Doctor Who

[dzio]

Agreed,

Spoiler:

of all the NewWho companions I liked her the least. And I think that in Season 4 finale she was horrible and annoying. Before they introduced Hurt as the Doctor I thought the 50th may deal with Eleven somehow breaking into Pete's World, or Rose and Ten-Two returning to the original universe, but now it looks like they're grabbing Ten from some point in his timeline before Doomsday, so Rose will be very much Rose-like, and not an older Rose, with several years of extra experience and hopefully reduced annoyance factor.

[Edit] Damn, so sorry!!! I made a typo and the spoiler tags didn't work. I hope I didn't spoil the finale for anyone...

[Kerr]

Spoiler:

I think that Hurt may be the real 9. Reason he isn't calling himself the doctor is because of what he did in the time war. I've heard no clasic doctors will be in the 50th. That's a shame. Hell McGann only got one tv appearance. The episode referenced tbe Valeyard. I wonder if it will end up being meta crisis Tennant.

[Veck]

This thread should be open to debates about why the current incarnation is such a sack of [&@%!]. I'm going with executive meddling.

[dzio]

Veck, I'm going to generously postpone biting your head off until you had a chance to explain yourself.

[Veck]

Well, to explain myself you'd have to agree with me on my opinion that the show's writing has gone downhill considerably.

[p-sto]

I actually like Matt Smith's portrayal of the Doctor a lot. In my opinion Tennant was better at emotional moments but I find Smith to be more charismatic overall.

As for the show's writing, yes the plots have been less compelling for the past half season but shows go through lulls at times.

[dzio]

Oh boy. Have you even seen what was happening in the last years of Classic Who? The very worst parts of New Who are rainbow-sprinkled, tears-of-joy-inducing, pure genius in comparison.

Also, unless you tell me why exactly you think that, I'm going to have no choice but to assume you are one of those unfortunate people who pop up in every fandom and call every single change of direction a betrayal and every new showrunner/star is ruining their beloved show (which doesn't take itself half as seriously as the part of the fandom that competes for "The Best Wet Blanket" title).

Personally I rather like the idea that every new Doctor is different and does things that the previous incarnations wouldn't, as well as extending storylines for several season, instead of focusing purely on monster-of-the-week episodes, and companions who have actual backstories and their own motivations. Sure, Moffat is not perfect as a showrunner, but neither was RTD, or any of the Classic Who people. And if we wait for that golden god of tv-perfection to descend to the BBC studios, we're all going to die of old age before we see something that's good enough for us.

[Edit]: Or are you just talking about that hitch in the last half-season that p-sto just mentioned, instead of claiming that the entire show is on a downhill path to tv-hell?

[Veck]

No, I'm claiming that the entire show is on a downward path. The main examples I usually quote are that utterly abysmal and completely meaningless episode with the Minotaur in the hotel and that one with the cubes where the writers missed the entire point of a mystery plot by revealing absolutely everything in the last 20 seconds and making it really crap to boot. Has Doctor Who's writing ever been truly good? Maybe not. Deus Ex Machinas and horrible season wrap-ups have always been hallmarks of it even back in the Russel T Davies days. But as someone who takes bad writing techniques and cliches far more seriously than she should I've become increasingly disillusioned with the show retreading old ground a billion times over and putting together all-round terrible episodes rather than just good episodes with terrible finales. It certainly isn't the fault of the actors as Matt Smith is easily on par with Ecclescakes and Tenant while Amy was probably the best companion the show's ever had, and Moffat evidently isn't a bad writer because Sherlock exists and is amazing. I blame it on the BBC who likely saw the "mature" half of the show's fans as so rabidly obsessed with everything Who that they don't need to cater to them one bit to get them to watch it. Where's the big market for expanding into for viewing figures and merch? Kids.

I'm not saying the show's gone bad because it hasn't and I'd say it currently has the potential to be better than it currently is. It just needs some execs that treat it with respect instead of as a cash cow to milk maximum profits out of by cutting the budget and streamlining the kiddie appeal.

[dzio]

So I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, because I see a basically awesome show with occasionally lousy elements (including occasionally lousy writing), and judging by the first paragraph of your post, you see a mediocre and cliche-ridden kids' show with identity crisis and rare moments of brilliance. In which case - why would you watch it? There are several shows I used to watch but after a while my opinion about the quality of writing became something like what you're saying about Doctor Who, and so I just stopped.

And Doctor Who is always going to be made for kids, at least in part. That's the whole point of the show. That's how it started and that's what it always should be. The genius, for me, is in making something parents can watch with their kids and enjoy it just as much as the kids do, both because of the nostalgia they feel for the show they remember from their own childhood, and because of the more grown-up elements of the show now. "Treating the show with respect" is not the same as cutting out the colourful kid stuff, goofy monsters, growing up stories and the silliness. That would be the exact opposite of respect, given the show's history.

[Chaos the N'wah]

To be honest, I kinda have to agree with Veck as writing within last two seasons all seem to follow the same boring pattern: Doctor arrives and samples the locale, companion disappears, some big happens like people dying, companion threatened, doctor [&@%!], companion saves doctor from himself, problem solved and we get story time with the Doctor wrapping everything up; throw in all too frequent paradoxes and whatever overarcing plot point at the end (Crack in the wall).

In particular, some episodes just feel like they lined up a bunch of old stories/myths and threw a dart (The God Complex - aka Minotaur in a hotel) or made two wheels with a bunch of nouns on both and spun them to see how they could mash them together (Dinosaurs on a spaceship)

That's not to say good writing doesn't happen, episodes like Blink or Silence in the library pop up at least once in a while to give us something to chew on

What I find lacking is the unanswered questions, things like the so called "Dream lord" appearing at the end to cast doubt or foreshadow that the battle was won, but the war is not over.
That and genuinely threatening enemies (Though I was glad to see enemies actually winning for a change), the weeping angels are good, but they need more, not every enemy needs to be some goofy fish-vampire or giant fireball planet, things like vashta nerada that pose a more natural but dangerous threat.

[dzio]

I agree with the "too many paradoxes" thing and some episodes connecting seemingly random ideas, but I think that the rest of it is just the simple consequence of Doctor Who being, at its heart, a kids' show. That's why grown ups see cliches and repeats of the same ideas - children stories have always revolved around a number of basic tropes and images and required a definite conclusion to the plot. This is something that doesn't really work in a show aimed at the adult audience, but is perfectly fine with kids. Doctor Who is in a difficult position somewhere in the middle and it often leaves one of the target audiences unhappy - kids if they go too far with darker themes, emotional drama or long and complex story arcs, and adults if they try to make something more accessible to children.

[Chaos the N'wah]

But that's the problem, Doctor Who should be a family show first, not catering directly towards kids like the Sara Jane Chronicles, but rather striving for clean entertainment enjoyable for all ages, just because there's a complicated plot doesn't mean kids won't like it, it just means there needs to be enough action and simple humor to engage them while older audiences appreciate what is happening essentially in the background.

Honestly, how many times do we need the Doctor to charge out of his blue box talking excitedly about a time and location, only to trail off as he realizes that he isn't there and he looks apologetic to his companion?
It's to the point that even kids who watch Dora the Explorer would call it repetitive

[dzio]

Okay, then I suppose I have higher tolerance for repetitive material than Dora the Explorer target audience, because it doesn't annoy me at all.

I'm not saying the show is always fantastic and I'm not saying there were no facepalm-inducing moments in the last couple seasons, but I honestly don't see this horrid downward spiral you guys seem to be seeing there. It gets better, it gets worse, but in the end it's been entertaining the world for 50 years. And I hope it will keep on entertaining for many years to come.

[Chaos the N'wah]

We're not openly condemning it down the retcon toilet, we're just holding it at a higher standard and looking for improvement
In the end, we like the series to the point that we don't stop watching it outright and continue to watch in the hopes that it improves and ages gracefully, just without holding back any punches.

[Veck]

Also they need to bring Torchwood back. If I had Torchwood to watch I wouldn't give a damn about what happened to Doctor Who any more.

[The SheoDovah]

Most of the Smith's doctor series has been average at best. However, it does seem to be getting better due to the recent plot not being one plot that is hinted at throughout the series. Well, apart from Clara, there is not much to go on thus making the finale a surprise. Hopefully, they won't have him die or reboot time or anything that they already have done as that is predictable. True, Tennant's doctor had some rubbish episodes but it seems that Smith is unlucky enough to get the most amount of rubbish out of the 3 Doctors since the show was bought back.

And yeah, they should bring back torchwood. And ignore that US/UK effort one as that was full of holes and i didn't like the style of it.

Spoiler:

The Tardis warehouse wasn't resolved and that ending was [&@%!]. Jack is a fixed point in time so his blood doesn't matter. It just means that he can't stay dead untill i assume, he reaches that point in time otherwise, a time paradox would happen. His blood? Really? And the earth itself was causing it? And the Doctor didn't even get involved. It would have been nice if he made a cameo in that special but oh well. I am aware it's a spin off but that hasn't stopped him from appearing in other spin offs.

[Kerr]

Damn right we need more Torchwood.

@Dovah
I think the reason he hasn't shown up is so children aren't encouraged to watch it. At least that's what I've heard. Besides, the Doctor won't always be there to save them. Example, the end of Tennant's first series. That's why we have Torchwood.

[The SheoDovah]

True. We need more Torchwood and for it to be made by the BBC only judging by the quailty of the last series which was made by NBC and the BBC. I think.

[Taters]

I shall now perform CPR on this thread.

Any guesses/thoughts on who the 12th doctor will be?

[The-Shadow-One]

The guy they shown (John Hurt? Is that his name?)

[Taters]

I doubt John Hurt will play the next doctor. I think it's more likely he'll be some past incarnation or something.

[The-Shadow-One]

Possible with the reactions... But.. Is it wrong I hope for a gender bender Doctor?

[dzio]

It definitely isn't. I'd love to see a lady Doctor, as long as they don't make the entire season a running gag about "him" getting used to being "her". Still, if that ever happens, they must bring Jack back, at least for one episode.

And about John Hurt - read the rest of this thread, we've exchanged some ideas with Chaos. And I'm standing by mine - he's a younger incarnation, the one who fought the Time War, so we're going to see a new face next year.

[Taters]

I'd love to see a lady Doctor, too. Lady ginger would be even better.

[Dark Spark]

They should make the next Doctor in puppet form, like the Muppets. Imagine the savings!