vary from game to game). The FOW is a huge help; the game takes place in the real world, so you probably have a basic of where you're at and where you're going at all times, but seeing the fog peeling back, inch by inch, sometimes makes you forget that you already knew what was over that hill.

[Railboy]

I'd also recommend random map generation

That ship has sailed - procedural would be awesome, but I'm limited to hand-sculpted terrain at this point. There's some randomization in the structures, though.

Uncharted Waters

Hadn't heard of that one, I'll take a look. Thanks!

[DorostheConqueror]

Apparently there's a fancy new MMO; I can't speak to it's quality, because I've never played it, but the old ones are pretty much required playing if you plan on making an exploration game.

Fansite, includes abandonware downloads.

'nother question: is your game going to focus on overland exploration, naval exploration, a bit of both, or something else entirely? (Airship Surveyors 2: This Time It's Personal!)

[the Savage Hippie]

Morrowind had FOW, I believe. Oblivion gave you a parchment-looking map with nothing but main cities marked on it. That's the way I would go. Have a simple map in the player's inventory with major cities marked already, as any country with trade routes would probably have something like that available for purchase.

Would be cool, if it actually was a purchasable item, that you did not carry from the start. ES-wise...

[The SheoDovah]

If your game features exploration as one of the main features, i would reccomend fog of war to give players an incentive to explore but include in game maps that you can purchase which reveals more of the world or just the cities or just do what Bethesda did with Oblivion and only have the cities on the map to begin with. As well as giving the player a reason to have the map for roleplay purposes as it is never explained how the hero ends up with a map in TES. I seriously doubt that prisoners are given maps. The Dovahkiin has more leeway with this due to Bethesda not starting him/her off in a cell.

If you plan to have a big world, it's probably best to include random generation for minor locations and spend the rest of your resources on the unique locations. Or just take a leaf out of Bioware's book and use the same 5 maps.

[onewithchaos]

For me it depends.

I love the exploration aspect and not knowing whats around the corner. Also if its FOW I can see where I have explored and where I have not explored. Like Morrowind for example. Do to the Fog Of War aspect of the game it was easy to see where you have been and where you have not been. I really need to pull that game out again.


I like not knowing whats around the corner.

I'm the sort who has to explore every square inch of the map lol.

But like its been said above me, if they have been to the land and they are familiure with it, then the FOW aspect does not make sence.


I suppose this is my first real post so a heads up, I absolutely suck at spelling and grammar.